News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by badrabbit on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:33PM (#31043925)
They disabled windows update because it is spyware? Are they providing their own filtered update channel??

Ok, so PSA: if you don't want "Spyware" don't use windows. In Forensics, you learn there are many many ways windows tracks what you do, some of which can be disabled but it is all architectures into the OS. If you looked at a specific folder in explorer, that can be proven in court, executed a specific program? At least 4-5 ways come to mind . Take a peek at c:\windows\system32\winevt\logs\ (equivalent of /var/log/) and that's just one place.

I mean the spyware has measurable and valuable security benefits. If you wanna really test your malware dev skills, leave cloud submission turned on Defender and write any basic malware (harmful not just undesirable) and avoid detection for longer than a day. It was very hard when I tried it (for legit purposes).

I bash on Linux because of all its problems (only because I love it and want to see it improve) but if you want privacy, use Linux, the cliche holds true. You can always use windows in vbox+seamless mode for most things or on a separate device if you can afford it.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by heyoni on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:42PM (#31044050)
Some of us have windows just to play games, sometimes on our tv’s with a controller but that’s impossible when you have garbage popping up constantly. There’s definitely a demand for windows that can play games and do nothing else.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by AQuantized on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:46PM (#31044105)
Proton is incredibly impressive nowadays, even when dealing with highly invasive anticheat services. I think there are only a small handful of games in my steam library where it doesn't work well. Within 5 years I think most of the remaining friction to gaming on linux will be gone.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by heyoni on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:21PM (#31044580)
It's what I'll probably end up doing when I have the energy but my wife is a bit techphobic and enjoys playing some games since setting up the PC on the TV but will abandon everything if linux starts getting in the way :D
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by yjftsjthsd-h on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:51PM (#31044968)
Will she abandon everything if Windows starts getting in the way?
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by alpaca128 on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:42PM (#31046230)
Yes, but like always this is dependent on hardware and drivers. Which is a reason I'm excited about the Steam Deck and potential future devices. Hardware built by Valve has most likely the best compatibility.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by jmckib on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:50PM (#31044175)
I was the steamlink app on Apple TV and I haven't had any issues with garbage popping up and interrupting me, and I haven't made any tweaks to Windows. Just letting you know in case you'll find it useful.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by heyoni on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:19PM (#31044543)
Isn't that a streaming solution?
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by jmckib on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:53PM (#31044993)
Yeah, I can't say I've noticed any latency though, as long as I've got an ethernet connection set up. Also a good idea to turn on whatever your "game mode" is on the TV. I use one of those flat ethernet cables and run it under my living room rug to my TV.

I imagine using steam in big picture mode would be equivalent if you're not streaming though. Maybe it's something else, I just can't remember a Windows pop-up ever interrupting my gaming whether I'm playing on my TV or not.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by alar44 on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:59PM (#31044272)
Garbage popping up constantly? No idea what you're talking about.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by littlecranky67 on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:05PM (#31044351)
My rudimentary Win10 setup is such a gaming-only system, only Apps installed are Steam, GoG, Epic and Origin. The Spam that comes from those apps aside (mostly sales popup banners/notifications), I still receive the occasional "Your windows is at risk because you don't use OneDrive", or "Windows Defender has not found anything" or "Hey, this is our new Edge browser we installed and placed a shortcut on your desktop, want to make it your default browser now?" spam.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by LinuxBender on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:42PM (#31044861)
Some of that can be disabled with "O&O ShutUp10" or with some of the debloating scripts various people have created over time also mentioned in this thread.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by littlecranky67 on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:51PM (#31044965)
Yes you can alaways mod the system, but please re-read the thread. I answered to the question what spam windows generates. Saying there is no spam because you can run a script to minimize, is like saying you don't receive spam mails because you run a spamfilter.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by LinuxBender on Friday April 15, 2022 @09:04PM (#31048009)
I get what you mean. I fought a similar battle back in 2013 when a document was proposed to the IETF, never ratified but yet network engineers everywhere adopted it and the anti-spam industry exploded. I somethings think these things are under-engineered on purpose so that friends of friends can create new business models.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by heyoni on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:17PM (#31044515)
Driver popups. I made the mistake of buying a razer keyboard and microsoft update itself is pushing to download their companion app each time it does an update. It's a thing, look it up. There are workarounds but they don't survive multiple rounds of updates.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by runjake on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:34PM (#31044753)
I roughly followed the steps comment "NuttyX" mentioned about disabling autorun years ago and I haven't seen a Razer nag since.

Bonus: disabling autorun is better security!

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by heyoni on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:38PM (#31044802)
I’ll try it. I followed the advice of a razer employee who messaged me on Reddit and it worked for a while.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by alar44 on Saturday April 16, 2022 @03:27PM (#31055311)
I have a razor mouse and this has never happened to me.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by heyoni on Saturday April 16, 2022 @05:54PM (#31056438)
Then I envy you. It’s not some big secret but it definitely happens with my keyboard. Maybe it’s loading it from the keyboard itself? Either way it only happens during windows updates
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by badrabbit on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:00PM (#31044282)
Probably push notification spam enabled by some laptop makers by default.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by dangus on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:49PM (#31044937)
> garbage popping up constantly

I don't think there's a need to dramatize and exaggerate. Once you get setup on Windows and uninstall the stuff you want to uninstall that’s pretty much the end of it.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by legalcorrection on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:20PM (#31044566)
So you play games with Windows security updates turned off? Why don't you just post all of your passwords and bank accounts on the internet and save yourself the trouble of waiting to get hacked.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by brimble on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:32PM (#31044735)
IDK about other folks, but very few of my passwords and nothing that'd get you direct access to any of my bank accounts touches my Window gaming machine (which is also my only Windows machine)

Important account credentials are on macOS or iOS. Local copies of my important files are on a system running Linux, and the Windows machine doesn't have access to that (doesn't need to, all I do on it is play games, if I didn't PC game I wouldn't have Windows at all).

[EDIT] However, mine does have Windows Update turned on.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by yjftsjthsd-h on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:55PM (#31045003)
They specifically said

>> Some of us have windows just to play games

What bank accounts do you think are on that machine? Perhaps it's risking credentials to ex. Steam and such, but again, if all you run is games where are you getting malware from?

Edit: Actually, to steel man the argument: If you pirate a game and get a keylogger that way, and then type in your credit card to buy a game (ex. on Steam), then you'd have a problem. I maintain that it's perfectly possible to maintain a... "DMZ PC" for games, but there are ways for it to end badly.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by JoeMamaAME on Friday April 15, 2022 @10:16PM (#31048613)
I think you severely overestimate how important security updates are.
[dead]
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by legalcorrection on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:27PM (#31044657)
Hope there's no microphone or webcam connected to your computer, because an attacker can listen or watch. Also, your firewall is worthless because attackers have a foothold inside your network. Also, hope you don't use the same user/password combination on any windows machines or SMB shares on your network, because those are now pwned too. Buy a game, credit card info stolen.

This is just such a preposterous way to operate.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by heyoni on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:30PM (#31044692)
I run a wire to the unit next door and use my neighbor's internet and all the microphones have been covered with blue tapes and the webcams are pointing at my bird cage.

I can't wait to install this.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by mdoms on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:50PM (#31044172)
It's "impossible" to play games on Windows because "you have garbage popping up constantly"? Sorry what are you talking about? I, like millions of people, play games all the time on my Windows PC and don't encounter this problem. It's most certainly not "impossible".

> There’s definitely a demand for windows that can play games and do nothing else.

It's called a "games console". Microsoft makes one called XBox.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by Shared404 on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:59PM (#31044267)
I like being able to play without needing a cloud account. Can XBox do that?

I like being able to use emulators. Can XBox do that?

I like being able to use mod's for any given game. Can XBox do that?

I use Linux for my gaming these days because I just don't like Windows, but even Windows is much more powerful for gaming than a console.

There's a place for console's, but they don't replace everything.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by darkteflon on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:40PM (#31046205)
I say this as a console guy since the 1980s: There’s also a huge chunk of PC games that have not and will not find their way across to console. Classic games, indie titles, niche tastes, etc. If I want to play Stalker, CDDA, Cogmind, Caves of Qud, DCS World or even the (extremely popular) Escape from Tarkov, I can’t do any of that on Xbox.

PC gaming is a weird and wonderful ocean; console gaming more like a highly curated pond.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by yjftsjthsd-h on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:58PM (#31045044)
> I like being able to play without needing a cloud account. Can XBox do that?

I suspect XBox isn't good for this, but the Nintendo Switch is actually probably better than a PC for this particular usecase.

The general-purpose stuff (emulators, mods) I agree with, though.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by Shared404 on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:22PM (#31046007)
Good point on the Switch, I own both and would agree there. PC is defintely better than XBox (Account on PC is frequently required to purchase, but not to play).

XBox I actually called out specifically because when we got an XBox 1, we discovered there is no way to do anything - setup of the console, launching a game, etc - without having an XBox Live account per user of the machine.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by heyoni on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:15PM (#31044485)
I only have ps5 and a switch. I never knew microsoft got into gaming recently. Cool thanks. /s
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by cm2187 on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:40PM (#31044021)
Not defending this thing, but logging events and uploading them to the mothership are two very different things. To your own admission /var/log on linux.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by badrabbit on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:48PM (#31044140)
Depends on your definition I suppose. The fact that it is sitting there to be accessed by any program is a problem for some but I agree, sending it over the network is what most people worry about. Most evtx logs are not sent to the "mothership" but other telmetry and security logs like defender logs might be by default. There is also cloud submission which sends MS random suspect files for analysis.

Also, closed source means it is hard for me to be sure which of those logs are sent to MS.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by jve on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:35PM (#31045498)
I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure particular logs are NOT accessible by Builtin\Users. Particularly Security log.

But comparing logging to spyware is nuts.

Event logs are just one of endpoints for event tracing mechanism and event viewer is just one crappy UI for that. You can turn on/off various logging to your hearts desire, including various diagnostic/tracing info. You can go all the way to capture stack traces, cpu context switches and whatnot. Windows is pretty configurable in this regard.

Also telemetry is well documented and configurable: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/configure-w...

Defender doesn't hide option for cloud based scanning and it is up-front in settings. I dunno if it is enabled by default or not, but in our org, we had to explicitly rollout changes to enable it (we are pretty locked down by default)

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by badrabbit on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:28PM (#31046069)
First, I never said any of this was hidden or in secret. Second, event logs are just one of many places where activity is tracked. Most of them are harmless but many will keep a record of what is being done on the system in a way that isn't obvious to the user of the system. Lastly, installed programs don't need to be builtin\users they can run elevated or in any group, you are assuming only accidentally opened programs are risky?

The subject here is personal use, not corporate use. For example you might torrent a movie and then uninstall the torrent application, files and downloaded content. If you get sued and (i know it is rare) your windows install is submitted as evidence it can be proven that you executed the torrent program, the torrent program transferred so many bytes and that you opened the folder of the torrented content without looking at any file directly related to the torrent app or windows event logs. Or let's say you downloaded content from a site but then cleared your browing history and uninstalled your browser. Thanks to motw the downloaded files on your pc show the sites frol where you downloaded them and the referrer that lead to you visiting the download link. These are only some examples.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by jiggawatts on Friday April 15, 2022 @06:48PM (#31046886)
Most operating systems log things —- it’s a feature. Most consumer software collects telemetry —- irrespective of platform.

Have a look at what a typical Android phone sends out! Including your GPS location! Apple isn’t immune either because the Facebook SDK that’s included with everything would make the NSA blush. TikTok even tracks your phone motion sensor.

IMHO raging about 30-year old diagnostic features is misplaced anger. Be angry about how every piece of software now goes through these stages:

1) Opt-out telemetry only collecting the important stuff, we promise!

2) Okay, collecting it synchronously was a mistake and it slowed down everything for everyone that’s not sitting in our head office. We fixed it though, don’t worry!

3) Umm.. apparently some people are behind corporate web proxies which makes the async code leak threads and melt CPUs. We fixed it though!

4) Some people have used the newly added proxy support to inspect the encrypted blob. We promise that it was an honest mistake collecting every single point of information we possibly could about your system including mouse movements and key presses. Don’t worry, we fixed it! We now “anonymise” the information. Don’t worry about why that’s in quotes.

5) Those socialist Europeans sued us when we said we deleted their data but it was still there when they reactivated their accounts. Oopsie! Our bad. We promise to “wipe” your data including telemetry when you request this form. Fill it out in triplicate and fax it to this Cayman Islands number please.

6) We can no longer sell our software in some jurisdictions. Don’t ask why or what that implies about how we treat our customers in other jurisdictions with weaker legal protections.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by badrabbit on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:31PM (#31047240)
I was not raging. Doesn't matter what the reasons are (hard to prove either way), foe the unassuming user there are serious and even fatal implications if removing specific files or clearing history or logs does not have the expected effect. I am aware (I hope everyone else is) that mobile operating systems are magnitudes of order worse.

Your list of complaints is whataboutism and is not directly related to OS privacy expectations and reality.

Linux is better at this because it gives you more control over what is logged and the code is open source.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by JoeMamaAME on Friday April 15, 2022 @10:11PM (#31048563)
I do agree removing Windows Update does pose some security risk, however I don't think said risk is nearly as bad as some make it out to be, and I personally think the benefits of Windows Ameliorated greatly outweigh any security downsides.

Spyware is not the same as local system logs. Spyware in this case is software that sends unnecessary or intrusive information to Microsoft. The goal of Windows Ameliorated is to remove spyware, not prove your innocence in court.

You used Windows Defender as an example of a security benefit. There are alternatives to Windows Defender, and IMO If you're a tech literate power user, an AV isn't useful in most cases. If you have the time, consider reading this: https://wiki.ameliorated.info/doku.php?id=antivirus Personally I believe antivirus software in general does more harm than good, as they are generally quite resource hungry and privacy intrusive.

Also, AME does greatly help to mitigate the attack surface of Windows:

Windows Ameliorated ships with a non-administrator user account by default, which mitigates ~70% of Windows vulnerabilities. (Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20210618023509/https://www.beyon...). Of course you can still do admin actions, it just requires the admin password.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by crtasm on Saturday April 16, 2022 @09:40AM (#31052236)
Your source link has been truncated.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by JoeMamaAME on Saturday April 16, 2022 @05:09PM (#31056122)
Thanks for letting me know. Here's a shorter link that hopefully works: https://www.beyondtrust.com/assets/documents/BeyondTrust-Mic...
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by logifail on Saturday April 16, 2022 @01:39PM (#31054293)
> Are they providing their own filtered update channel??

You can even update Windows offline if you want to.[0]

It's quite refreshing to be able to prep a USB stick containing all the updates for a clean install of a certain build of Windows and be able to deploy them without needing to connect to the internet.

[0] https://download.wsusoffline.net/

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by getcrunk on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:50PM (#31044171)
Can you give some more examples of the file browsing tracking ? I have timeline off
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by assttoasstmgr on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:55PM (#31045002)
Object access auditing has been around in NT since the mid-1990s, if not from the beginning. It's not some secret spyware, it is literally a feature that is widely used and is a requirement for high-security environments (e.g. government systems) when you need to be able to log or prove if someone did or did not access some sensitive information. E.g. insider threat scenario.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/threat-pro...

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by jiggawatts on Friday April 15, 2022 @06:52PM (#31046921)
It’s off by default! (Only the domain controllers enable a subset of it.)

You can make it log everything, but the performance hit is noticeable.

Next thing you’re going to start complaining about dtrace spying on you.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by badrabbit on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:30PM (#31046091)
Others also seem to think I am pointing out some secret feature. None of this is a secret, just not obvious to people who didn't think to look for it. Defaults matter.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by OminousWeapons on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:41PM (#31045568)
You have to register to see it, but this is a SANS poster which summarizes common Windows forensic artifacts and what data can be obtained from them:

https://www.sans.org/posters/windows-forensic-analysis/

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by badrabbit on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:58PM (#31044260)
Checkout amcache and shimcache, recent files, bam/dam. https://andreafortuna.org/2017/10/16/amcache-and-shimcache-i...
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by xcmac on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:54PM (#31044221)
Your comment is Interesting to me

Im a Dev. But outside of reversing games for hacks and cheats I havent done anything with Windows specifically.

Any links, books, articles, etc.. you can provide to learn more about this?

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by myk9001 on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:04PM (#31047022)
>> If you looked at a specific folder in explorer, that can be proven in court, executed a specific program?...

You'll find most if not all of these in `.bash_history`, wouldn't you?

Probably, it's possible to setup an install of Linux in such a way, that the user won't leave any traces in the system, but this is definitely not the default behavior. And the system setup in this way is likely a pain to use. But if you have a specific need, by all means, go for it. After all, with Linux you're in control.

But saying Windows is spyware because it logs your activity locally is stretching it.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by badrabbit on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:25PM (#31047198)
The OP called it spyware, not I. I pointed those out as examples of what artifacts windows logs. Bash_history much like your browing history you can clear it and be done with it. But due to the seemingly endless subsystems (new ones get discovered all the time, see my other replies) if you clear security.evtx and your browsing history there are still many reliable (as in court tested) artifacts that can prove you browsed specific sites and ran specific programs.

I don't know how much of this MS collects and anyone who says they do, I would challenge them for evidence because there are many plausibly deniable and benign reasons to extract this information from the host.

I would say at best windows is spyware-friendly.

If I workes for the CCP and was instructed to get a list of people that used Signal so they can be sent for re-education, I would not even look to see if Signal.exe is installed in windows, I would just check prefetch and srum.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by dazhengca on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:58PM (#31044256)
How would looking at a specific folder in explorer be proven in court?
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by Bancakes on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:13PM (#31045229)
"Just don't use windows" is not a solution. Ameliorated works, whether you believe in security whataboutism or not.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by badrabbit on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:34PM (#31046146)
It's not whataboutism. Windows has a ton features spanning decades and privacy was never a priority given their paying customers' priority. Linux on the other hand was made by individuals and allows a lot more control and input from users. If privacy is your priority then Linux wind the race. If managable corporate workstation is your priority then windows wins the race.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by Bancakes on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:56PM (#31047463)
And these scripts allow me to mold Windows into something more usable, no need to jump ship.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by IYasha on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:27PM (#31044659)
History clearly shows us about tenth of all updates from Microsoft are bogus, if not malicious. I only install those I downloaded and checked manually.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by badrabbit on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:34PM (#31046156)
Maybe automatic update, but entirely?
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by forgotmypw17 on Friday April 15, 2022 @03:59PM (#31045057)
I don't agree that not keeping up with Windows Update is always a security risk, if one is behind NAT and only browses trusted websites (which rules out webmail, BTW.)

I do agree that trying to make a consensual OS out of Windows is an uphill battle. If you're stuck using it, however, for whatever reason, a patchkit like this is better than nothing.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by jve on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:49PM (#31045656)
Good luck if there is any single malicious device on your network.

Good luck if explorer previewed wrong file.

Good luck if trusted website has been hacked and serves malicious content.

Good luck if you do npm install.

Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by forgotmypw17 on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:17PM (#31045960)
I would not do any of those things.
Re:Windows 10 minus the spyware plus added stability and sec... by badrabbit on Friday April 15, 2022 @05:35PM (#31046165)
You can disable auto update and manually check/approve. Standard enterprise practice too.