This is not a problem of therapy, but a question of meaning.

We need meaning in live. And for a long time religion gave that. But we threw that out. We now try to get "profesional therapy help". But it hardly has any scientific backing, and no one but religion has been able (even though it fails often) been offer te give any deeper answer to the question to "whats the meaning of it all".

The best solutions people like Robbins or J. Peterson offer are: just keep running so you don't think about it.

I used to think this, but I no longer do. I'm also mid 40s. People say that religion gives them meaning, but I think what it really gives them is community. Especially with the pandemic, all of the "automatic" ways that we used to run into friends and acquaintances have dried up. It takes much more active effort now.

While I'm surely projecting on to OP, I think it is very common for very career or goal-focused folks to have good but perhaps not overwhelming success, then hit their mid-40s and think "Umm, what do I do now?" This can be especially common for folks that perhaps sacrificed some of their personal relationships in pursuit of their goals.

I was very lucky in that I had a fantastic therapist who really helped me understand the roots of my depression. Even then, though, after a while insight can only go so far. It's very clear to me that I've neglected nurturing my friendships and relationships, and I think there are likely others out there in a similar predicament, especially on a place like HN. I've actually started to search for a life coach that can really assist with the tactical side of nurturing friendships. That was a big missing piece from my therapy, which was otherwise great.

On one hand it's kind of embarrassing to feel like I need to pay someone to say "Yes, it's been a while, you should call Jane", and "Did you mail your Christmas cards?", and "Did you send a thank you note to Bob?", and "Why don't you invite the Jones over for dinner?", but I've come to see it like a personal trainer. Most people know the basics of working out, but they need to pay someone to actually get them to exercise. On the friendship topic, for some folks this sort of "social knowledge" comes naturally - I've come to easily accept it's not natural for me and I need some assistance.

As far as I've seen from studies of happiness, basically it all comes down to "love", it all its different forms. Modern society makes it much more difficult to build a true sense of community and friendships. I think we all just need to spend the effort to find it without some of the "default" structures that used to exist in the past.

You might enjoy the book Tribe by Sebastian Junger. I think it underscores why people sometimes pine for the days that, on the surface, seem the roughest. Living in a poor community, or being in the military, or being in a conflict zone: they hyper-focus one's mind on the importance of community.

>We need meaning in live. And for a long time religion gave that. But we threw that out.

This is pretty much what Nietzsche was getting at in his often misunderstood quote about 'God is dead', which is actually part of a larger 'Parable of the Madman' - see here if you've never read it, it's pretty insightful IMO: http://www.historyguide.org/europe/madman.html

My understanding is that Nietzsche meant ‘truth’ was dead. Atheism and downfall of religion was not controversial at his time - he meant something else and was misunderstood because his message has become obvious only recently.

https://youtu.be/CkkgjxFcA5Y

So then a religious therapist. I think the takeaway is to seek professional help.

+1 for religion.

Do you have any religious affinity, @0414throwaway? What's your story there?

Jordan Peterson doesn’t say anything of the sort. “Work on something truly meaningful and hard.” Is a direct quote.

This begs the question, what is "truly meaningful"?

Does JP have a solid answer? Not that I've seen, though the last thing I saw was a year ago now, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rAqVmZwqZM. Other JP has a pretty good answer IMO. ;)

It is subjective to the creator.

What is meaningful ...to you?

The problem with religion is that the vices of hypocrisy and selfishness are rampant in the people who claim to understand it. The problem with the people without religion is that they don't understand anything and are usually just trying to grift people. Both are bad for humanity, the former actually worse because they pervert the meaning of this beautiful universe and what this life could be, if only people would go within and find the help to get beyond their selfishness.

The meaning of life is to simply be happy, but we cannot be happy when others are so unhappy, therefore we must live our lives for others' happiness. Every act of compassionate service to those around us causes an upwelling of happiness within our hearts. Only by living in a service-oriented society where we look after each other compassionately can we hope to find peace and happiness.

This world teaches us that selfish greed with a callous, willful ignorance of the suffering of others, is the goal of life, but that will always -- I mean always -- lead to a miserable, empty life, especially in this world full of woe.

The journey of religion is to go within one's self and seek God's Will for our lives, to ask in humility to become an agent of others' happiness. Then you will be guided to the path that will take you there. Ask every day and every night and be thankful for what you have such that you become a kind, generous person.

And remember that that selfish, ignorant Peterson guy perverted the teachings of religion for his own selfish enrichment and power, and that he has no peace (not without benzos that is). You don't want that fate. We must cultivate our compassion and sense of worldwide community. It is not only essential for our species' survival (via global warming and the brutal fascists all over the Earth), but for our own personal happiness and peace.

"The Way goes in." --Rumi

> The problem with the people without religion is that they don't understand anything and are usually just trying to grift people.

It is definitely possible to be a wise, insightful, compassionate and moral human being without religion.

This comment is extremely well written and on point.

In fact, I feel like I'm having the opposite of the "HN is turning into Reddit" illusion, where I feel that over the last year or two the quality of discourse on HN has improved (!): more and more, well-reasoned life advice floats to the top of comment threads. The thread about marriage and divorce had similarly good insights yesterday.

Either that, or I've just matured and I can appreciate it all more :)

I think an important part about therapy is the fact that you really do have to be willing to jump around a bit before you find a therapist who you are comfortable with.

All the therapists I've come across have been excellent at what they do. Yet, therapy is a 2 way process, and if anything, demands more of the patient than it does of the therapist. So if things are not working out definitely try someone else.

Absolutely. And even among good therapists, good fit is critical. Just because someone comes highly recommended by others doesn't mean they'll be right for you.

Add to the "choose your therapist" idea, the idea that maybe talky therapy alone might not work. Practical activities as a means of therapy recently helped me with my mental illness; specifically, doing outdoor crafts alongside other mental health sufferers, with day-long sessions led by professionals. I learned to whittle and to prune trees, and met new people, and conformed my life to a weekly routine. I felt a great sense of community, and satisfaction from the immediacy of working with wood. The therapy lasted eight weeks, with promise to do more in the future. It was very informal, with a little structured discussion at the start and end of each day, but no pressure to talk in depth about problems. The course has helped me more than talking with a doctor or trying CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy). It was a proper, medically referred course of therapy. I was told it's quite new. I'm in my late 30s, in case you're wondering. I live in the UK. I had been suffering depressive symptoms on top of my existing schizophrenia, feeling very lonely and like life had ended for me. The course reversed that. I recommend trying something practical and creative, with an immediately perceptible result (like whittling), and joining that community; if you haven't already tried. If you can access this through your doctor, then great.

He could also try Internal Family Systems (IFS). It's way better than cognitive behavioral therapy, IMHO, because it's about understanding the parts of the psyche. This includes the helpful, not so helpful, and parts that make us do negative behaviors and coming to terms with them instead of suppressing them.

I feel like my IFS trained therapist is actually a professional doing skilled work helping me explore and understand my personality instead of just being a rent-a-friend like my previous therapists.

I'm starting to have success with IFS. It's a bit weird at first. But I like how it actually listens to and tries to understand the various parts that make up your psyche, rather than just convincing them that they're wrong, like in CBT. I find CBT exercises helpful, but at some point we need more than just pointing out cognitive distortions.

Agreed wholeheartedly. I was recently listening to the podcast You Are Not So Smart with an interview from an author named Britt Frank [0]. She discusses exactly the problem with low value therapists and how they can actually be really harmful as part of a broader conversation about feeling “stuck”. I really recommend the episode. After listening, I ordered the book, but haven’t yet read it, so I cannot recommend the book just yet.

[0]: https://youarenotsosmart.com/2022/04/05/yanss-229-britt-fran...

Amen, important to try out different therapists and see whose style is the best for you.

With that said, I think it also helps to diversify your portfolio of meaning. Sounds like you identify "summit" and "zenith" as the latest happenings in your career, but depending on the season of your life, there will always be different ups and downs.

Found this article useful: https://every.to/superorganizers/against-ikigai

also has OP explored pharmaceuticals? I did a year of prozac, am off now, and it completely reset me. The hole I was in and was incapable of climbing out of by myself is now in the rear view mirror.

edit - I missed it in OP - but perhaps the same feedback, try something else? good luck OP.

My 2c: not all therapies are the same...

I recommend you start with a professional that works with `Cognitive Therapy` (from what I've heard it's one of the more recent therapies and its practices are based on evidences -- that's not the case for all therapies out there).

The problem with therapists is that they never say what they are doing, what approach they are taking or what techniques they are applying. This makes them less trustworthy, imho.

I wonder if any of that matters? Optimizing for the things you mentioned feels a bit like overkill. As a non-therapist, I don’t know whether one way of executing therapy is better than another.

I really think it’s simpler than that: find the closest therapist, do an eval session, and see if it fits. If not, try again with next closest. Personal referrals are good too.

You can likely just ask them, but either way I saw their methods plainly advertised when I went looking for an online therapist in early 2021.

Ask them, it's common now for them to advertise their approach (CBT, DBT, psychoanalysis, ect)

psychologytoday's actually a really great place to find these details for local therapists. specialties (trauma, relationships, kids, etc) and likewise training techniques (IFS, CBT, so on). It may have been harder pre-covid but I think covid's shaken up that industry quite a bit.

Absolutely agree, had this one therapist for my son who has ADHD, she would listen to all our concerns and not offer a single suggestion. She would just have this blank stare.

This is so true. It's not easy but the quality of the therapist makes all the difference

On average, people go through 4 therapists before they find one that works for them.