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Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by _ph_ on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @10:57AM (#30932711)
If only those LNG exporters could offer enough LNG quickly to replace the current need of Russian gas in Germany.
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by klausjensen on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @11:06AM (#30932849)
Switching to LNG requires special infrastructure (harbours attached to the gas-network) - and there is not nearly enough of that in Germany right now, and it takes a long time to build.

So even if Russian gas COULD be replaced by LNG tomorrow, in terms of pure volume, it would still not possible to Germany to consume it.

Germany really screwed the pooch on their energy policy for the past 15 years...

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by krisoft on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @11:49AM (#30933542)
Exactly as you say.

> there is not nearly enough of that in Germany right now

To elaborate on that: Germany has no LNG terminals. Zero. They signed the first contracts to build one this year March [1]. If I were a German citizen I would feel very cross with my own government. It's a good idea to have such an infra just in case. Just to hedge the bets.

There is a very real reason why the Floating Storage Regasification Unit serving as the LNG import terminal for Latvia is called "FSRU Independence". [2] These facilities literally provide independence.

1: https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/germany-speeds-pl... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FSRU_Independence

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by lnsru on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @03:29PM (#30936476)
Lithuania has Independence, not Latvia. Kremlin troll factory was screaming about money waste for years. Today it looks like a smart investment without a doubt.
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by freeflight on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @03:49PM (#30936689)
Even with the terminal, Lithuania still has a 40% Russian gas dependence [0], barely 10% lower than Germany, while Latvia is over 90% dependent on Russian gas.

The matter of fact is that only very few countries in Europe can "afford" to get by without Russian gas or other resources. After all it is the home to the continents largest concentration of natural resources.

There is only so much global production capacity, so much bandwith in terms of logistics, that can compensate for that. It's not like we can suddenly tap a new continent full of resources to replace Russia, reality ain't working like that.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1201743/russian-gas-depe...

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by nagisa on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @04:23PM (#30937041)
All three Baltic countries stopped all imports of Russian gas for its own use this week, a move largely enabled by the FSRU Independence. The only remaining movement of gas across the pipeline through Lithuania from Russia is in transit to the Kaliningrad oblast.

FSRU Independence has sufficient capacity to deliver enough gas to serve 70~100% of the yearly needs of the three Baltic countries, depending on how you count. Of course it remains a question of who supplies the LNG, but it gives the countries a backup, an ability to pick the suppliers and an ability to make politically important decisions, even if it means paying a little more.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by krisoft on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @05:29PM (#30937631)
Oh you are right. Sorry about that. Even my source correctly says Lithuania. Need to learn to read.
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by imtringued on Thursday April 07, 2022 @04:20AM (#30942006)
Resilience is inherently wasteful.
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by spaniard89277 on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @11:52AM (#30933595)
Spain has. But youll need pipes.
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by Gravityloss on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @01:16PM (#30934918)
There exists LNG terminals in Holland, Belgium and Poland: Rotterdam, Zeebrugge, Swinoujscie etc.

They are connected to German pipelines.

This map is excellent: https://www.gie.eu/publications/maps/gie-lng-map/

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by spaniard89277 on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @02:28PM (#30935716)
I know, but I've been told that Spain has the most underused installed capacity.
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by Gravityloss on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @05:59PM (#30937979)
Does Spain export a lot of electricity? It could produce a lot of solar power. Even some in the winter, a lot in the summer when it's needed for air conditioning. One can think of it this way, if a solar panel is manufactured in or imported to EU, maybe it should be installed in the more sunny regions for maximum benefit.

Spain is also a wind power giant.

As comparison, Germany is not a great location for either wind or solar power.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by spaniard89277 on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @06:21PM (#30938199)
I heard that France refused several projects to connect the iberian system to central europe properly, not only electricity but also gas.

It isn't that spanish companies can get much help from the government's diplomacy (long topic), so someone else interested in that connection would have to partner with such companies, or a foreign diplomatic body go and do the legwork for the spanish companies, which wouldn't be the first time.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by pjmlp on Thursday April 07, 2022 @02:58AM (#30941477)
Germany has lots of good locations for wind, the problem is that anyone can block them, because "they don't like how they look, are noisy, too close to their home,..." and plety of other reasons.

Thus Germany could be like we have it back home in the Iberian Penisula, but no, many people are keeping the courts busy instead.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by manholio on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @01:23PM (#30935008)
A LNG import pier is essentially a pipe where ships dock, connected to storage tanks and from which, in response to demand, liquid gas is reheated by simply letting it exchange heat with air or the sea water.

It's a straightforward piece of technology that can be built quickly by any country, unlike, say, a liquefaction plant or a LNG tanker.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by krisoft on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @04:50PM (#30937295)
Fundamentally on the physics level you are right. LNG regasification is not hard tech. It doesn't require unobtanium, probably any technologically advanced country can develop the necessary know how if they need it. Heck, at small scale you just pour the LNG out in a puddle and it will turn back to gas. :)

But building any kind of infrastructure takes time. There are some factors which make it more complicated engineering wise: cryogenic fluids, handling large quantities of flamable and explosive liquids and gasses, being built on the waterfront etc etc. None of these are insurmountable mind you! They just complicate it a bit.

One way we can look at is by comparing how long such plants took to get constructed elsewhere. I looked up a few European examples. From the first announcement to the first ship docking:

  UK/South Hook ~6 years
  UK/Dragon ~4 years
  UK/Grain ~6.2 years
  Belgium/Zeebrugge ~10 years
  Netherlands/Gate ~4 years
  Poland/Świnoujście ~9 years
(I have collected my sources on a spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1md_XfmrpIYhWj72Mu3BJ... )

Probably I made some mistakes in the above, and there are some inconsistencies (do we count until the first commercial ship, or the first ship trialing the facilities?) Also I assume that all of these things can be done a bit faster in case of a dire emergency. But it seems even in that best case it might take multiple winters until a regassification plant is up and running. Which is a bit cold and scary.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by rich_sasha on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @03:03PM (#30936176)
The gas port in Poland [1] took 4 years from start of construction to first delivery. From project start it was 9 years.

I’m not putting Poland as some kind of benchmark for speedy construction, but I think 1-2 years is a minimum even in a hurry.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by weinzierl on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @01:14PM (#30934891)
It is not only the missing LNG terminals. In the last 15 years gas heating has been been pushed to a degree that roughly half of all buildings are heated that way.

I'm willing to believe that we can build an LNG terminal in a year or two, but replacing the heating systems of our buildings will take decades.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by nemetroid on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @02:35PM (#30935817)
Isn’t the point of an LNG terminal to supply a gas heating system with gas?
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by huijzer on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @01:34PM (#30935161)
> Germany really screwed the pooch on their energy policy for the past 15 years...

If they would have pushed "this overrides all public interests" clause last year, they could have triggered a huge backslash especially among the German climate change deniers and car fans. This in turn could have hindered them from introducing the clause today. So, maybe they did a great job on the energy policy. Who knows

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by hef19898 on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @12:21PM (#30934036)
>> Germany really screwed the pooch on their energy policy for the past 15 years...

Why? Russia, and the USSR through the entirity of the Cold War, delivered reliably all the gas ordered. If you have a stable relationship with suppliers stretching decades and through all kinds of conflicts you have zero incentive to change. The infrastructure is there. And being in business with your "enemy" keeps channels open and results in intet dependencies.

Putin, in a bout of insanity, through all that out of the window. Once it was clear that's gonna happen, and no that was NOT clear a year ago, it was too late to switch (infrastructure).

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by lorenzfx on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @12:34PM (#30934262)
This.

As I commented recently on another thread:

This was done on purpose. There was the hope, that strong economic ties would make war between Germany and Russia impossible. While it now looks really stupid, it worked really well between Germany and France after World War II (first with European Coal and Steel Community and then later with the European Union).

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by fauigerzigerk on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @12:39PM (#30934374)
There's also climate change though. Building a new gas pipeline while exiting nuclear at the same time seems an odd way to achieve zero carbon.
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by ZeroGravitas on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @02:28PM (#30935722)
Why? Cheap renewables and gas is a perfectly good route to zero carbon being used around the world.

I could think of ways to further minimize gas but there's politics involved too.

It also is a big carrot for Putin (or somebody who takes his place) to rejoin the peaceful world.

Build a golden bridge for your enemies to retreat over -- Sun Tzu

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by infamia on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @12:34PM (#30934258)
It's not like this is out of the blue. NATO has been training the Ukrainians for eight years because of the risks. The Europeans should have been hedging their bets against Russian gas as well.
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by yonaguska on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @12:44PM (#30934453)
> NATO has been training the Ukrainians for eight years because of the risks.

Feels a bit like a chicken or egg question. I'm still undecided though, as Russia was funding the green anti nuclear movements in Germany way back when Fukushima happened.

Fwiw, I don't think that renewables plus batteries are a safe hedge anyways. We're simply offshoring the environmental externalities to places far away in terms of energy storage, and China holds all the cards in this instance.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by hef19898 on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @12:58PM (#30934670)
The Green party was funded as, partially, an anti nuclear party. Pushing that after Fukushima was just natural. Russia did support the AfD so, as they did with other far right movements across Europe.

That said, 8 years is a very short time to switch from existing gas pipelines to LNG terminals.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by timka on Thursday April 07, 2022 @03:21PM (#30949166)
What exactly do you mean by Russia funding the green anti-nuclear movements? Exactly who did this?

All that green agenda, Kyoto and Paris stuff, affects Russia very badly by basically cancelling its fossil fuel export earnings. Just look at those who lobby the green agenda in Russia like Chubais.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by endymi0n on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @02:26PM (#30935703)
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by hef19898 on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @02:43PM (#30935900)
History. Germany dealt woth every Sowjet leader since Stalin. Arguably that helped preserve peace in Europe. Everybody continues to deal with China, not to mention raw earths and dimonds from various African dictators. And the Wests standards were never that high anyway.
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by freeflight on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @03:58PM (#30936801)
> Putin, in a bout of insanity, through all that out of the window.

How exactly? You just explained it yourself very well; These trade relations even held trough the worst of the Cold War.

Just like Germany kept its trade relations with the US going while that invaded and bombed half the Middle East.

The only side that switched behavior here, throwing all established rules out of the window, is Germany and the US, by making Ukraine this "ultimate lynchpin" everybody shall pick a side over, and those who don't pick the "right" one shall be considered with the enemy.

These are very much 1:1 the same overtones the US bullied the international community with, thus tolerating American imperialist ambitions, on the other side of the planet, even those have resulted in some of the worst global damage since WWII.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by vimy on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @02:18PM (#30935611)
Ten years ago only 30 % of European gas came from Russia. In the 90s it was even less. It was a deliberate German strategy to increase their dependence on Russia.

> Once it was clear that's gonna happen, and no that was NOT clear a year ago,

It was clear. He threatened Europe with shutting down gas supplies in the past, more than once. He actually did it with Ukraine in 2014. In response Germany (& Europe) became more dependent on Russia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYaa5Zp7qBI This was 2018. Germany mocked him instead of listening.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by trhway on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @05:03PM (#30937394)
>So even if Russian gas COULD be replaced by LNG tomorrow, in terms of pure volume, it would still not possible to Germany to consume it

Why? Given that Germany has unused North Stream 2 connection to Germany infra they should just build an LNG terminal right where NS2 beaches. An LNG receiving terminal is pretty easy and fast to build.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by croes on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @11:12AM (#30932937)
Others sources have either similar totalitarian governments or human rights violations like russia or damage the environment like transporting the LNG with ships to germany.

Germany could have diversified it's suppliers if the Iran deals weren't killed by Trump, but even then not a good solution.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by klausjensen on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @11:26AM (#30933154)
Hindsight is 20-20, I know, but Russia was the worst choice there was as supplier.

It was not nearly as obvious 15 years ago, as it is today, but all the signs were there. We (I include myself here) were just not listening closely enough to the countries that knew Russia the best: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine.

The decision is also amplified by the meaningless end to the German nuclear program.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by Mlller on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @02:34PM (#30935807)
Contrary to the narrative common now, many European states and particularly a majority of Eastern European states seem to have been more dependent on Russian gas than Germany:

  - Hungary: 110.4 percent 
  - Latvia: 100.1 percent 
  - Finland: 92.4 percent 
  - Estonia: 86.5 percent 
  - Czechia: 86.0 percent 
  - Slovenia: 81.0 percent 
  - Slovakia: 75.2 percent 
  - Bulgaria: 72.8 percent 
  - Germany: 58.9 percent
“Some of the countries have a figure above 100 because they import more than required for domestic consumption and export other energy products.” per https://thehill.com/policy/equilibrium-sustainability/326055...
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by pell on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @03:20PM (#30936388)
While that is true, Germany is the economical powerhouse of the EU (and the fourth largest economy in the world). I think, these countries' GDPs combined are probably still smaller than Germany's. This gives Germany a special position here which is mainly why they're the center of attention here.
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by riku_iki on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @06:03PM (#30938028)
Those all are small countries, with combined population less than Germany.
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by pell on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @03:16PM (#30936330)
>It was not nearly as obvious 15 years ago, as it is today, but all the signs were there. We (I include myself here) were just not listening closely enough to the countries that knew Russia the best: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine.

A big part of Germany's geopolitical strategy was (and partly still is) to act as a communication channel between West and East. Similarly to the EU which brought long-lasting peace in Europe through economical ties, the idea was to establish economical relationships with Russia to advance the relationship for a beneficial win-win situation both sides could live with. This, of course, was shortsighted in many ways.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by bobthepanda on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @11:34AM (#30933308)
German dependency on Russian gas is a lot older than that. Ostpolitik dates back to the ‘60s.
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by tmerse on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @12:10PM (#30933875)
Jein (Yes and no). Helmut Schmidt even advocated for diversification in 1988 (no importer should account for more than 30% - of course more with oil in mind but the principle stands).

https://www.zeit.de/1988/08/sieben-prinzipien-vernuenftiger-...

Contrary to this, Russian gas imports to Germany used to account for 40% of total consumption in 2012 vs 52% as of today.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by gsserge on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @02:07PM (#30935472)
> It was not nearly as obvious 15 years ago, as it is today, but all the signs were there. We (I include myself here) were just not listening closely enough to the countries that knew Russia the best: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine.

After living in Western Europe for almost a decade it's still shocking to me how much people here do not understand Russia.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by creato on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @02:18PM (#30935610)
In my experience, right here on HN the dominant narrative was that opposing Russian gas infrastructure was just American protectionism for frackers.

Similarly, opposing Chinese built telecom infrastructure is just seen as an attempt at American protectionism. Hopefully that continues to be a viable position, unlike depending on Russian gas.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by croes on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @12:09PM (#30933860)
Who would have been a better choice?
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by hef19898 on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @12:23PM (#30934083)
In the pre-Ukraine war world there were none. Gas was comparatively cheap, pipelines and ibfrastructure was there. So Russia was a natural choice. Now that changed and the world will adapt.
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by gsserge on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @01:59PM (#30935396)
At the very least Germany could have said no to Nord Stream 1 & 2.
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by starkd on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @12:10PM (#30933879)
>> Germany could have diversified it's suppliers if the Iran deals weren't killed by Trump, but even then not a good solution.

How does diversifying away from one totalitarian government only to depend on another totalitarian government solve anything?

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by mrep on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @12:37PM (#30934321)
Well for one thing, that other totalitarian government doesn't have nukes to threaten you if you intervene with them.
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by freemint on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @09:36PM (#30939668)
yet.
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by croes on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @01:22PM (#30934999)
Less power for each of such governments.
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by freeflight on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @03:40PM (#30936593)
They can't, and even if they could; In terms of climate change it's absolutely counterproductive to ship LNG across the Atlantic.

The amount of extra energy that needs, the extra emission it creates, its a complete enviornmental disaster.

One that's mostly ignored, as it gets into the way of certain foreign policy narratives, where neither "climate change" nor the "enviornment" are even recognized concepts of any kind of priority.

Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by photochemsyn on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @11:07AM (#30932869)
Current LNG facilities are already saturated as I understand it. It's an energetically expensive process: gas from production in the USA has to be piped to an export terminal, and then has to be liquified (large energy investment), shipped across the ocean, then gasified (another large energy investment) and fed into the European pipeline system. Suddenly expanding all that would require, well, a decade of investment and planning.
Re:Germany boosts renewables with “biggest energy policy ref... by croes on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @11:13AM (#30932954)
Not to mention the environmental damage because of the transport by ship. Climate change seems to be forgotten.