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Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by jacquesm on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @06:19AM (#30840776)
When reading this keep in mind that Dudayev was killed when a call from his satellite phone was intercepted and allowed pinpointing of his location.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzhokhar_Dudayev#Assassination

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by trhway on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @07:03AM (#30841027)
One of the Russian generals was recently killed in Ukraine when he was located by Ukraine forces because he was supposedly using regular cell phone as Russian military communication equipment was broken.

In general Ukraine seems to be doing a lot of cell tracking/intercepts for intelligence purposes there as Russian military personnel (whose cells were taken away before the invasion) robs the civilians of the phones and are using the phones for calls home as well as among themselves.

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by dboreham on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @08:15AM (#30841521)
It's reasonable to assume that usg has very advanced capabilities in this field, possibly space-based. Also reasonable to wonder if those capabilities have been used recently.
Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by trhway on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @08:25AM (#30841585)
Ukrainian TV has mentioned in the open that US helps Ukraine in particular by sharing various intelligence it collects over Ukraine.
Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by twaw on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @08:53AM (#30841860)
USA shares their intelligence with significant delay. Moreover, language barrier (Russian to English, English to Ukrainian) doesn't help. An Ukrainian woman can report more and faster directly to Ukrainian army.
Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @09:15AM (#30842135)
> USA shares their intelligence with significant delay

Very few people can credibly speak to what the U.S. is sharing with whom on what timeframe. Perhaps nobody.

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by twaw on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @09:48AM (#30842493)
This information can be deducted. It's an easy job for a former intelligence officer. For example, in my battalion no one knows English language except me, so any intelligence in English language must be translated and reviewed first by a native Ukrainian. Together with time shift and night time, this creates 12-18 hour lag.

Moreover, Ukrainians know Russian tactics, language, technical capabilities, or even know them in person. We also have relatives in RF, which can text us when rockets are launched, for example.

USA intelligence is not important at this stage of war, when everything changes every few hours.

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @09:52AM (#30842516)
> in my battalion no one knows English language except me, so any intelligence in English language must be translated and reviewed first by a native Ukrainian. Together with time shift and night time, this creates 12-18 hour lag

First off, thank you for your service.

To your point, yes, one can anticipate that mean lag for that intel stream to your battalion. But that doesn't describe all intelligence streams. Translating every troop-movement report into Ukranian so it can be read faster would be a waste. But messaging e.g. the coordinates and description of the specific tank a general happens to be in to a nearby battalion with a few Javelins handy?

More broadly: while there may be intentional and unintentional delays in various intelligence streams, nobody can credibly make a blanket statement about what is being shared with whom. The circumstances in which U.S. intelligence shines are closely-guarded state secrets.

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by stef25 on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @09:47AM (#30842476)
It's probably safe to say a multitude of Western countries are passing all kinds of information to Ukraine through various back channels. As long as it's all plausibly deniable.

With operations in the Middle East now basically "over" and a nuclear threat looming, I'd imagine it's all hands on deck for most Western intelligence agencies wrt to Russia. And rightly so.

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by simonh on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @10:05AM (#30842683)
They're sharing intelligence directly with the Ukrainian military, and are very open about doing it, just as they are about sending high tech missiles to them. Thy won't say what intelligence they're giving them obviously.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/04/politics/us-ukraine-intel...

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by jacquesm on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @09:16AM (#30842143)
Nobody posting it on HN anyway, and those that do know realize how vitally important secrecy is.
Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by EthanHeilman on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @10:11AM (#30842750)
You US definitely has space based ELINT satellites and has been using them for a very long time. TRUMPET the ELINT satellite used in the 1990s has been declassified. I have no access to classified information but the US has been fighting a Global War of Terror (2003-2022+), in such a fight one would imagine rapidly geolocating satellite phones and mobile phone would be high on the wish list of US capabilities.

[0]: Trumpet (satellite) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trumpet_(satellite)

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by dmix on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @10:23AM (#30842911)
They knew the location of where he made calls previously as well, enough to booby trap it with an explosive:

> The Russians did have the technology to track a satellite phone call but Dudayev never spoke long enough on the phone for a plane to get airborne and find him to launch an attack.

> A Russian unit on the ground, however, did identify the gully as a place which Dudayev visited and planted a booby trap bomb there.

> A combination of events leading up to Dudayev's death worked well in favour of the Russians.

> When Dudayev made his fateful call from the gully, a plane was already airborne.

> Once it was known that Dudayev was in the gully, the booby trap bomb was detonated and moments afterwards a rocket hit its target.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/325347.stm

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by jacquesm on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @10:29AM (#30842985)
You may well be looking at an instance of 'parallel construction', at the time that article was written it was not yet known that the NSA had passed information regarding the sat phone to the Russians. I do believe that the plane was already airborne at the time the call was initiated because the Russians were on one side of that call and made a play for peace talks keeping him on the phone longer than would have happened otherwise.
Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by amelius on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @07:41AM (#30841277)
What satellite network did he use, and did the Russians have access to the encryption keys?
Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @08:49AM (#30841803)
> What satellite network did he use, and did the Russians have access to the encryption keys?

Dudayev "was killed by a signal-guided missile" [1], an anti-radiation missile [2]. That doesn't require compromising the call's encryption any more than taking out a radar installation requires cracking its track algorithm.

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20120816090458/http://www.foreig...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-radiation_missile

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by Someone on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @09:11AM (#30842082)
Wikipedia claims “Russian reconnaissance planes in the area had been monitoring satellite communications for quite some time trying to match Dudayev's voice signature to the existing samples of his speech” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzhokhar_Dudayev#Assassination)

If that’s correct, it required decryption.

However, that Wikipedia page continues “Dudayev's phone signature and coordinates were also reportedly passed to the Russians by the NSA after U.S. President Bill Clinton's meeting with Russian President Boris Yeltsin”, so it may have been specifics of his phone (if so, what? Slight frequency and/or timing deviations that fingerprint a specific device?), not of his voice.

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @09:37AM (#30842359)
> if so, what? Slight frequency and/or timing deviations that fingerprint a specific device?

How many satellite phones were operating in Chechnya at the time? It's not like the handset was beam forming or performing fancy modulations to look like static.

In the right frequency--in publicly known frequencies--the handset would shine like a torch.

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by jacquesm on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @10:04AM (#30842668)
> In the right frequency--in publicly known frequencies--the handset would shine like a torch.

To clarify: if a satellite phone of a particular manufacturer uses a known set of frequencies and is talking to a specific satellite and you know the rough area where you are looking for phones from that manufacturer you can filter out the rest of the electromagnetic radiation and then all you are left with is instances of phones of that type (or other devices using the same set of frequencies).

It's not quite as easy as picking out a torch at night and to get accurate coordinates you will need to do some more measurements and some math but this is all definitely doable, especially if the call lasts for more than a few minutes if the device you use to scan for the phone is mobile (such as on a plane) because with every passing second your baseline is getting longer (and thus your accuracy).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direction_finding

Radio amateurs do this sort of thing for sport, it's called fox hunting ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmitter_hunting ), and with experienced hunters it can be done pretty quickly if the target is stationary.

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by jacquesm on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @09:27AM (#30842246)
That section is not supported by any external references.

I've done some digging and this pretty important information (if true) was added unsourced in this edit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dzhokhar_Dudayev&...

It probably should be removed without any kind of reference to corroborate it, it's been more than 15 years since that edit has been made and there is zero evidence for this.

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by anotherhue on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @09:29AM (#30842269)
> If that’s correct, it required decryption.

Probably but not _necessarily_ - if someone's vocal cadence was somehow visible in the encrypted modulation then that could be an identifier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_analysis

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by bob1029 on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @09:00AM (#30841945)
This is why militaries like to use DSSS communication technologies. It makes detection by these kinds of systems very difficult. The state of the art is offline processing of recorded "noise" on HPC server farms. In a "launch/guide missile" context, this is way too late, even if you find a coherent signal.
Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by rasz on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @05:41PM (#30848752)
This was true probably up to Iraq war. Good example http://www.milspec.ca/radspec/prc-343.html https://www.cryptomuseum.com/radio/selex/prr/index.htm Ordinary DECT home cordless phones could be considered as secure at the time :)

Nowadays we have enough compute power in a laptop with connected SDR to render this moot security by obscurity.

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by bob1029 on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @06:04PM (#30848972)
> Nowadays we have enough compute power in a laptop with connected SDR to render this moot security by obscurity.

Can you provide some sort of example of how a laptop+SDR was used to discriminate something equivalent to a military-grade DSSS signal (i.e. one in which the pseudo noise function and its parameters are classified)?

If you know the PN function, I agree that it is trivial to detect/recover the transmission.

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by rasz on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @07:09PM (#30849511)
USRP came out in 2005. Nowadays wide coherent multi radio SDRs are readily available in portable form factor. Beginner setup (sadly limited to <1.8GHz) started shipping recently https://www.crowdsupply.com/krakenrf/krakensdr

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9RkPt6uVQ4 now add ability to do phase correlation

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by Nitrolo on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @09:18AM (#30842160)
His Wikipedia article claims that the Russians were trying to "match his voice signature", which implies being able to listen to the call itself somehow.
Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by jacquesm on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @08:32AM (#30841658)
Inmarsat and 'not that we know for sure', but that wasn't all that important because it did not matter what the contents of the call were (there was a Russian official on the other side of the call so they already knew everything that was said and could ID him) but where exactly it came from and for that the Russians had built a special purpose tracker that allowed them to pinpoint the location precisely enough that a jet sent quickly could make it to the location of the call and fire a missile. Since the Russians knew exactly when the call started they could presumably pick it out of the background and I highly doubt there were many such phones operating in the area to begin with.

His big mistake was to be on the phone for just a little bit longer than it took for the plane to get there, on that day he spoke on the phone for 3 times as long as normal, 15 minutes as opposed to normally 5 or less.

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by Friday_ on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @08:53AM (#30841855)
Encryption is only for protecting message content.

Nobody said that encryption will save you from enemy knowing who you are, where you are, who you talking to, etc.

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by jacquesm on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @09:08AM (#30842044)
And often that is just as valuable as the actual message content, if not more valuable because it allows for network analysis.
Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @10:20AM (#30842860)
>it allows for network analysis

Like Nazis always ending their encrypted communications with 'Heil Hitler' making reversing the keys easier lol.

Although, for modern encrypted telecoms, I doubt this is as easy.

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by jacquesm on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @10:26AM (#30842947)
That's something else, that's known plaintext analysis using cribs. If you know that a certain text may be present in the messages then you can try a bunch of different keys and stop searching if your decrypt contains that text to inspect for a 'hit'.

Network analysis or traffic analysis is this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_analysis

It allows for instance for the de-anonymization of network nodes based on known nodes and it allows for determining which nodes in the network are more important than others.

Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by baybal2 on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @07:51AM (#30841348)
If you are the only person in the country with a satellite phone, finding you will not require any decryption, but an antiradiation missile.
[dead]
Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by szczepano on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @08:17AM (#30841537)
No he's on dark side of the Moon. James Webb telescope secret mission was to deliver him there and they also created surrogate that imitates his poses on Earth. Russia plans to launch moon lander mission in July this year to kill him.
Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by fnsa on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @08:00AM (#30841412)
source?
Re:The phones of Ukrainian president Zelensky by jacquesm on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @08:49AM (#30841809)
Bullshit.