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Re:The Future of Kubernetes by tkiolp4 on Sunday March 13, 2022 @08:50AM (#30660798)
K8s will be superseded by a simpler yet more powerful tool sooner rather than later. Just like it happened with:

- Corba, MRI -> http apis

- XML, Soap -> json

- Flash -> html5

- Perforce, svn, mercurial -> git

Etc. We can’t think of anything better than k8s right now, but that’s just how it works. The moment that new tech appears, we all will be asking ourselves “how could we possibly use k8s?”

Re:The Future of Kubernetes by xg15 on Sunday March 13, 2022 @09:24AM (#30661010)
> Flash -> html5

HTML5 is definitely not simpler than Flash was. I'd argue, it's far more complex, if you include all the sub-technologies and frameworks required to reach feature parity.

There was also no "natural" progression from Flash to HTML5. Oracle and the browser vendors had to run an involved depreciation campaign to get developers off flash and move them to HTML5. If you had left the web ecosystem on it's own, my guess is, we'd still be writing flash applications today.

> Perforce, svn, mercurial -> git

This progression was definitely natural, but I doubt again that git is less complex than svn or mercurial. However, one big advantage of git is that it is extremely easy to set up: You can just install it and use it locally without bothering any admins or setting up any servers. Once you are already using it, it's also easy to connect your repo to a server.

So, I'd argue, git has better UX and better availability than the alternatives, but it's not necessarily simpler.

Re:The Future of Kubernetes by gravypod on Sunday March 13, 2022 @09:50AM (#30661179)
> required to reach feature parity

I think most people don't need full feature parity. That's why a lot of these techs take off. They need something that is easier to understand.

Similar with kubernetes, there's like 5 permutations of software deployment people actually want to do. Deployments are one of those but there are still a few areas that you have to get hacky with StatefulSets to achieve. Once some PaaS-wrapper for kubernetes takes off we'll see the V2 of that idea as a stand alone cluster management thing. If someone nips some ideas from MaaS [0] we might even see on-prem bare metal take off again once people realize they're getting screwed on perf/bandwidth and many of the benefits of cloud providers are already provided to you by something like Kube.

[0] - https://maas.io/

Re:The Future of Kubernetes by tasuki on Sunday March 13, 2022 @02:20PM (#30664196)
I disagree completely :)

Git is very simple. There are basically just four concepts: blobs, trees, commits, and pointers to commits.

However, git is far from easy! The UX is haphazard and confusing and many people are scared of venturing outside of their couple of memorized commands.

Re:The Future of Kubernetes by jbergens on Sunday March 13, 2022 @12:48PM (#30663051)
This is the first time _ever_ that I've heard git UX described as simpler or easier than something else.

As far as I remember Mercurial was easier to start with but Github came along and won.

Re:The Future of Kubernetes by SahAssar on Monday March 14, 2022 @04:11AM (#30669670)
What does oracle have to do with flash? Are you thinking of Adobe or are you thinking of java applets?
Re:The Future of Kubernetes by xg15 on Monday March 14, 2022 @06:10AM (#30670513)
Ah, I'm sorry. Yes, I meant Adobe, not Oracle.
Re:The Future of Kubernetes by pyuser583 on Sunday March 13, 2022 @11:31AM (#30662090)
There are so many devs around now that have never programmed or used Flash. It’s details are becoming myths.
Re:The Future of Kubernetes by Fiahil on Sunday March 13, 2022 @09:10AM (#30660923)
Kubernetes is the new tech your are looking for. It's not simpler, because it _needs_ to be complex in order to provide portable, heterogeneous, application deployments.

How was it before ? A bunch of unstandardized shell scripts and ansible playbooks that you could not reliably automate, let alone port to a different topology ? How could we possibly use that ?

Re:The Future of Kubernetes by tannhaeuser on Sunday March 13, 2022 @10:34AM (#30661530)
> bunch of unstandardized shell scripts

Eh, nothing unstandardized about POSIX shell scripts, as opposed to a bunch of ever-changing YAML files with questionable semantics.

I think this generation of "cloud natives" have drunk too much of the cool aid served by "cloud providers" and their clever faux grassroots marketing/blogs.

As compared to the Linux and BSD "movement" (no such thing), which was about liberating ourselves from having to run apps on commercial OS's, based on a well-understood OS baseline (POSIX, a term coined by RMS).

Re:The Future of Kubernetes by reacharavindh on Sunday March 13, 2022 @01:55PM (#30663885)
Eh. I like and use Kubernetes as a tool. But, this over simplification at best.

Kubernetes is not a defecto and always better replacement of Ansible and shell scripts. In most small scale deployments, the value brought by Kubernetes is trumped by the costs of complexity. Bunch of scripts you say? Now you have bunch of yaml files laying around. Atleast before, you could find and fix problems manually quickly. Now, first find someone who has been in the weanies if kubernetes and it’s ecosystem to fix your problem.

In large scale infrastructure, kubernetes may bring the standardisation that is needed. Being able to hire people who knows kubernetes would be easier than hiring people who know how you wired your infra with ansible playbooks and scripts.

Portability you say? How easy do you think it is to move your infra(not just the apps, but - users, security rules, storage etc) to another kubernetes provider? EKS to AKS? Do you think AWS IAM and whatever equivalent Azure uses would be straight portable? Your S3 buckets and it’s policies to Azure block storage? Selling K8s with infra portability is a lie.

Applications - yes, but that is achievable by other means as well.

Re:The Future of Kubernetes by Fiahil on Monday March 14, 2022 @03:55AM (#30669578)
Portability is _THE_ killer feature of kubernetes. You may argue that it is not straightforward to move from EKS to AKS, but consider that any replacement solution will suffer from the same shortcomings.

However, moving from 1 cluster in one region to another within another, is very simple. And that did not exists before kubernetes.

Re:The Future of Kubernetes by zozbot234 on Sunday March 13, 2022 @09:15AM (#30660960)
> It's not simpler, because it _needs_ to be complex in order to provide portable, heterogeneous, application deployments.

No, the complexity of Kybernetes is mostly in its auto-tuning and auto-scaling features. That's the stuff that needs to be re-engineered from the ground up in an elegant way. If history is any guide, we'll probably end up with some variant of it in systemd sooner rather than later.

Re:The Future of Kubernetes by p_l on Sunday March 13, 2022 @10:20AM (#30661421)
Autoscaling is honestly a minor thing (I have yet to use Autoscaling other than cluster autoscaling since 2016) and autotuning... what autotuning are you talking about? The binpacking support?

Also, I do wonder what "elegant way" would be, considering that k8s is a very elegant system (once you notice that YAML is just one of the serialization formats to make it easier for raw API access by humans).

Re:The Future of Kubernetes by otabdeveloper4 on Monday March 14, 2022 @02:16AM (#30669060)
No. Kubernetes solves imaginary problems, not real ones.

The reason k8s took off is because it provides the fief that devops engineers so desperately need to be motivated to stay on the job. (And that's mostly a good thing. Look at software testing to see what happens when you don't give developers career incentives.)

Re:The Future of Kubernetes by Fiahil on Monday March 14, 2022 @03:48AM (#30669526)
> Kubernetes solves imaginary problems, not real ones.

Portability between cloud providers is not imaginary. Same for portability of network configuration.

Re:The Future of Kubernetes by radicalbyte on Sunday March 13, 2022 @09:06AM (#30660900)
I find this amusing considering that the JSON community are slowly re-inventing XML with their versions of XSL, XSLT etc.
Re:The Future of Kubernetes by leetrout on Sunday March 13, 2022 @09:13AM (#30660949)
True but i do see a general shift to "types are good" so there is a shift to "schemas are good" by extension IMO.

The big thing is JSON has common basic building blocks (simple types) so you are unlikely to see the same class of interop problems like SOAP and friends had ... "oh look this defines a new type my Python soap / xml lib doesnt natively support" (happened to me a few times, most memorable was akamai soap api using a custom list-of-string type nothing in python would parse out of the box)

Re:The Future of Kubernetes by radicalbyte on Sunday March 13, 2022 @09:46AM (#30661155)
Types are good and XML/SOAP was a good idea. The vendor lock-in shenanigans were the problem.
Re:The Future of Kubernetes by pjmlp on Sunday March 13, 2022 @10:53AM (#30661724)
Just like the WASM folks are now re-inventing application servers.
Re:The Future of Kubernetes by tkiolp4 on Sunday March 13, 2022 @09:10AM (#30660930)
JSON is already 20 years old. I guess things can’t stay the way they are forever (and 20 years in the IT world is a lot).
Re:The Future of Kubernetes by marcyb5st on Sunday March 13, 2022 @09:30AM (#30661036)
I am not sure. There are already superior (IMHO) alternatives and JSON still sticks around unaffected. For instance, at work we use protobuffers everywhere and now I am so used to that that I started using them also on my personal projects since I believe they are so convenient. In fact, I am not sure how many hours I saved from not having to write serialisation/deserialisation code, and how you can get full IDE support for your messages.

However, it seems protobuffers (or alternatives like flatbuffers, cap'n proto) are still niches compared to JSON.

Re:The Future of Kubernetes by leetrout on Sunday March 13, 2022 @09:57AM (#30661242)
Everyone I've worked with save a few that experienced protobufs with extentions immediately finds the benefit once they use them.

However I have yet to convince anyone at an org that isn't already using them that they will change things for the better.

Schema once, code everywhere. It is really nice.

Have you seen Buf? https://buf.build/

Re:The Future of Kubernetes by marcyb5st on Sunday March 13, 2022 @04:06PM (#30665207)
Indeed a chicken and egg problem since investing in the tooling to make protobuf usage smooth requires some prior use.

No, thanks for sharing! I will have a look!

Re:The Future of Kubernetes by vstollen on Sunday March 13, 2022 @10:04AM (#30661305)
I'm not too far into protobuf, etc., but do you only prefer them for your internal services, or do you actually see them as a viable solution for public-facing APIs?
Re:The Future of Kubernetes by marcyb5st on Sunday March 13, 2022 @04:04PM (#30665175)
Great question! My rule of thumb would be for server to server apis use protobufs. Also probably for Android/iOS/Flutter clients (depending on how well the protobuf compiler is integrated in your toolchain). For web clients, last time I checked, grpc-web was the most complete implementation/tool, but couldn't make it work with the rest of our stack. Maybe spending more time I could've, but it got really frustrating and I gave up.
Re:The Future of Kubernetes by tkiolp4 on Sunday March 13, 2022 @09:08AM (#30660909)
To extend my comment: notice how the tech on the left side was/is usually backed up by companies or corporations while the tech on the right side usually is not. I think this is just a natural flow of software: some piece of software emerges for the benefit of a big corp disguised as open source… and suddenly everyone uses it. It takes some time to the “internet community” to come up with something better and less tied to any company in particular. It’s a win for everyone: Google is having his piece of cake with GKE now, the community thanks the effort and will use k8s as an inspiration to make something better.
Re:The Future of Kubernetes by hutrdvnj on Sunday March 13, 2022 @08:58AM (#30660851)
This is not always the case. Sometimes we use a technology for decades and just upgrade its version. Like HTML, HTTP, GCC, ... the list goes on. It's very possible that we still use k8s as major container orchestrator in a decade, just in a higher version.
Re:The Future of Kubernetes by xg15 on Sunday March 13, 2022 @09:37AM (#30661082)
I think a better way to think about it is in separating API and implementation or wire format and semantics.

In terms of the wire-format and the low-level concepts, HTTP2 and 3 are completely different from HTTP1.x. it's not an extension like HTTP1.1 was, it's a complete reinvention.

However, what they did was to reuse the high-level semantics and the "API" of HTTP1, so as a web developer you can pretty much pretend you're still using HTTP1 and let the browser and web server do the rest. This makes transition significantly easier.

I could imagine something similar with K9s. Maybe some other product will come along that supports (a subset of) the k9s API but does something different under the hood. I believe, k9s itself did so with Docker: You can still define k9s images using Dockerfiles, even though no piece of Docker is actually involved in the process.

Re:The Future of Kubernetes by rfoo on Sunday March 13, 2022 @10:06AM (#30661319)
I think all your examples are "simpler but less powerful" instead of "simpler yet more powerful".

25 years later and still, worse is better.

Re:The Future of Kubernetes by ksec on Sunday March 13, 2022 @09:31AM (#30661041)
>Flash -> html5

>Perforce, svn, mercurial -> git

Not sure I agree with those two. Edit: Someone beats me to it.

Re:The Future of Kubernetes by bg24 on Monday March 14, 2022 @01:30AM (#30668829)
I think K8s will become simpler and easier to use. There will be platforms (eg. Knative) on K8s, that will become the norm for starters.
Re:The Future of Kubernetes by nunez on Monday March 14, 2022 @01:16AM (#30668755)
nomad has been trying for years despite being "simpler" and open-source; it's still in third place :(
Re:The Future of Kubernetes by brianmcc on Monday March 14, 2022 @10:09AM (#30672623)
Agreed. My go-to example is: J2EE and EJBs in particular -> Spring.
Re:The Future of Kubernetes by godisdad on Sunday March 13, 2022 @01:30PM (#30663593)
- Java -> wasm