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Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by nextaccountic on Thursday March 10, 2022 @02:51AM (#30624280)
> Using onion services mitigates attacks that can be executed by possibly-malicious “Tor Exit Nodes” — which, though rare, are not nonexistent

Is there any evidence that the majority of exit nodes aren't malicious? There's only 300 or so in the US, 300 or so in Germany, and in other countries even less. What would it take for three letter agencies to compromise most of it?

I mean, suppose all of the existing nodes weren't malicious. Could a government agency plausibly run 1000 exit nodes in a way that doesn't give away they are government-run? This would make the majority of exit nodes malicious.

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by stingraycharles on Thursday March 10, 2022 @03:14AM (#30624466)
It’s not even about three letter agencies; many exit nodes are being scanned for passwords, if you happen to go through http instead of https.

Here’s research conducted years ago about this matter: https://www.vice.com/en/article/mgbdwv/badonion-honeypot-mal...

Effectively they set up a honeypot and used clear text passwords to log in, and plenty of exit nodes picked up on this and those credentials were later used to (attempt to) log in into the honeypot.

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by conradev on Thursday March 10, 2022 @10:24AM (#30627914)
I will also point out that even if they are only observing ciphertext, they can still glean a lot:

http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~claypool/papers/yt-crawler/final.pdf

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by thealig on Thursday March 10, 2022 @03:42AM (#30624654)
the article talks about the research stumbling upon exit nodes performing MITM and other sniffing but does not refer to the exact details. is there a paper for this?

only found this paper going over systematic process of exposing bad relays - http://www.cs.kau.se/philwint/spoiled_onions/pets2014.pdf

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by codsane on Thursday March 10, 2022 @07:52AM (#30626328)
It’s not related to that particular article, but you might find this interesting, they write about a lot of similar research: https://nusenu.medium.com/tracking-one-year-of-malicious-tor...
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by heavyset_go on Thursday March 10, 2022 @04:34AM (#30625025)
What research are you talking about? The article talks about at least two different researchers working on separate projects.

Here's the link for first one:https://web.archive.org/web/20150705184539/https://chloe.re/...

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by thealig on Thursday March 10, 2022 @11:51AM (#30629072)
well, was referring to the research indicated by the title of the article- honeypot setup to detect malicious exit relays.

yes thats the one. interesting, seems they caught 15 unique relays harvesting logins. There seems to be scope to improve reporting and detection of malicious actors like this. They also have a block list on Tor's gitlab repo but doesn't seem to be up to date.

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by Stevvo on Thursday March 10, 2022 @06:12AM (#30625646)
There were slides in the Snowden leaks where it laid out the NSA's strategy for dealing with TOR and compromising exit nodes was a big part of it. They have had the last 10 years to work on it; one might expect they had results.
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by RL_Quine on Thursday March 10, 2022 @02:59AM (#30624351)
The behaviour of not always using the same exit means that you, over time, will almost assuredly use a malicious exit should more than zero exist. It's reckless to suggest that anybody should be using this system, your situation is almost always going to be worse than not.
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by bauruine on Thursday March 10, 2022 @03:54AM (#30624736)
The only attacks an exit alone can do is sniff all traffic and modify the traffic. There are constant checks done by the Torproject to detect bad exits that modify traffic but sniffing is not detectable of course. But both of those attacks are mitigated by https which most sites support nowadays. Firefox and therefore the Tor Browser also has an option to disable http. [0] And using an .onion service removes this attack vector also.

[0]: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/https-only-prefs

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by michaelt on Thursday March 10, 2022 @08:15AM (#30626536)
> But both of those attacks are mitigated by https which most sites support nowadays.

Unfortunately, not as much as you might hope.

For good reasons, the Tor browser doesn't store your browsing history - so there's no 'recently visited sites', no address bar autocomplete, no cached redirects, no cached HSTS, and no colour-changed 'visited' links.

So if you're visiting a site that isn't HSTS-preloaded - for example bitcoinknots.org - you'd better remember to type in the https:// explicitly, as that's your sole protection against getting MITMed.

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by vageli on Thursday March 10, 2022 @08:36AM (#30626711)
> So if you're visiting a site that isn't HSTS-preloaded - for example bitcoinknots.org - you'd better remember to type in the https:// explicitly, as that's your sole protection against getting MITMed.

>Tor Browser already comes with HTTPS Everywhere, NoScript, and other patches to protect your privacy and security.

https://www.torproject.org/download/

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by ryeights on Thursday March 10, 2022 @09:27AM (#30627239)
Caveat: HTTPS Everywhere relies on a manual whitelist of HTTPS-enabled sites. If the website you’re visiting isn’t popular enough to be on their list, you’re out of luck.
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by michaelt on Thursday March 10, 2022 @09:27AM (#30627240)
HTTPS Everywhere doesn't have a working rule for bitcoinknots.org

And more broadly, neither HSTS preloading or HTTPS Everywhere include a list of every single site on the internet.

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by tialaramex on Thursday March 10, 2022 @10:29AM (#30627975)
Mentioned below that HTTPS-default (which is an option in ordinary Firefox) is intended to become mandatory in Tor-browser.

I use this on my main PC. Once or twice a day I might visit some old or especially cantankerous site that doesn't do HTTPS, I get a full page interstitial explaining the problem, I can decide if I'm OK with that. Otherwise every single link, typed URL, etc. is HTTPS regardless of whether that was what was originally written.

I wouldn't recommend it in its current state for my mother, but it's definitely what someone using Tor would want, and it's only getting more ubiquitous.

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by aendruk on Thursday March 10, 2022 @11:33AM (#30628802)
I’m surprised to hear it’s not just using the native HTTPS-only mode now.
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by rsync on Thursday March 10, 2022 @03:31PM (#30632037)
"... you'd better remember to type in the https:// explicitly ..."

You should use a slug[1] if you need assurance that you’re staying on your vpn/protocol/exit.

It would be very simple to create a "tor only" network slug.

[1] https://john.kozubik.com/pub/NetworkSlug/tip.html

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by RL_Quine on Thursday March 10, 2022 @04:23AM (#30624949)
If they're not checking everything, any sort of non-general modification of traffic will obviously go completely unnoticed. The bad exit flag really is only ever going to catch the most obvious, ham fisted bad behaviour.
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by bauruine on Thursday March 10, 2022 @04:36AM (#30625040)
You're correct this isn't really a solution but Tor Browser has already merged https only mode [0] so this should become less of an issue in the near future.

[0]: https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/applications/tor-browser/-...

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by heavyset_go on Thursday March 10, 2022 @02:59AM (#30624352)
Even if every exit node in the US is operated by private people or organizations, courts can compel the node owners to work with the government and not talk about it.
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by MichaelBurge on Thursday March 10, 2022 @05:53AM (#30625499)
Courts can't compel you not to talk. They can merely punish you after-the-fact.

So if you're talking about "everyone in a giant group of people" and doing it routinely, existence of those secret subpoenas seem like they'd get leaked eventually. Especially if it's hard to tell which of the 300 people leaked it.

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by lazide on Thursday March 10, 2022 @10:13AM (#30627786)
Any of these TLAs will love figuring out who leaked it, and it usually isn’t hard.

And knowing this, the jail time or personal life destruction that would almost inevitably occur isn’t worth it for almost anyone.

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by bauruine on Thursday March 10, 2022 @04:00AM (#30624769)
Can you just shutdown your nodes or can they force you to continue? Best practice for relay operators is to just stop the operation altogether if the authorities force you to attack the users.
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by kevingadd on Thursday March 10, 2022 @04:50AM (#30625098)
They could probably compel you to continue, or forcibly take over the node. Once you're in NSL "we can do anything we want and you can't tell anyone about it" land, being prevented from shutting down your own business or service isn't terribly far-fetched.
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by Jerrrry on Thursday March 10, 2022 @10:09AM (#30627731)
The government cannot anyone to work without pay.

This seems obvious but it is a constitutional right that has been cited as a reason to not comply with extra-judicial pressure to assist the government with an investigation.

This is why some projects do not accept donations and have a canary.

Had the authors of Truecrypt been paid, they could had been compelled to modify their source code to the government's will.

By not accepting payment, they are protecting themselves.

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by kevingadd on Thursday March 10, 2022 @01:19PM (#30630391)
https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/what-defense-production-act grants the US government significant control over the US economy and businesses. As it turns out, we're still at war :-)
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by londgine on Thursday March 10, 2022 @09:38PM (#30635491)
> the government cannot force anything to work without pay

but they can force people to work with pay https://www.wbay.com/2022/01/20/thedacare-seeks-court-order-...

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by jaywalk on Thursday March 10, 2022 @12:26PM (#30629587)
> it is a constitutional right

Ahem... "terrorism!"

Poof! Now your Constitutional rights no longer exist.

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by nix23 on Thursday March 10, 2022 @03:26AM (#30624552)
I know this is possible for organizations in the US, but for private persons too?
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by TuringTest on Thursday March 10, 2022 @03:13AM (#30624454)
Aren't there warrant canaries set up to prevent this? Every website that can be compelled to behave that way should have one.
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by rwmj on Thursday March 10, 2022 @03:25AM (#30624543)
How could a warrant canary work when you don't know which exit node you will connect to?
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by krageon on Thursday March 10, 2022 @03:52AM (#30624720)
> Aren't there warrant canaries set up to prevent this?

No, because the police will tell you to not tell anyone about the court order. If you do so (for example using a warrant canary), you will be in big trouble. Those canaries were always a convenient fiction, almost to the point of it being entirely in question whether or not this fiction was created in good faith.

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by FeepingCreature on Thursday March 10, 2022 @05:54AM (#30625500)
You can always be in trouble by the police for any reason or no reason at all. The question is law. The notion of a warrant canary is that the police cannot compel you to state that you are not under a court order. They can annoy you to lie, and they can always break the law, but they cannot legally force you to. To claim that regardless of this, the police can compel you to lie, is tantamount to saying that the rule of law has failed.

( https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/04/warrant-canary-faq )

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by krageon on Friday March 11, 2022 @05:04AM (#30638172)
> To claim that regardless of this, the police can compel you to lie, is tantamount to saying that the rule of law has failed.

Your life quality will take a sharp negative dive if you don't conform to the spirit of what they ask you. Whether or not such things are legal really is immaterial: You will be in trouble anyway. As such, I dislike advice that leans on what the law says.

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by vageli on Thursday March 10, 2022 @08:38AM (#30626732)
Has this ever been tested in court?
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by FeepingCreature on Thursday March 10, 2022 @09:45AM (#30627480)
Not to my knowledge.

Which can mean "no company has tried" or "no TLA has tried".

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by Jerrrry on Thursday March 10, 2022 @10:14AM (#30627797)
They cannot compel someone to re-authorize a deadman switches' canary.

If the canary doesn't receive a signed message within X amount of days, the canary sings.

Nobody can force someone to do work or self-incriminate.

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by Joakal on Thursday March 10, 2022 @05:03AM (#30625168)
Can those warrant canaries holders who follow police/court orders, be sued for false advertising?

Seems like a catch 22 that it's a lose-lose.

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by krageon on Thursday March 10, 2022 @05:14AM (#30625231)
If being sued for false advertising was a real risk, advertising would be a lot more truthful :)
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by idontwantthis on Thursday March 10, 2022 @05:05AM (#30625175)
What does compromising the exit do? I thought the layering means you would need to compromise the entire path to do anything.
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by foxfluff on Thursday March 10, 2022 @05:47AM (#30625446)
Exit node is where the tor-encrypted path ends and traffic goes to the clearnet.
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by idontwantthis on Thursday March 10, 2022 @06:37AM (#30625803)
What’s the point of any of it then to a paranoid user?
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by Shish2k on Friday March 11, 2022 @01:43PM (#30644215)
The reason to use the tor<->plaintext bridge is to route around censorship, eg the great firewall of china, or various western ISPs blackholing the pirate bay, and also to prevent the server from learning much about the client’s identity

If you don’t want any MITM possibilities, that’s what the onion services are for (both client and server are speaking over tor connections)

Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by lazide on Thursday March 10, 2022 @10:14AM (#30627800)
Got me - it looks like a decently effective honeypot though for ‘paranoid but hasn’t thought it all the way through’
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by crtasm on Thursday March 10, 2022 @11:32PM (#30636213)
the exit node has no knowledge of your IP address and your traffic should still be protected by HTTPS.
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by ufmace on Thursday March 10, 2022 @02:39PM (#30631436)
Because it switches over to the clearnet there, the operator could do stuff like intercept non-https traffic or use a malicious DNS to attempt to MITM https traffic.
Re:Why offer an Onion Address rather than just encourage bro... by bawolff on Thursday March 10, 2022 @04:00AM (#30624770)
Or just use HSTS. Problem solved.