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Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by berto4 on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:26AM (#30542234)
can solar run 24/7 factories?? it's not that simple guys
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by adrianN on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:53AM (#30542555)
With the help of electrolysis and a gas turbine, it can. The problem is that we don't have enough solar panels and not enough electrolyzers.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by HPsquared on Thursday March 03, 2022 @11:48AM (#30543387)
What's the round-trip efficiency of such a system? There are multiple lossy conversions, you'd be doing well to hit 50% if the gas is simply burned to spin a turbine.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by Joeri on Thursday March 03, 2022 @12:09PM (#30543649)
Solar and wind are already far cheaper than gas or nuclear plants, and they’re still getting cheaper while gas and nuclear are getting more expensive (although to be fair, gas has only recently gotten more expensive). In so far that the economics in favor of renewables+storage don’t work out yet factoring in conversion losses, it is all but inevitable that they will.

See the LCOE graphs in this article for the trends: https://ourworldindata.org/cheap-renewables-growth

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by The_rationalist on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:30PM (#30544759)
Nuclear is a lot cheaper than solar, it simply depends on the nuclear plant model. Russians are the world leaders regarding nuclear plants time to market and costs (4 years).
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by Joeri on Thursday March 03, 2022 @02:01PM (#30545213)
Which would be great if we could invite russia to build nuclear plants in the U.S. and EU. Right now that might not be the best plan.

We need a model that is cheap and safe everywhere, in every country, not just in china and russia.

Also, I wouldn’t put too much faith into Russian numbers for their nuclear projects. They’ve pretty much got the patent on propaganda.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by The_rationalist on Thursday March 03, 2022 @03:47PM (#30546749)
> Also, I wouldn’t put too much faith into Russian numbers for their nuclear projects. It's not propaganda because we are talking about a free market here. Countries around the world buy nuclear reactors from Russia. They are by far the biggest exporter.

Russia is not needed though, China is very cost effective and their popular model is in fact American based. Their other popular model is a french derivative. Their secret sauce is to build refined second generation models with added safety instead of building 4th generation economic ineptia because of absurdly high safety bloat. The answer to how to make nuclear reactors costs effective is simple: 1) Do not fire all competent and trained nuclear engineers 2) Make nuclear reactors maximally secure, not absurdly secure.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by adrianN on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:08PM (#30544471)
It's of course not particularly great. You can make hydrogen at like 80% efficiency and use it at like 60% efficiency in a combined cycle plant. So 50% is probably in the right ballpark. Batteries are much more efficient, but efficiency is only weakly correlated with cost. I don't know the actual numbers, but from what I've heard hydrogen (or even methane) are the most economically promising storage options when you need weeks or months worth of backup.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by kitkat_new on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:54AM (#30542562)
yes, batteries, power to gas, ...

There are many possiblities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_storage

Then there is wind power and other sources such as geothermal energy and Bio-gas Plants, which is are independant of day time. And let's not forget the lower energy demand at night, the possibilities for supply based energy consumption, (green) gas imports from somewhere else.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by contingencies on Thursday March 03, 2022 @02:49PM (#30545856)
Depends on the factory. Most production processes are multi-stage. Most multi-stage processes have differing energy needs across individual unit operations. You could easily schedule low energy, slow processes (testing, drying, settling, cooling, etc.) to evenings to better match power availability. This has the secondary benefit that people prefer to sleep at night. Normally you'd have to redesign the whole factory to facilitate such a process change, however.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by KarlKemp on Thursday March 03, 2022 @02:16PM (#30545400)
I don’t believe factories here in Germany run 24/7, to be honest. But anyway: wind energy is quite cheap at night.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by jotm on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:29AM (#30542254)
As I said, batteries of any kind... Nuclear would be better, but that takes time to build.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by exabrial on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:37AM (#30542345)
10000% Nuclear. France just announced a massive Nuclear project, meanwhile in the USA, the NRC bankrupts every project with non-stop delays instead of timely constructive work with designers, builders, and investors.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by Gwypaas on Thursday March 03, 2022 @11:14AM (#30542879)
The nuclear announcement makes nice headlines for nationalistic dreams. What they actually do tells the real story.

> France will also increase its solar power capacity tenfold by 2050 to more than 100 gigawatts (GW) and target building 50 offshore wind farms with a combined capacity of at least 40 GW.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/macron-bets-nuclear-...

So they are adding ~10 GW nuclear (6 * 1.6 GW) and at least 140 GW of renewables. Use any capacity factor you want but the numbers speak for themselves.

The real reason for this is likely continue have an industrial base for their naval submarine reactors by subsidizing a complementary civilian industry.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by exabrial on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:18PM (#30544609)
> The real reason for this is likely continue have an industrial base for their naval submarine reactors by subsidizing a complementary civilian industry.

Interesting, I've never read about that angle. Nuclear is a great complement to Wind/Solar as it provides a steady base load.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by Gwypaas on Thursday March 03, 2022 @02:36PM (#30545650)
The thing is, they don't complement each other at all. They both compete for the same share of the market: the cheapest most inflexible power generation. Renewables win there and force nuclear plants to be more flexible.

Due to the extremely high fixed costs and lower marginal costs of nuclear plants they then have to make the money back in fewer hours, driving cost even higher.

The other issue is the costly steam turbine side. The reason gas won over coal is the efficiency and tiny footprint of gas turbines. Tack on a tiny steam side for the last percent of efficiency and you have a CCGT plant. Coal and nuclear share the same steam side, both have been dead ends since the 80s.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by exabrial on Thursday March 03, 2022 @03:47PM (#30546754)
That is not true. They do not compete for the some market segment.

The problem is most renewables fall off before peak load subsides. That's why cheap energy storage would be a huge boon for transient renewables as they could keep providing energy after the sun is down and the wind has subsided.

Take a look here: https://nuclear-power.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Base-Lo...

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by Gwypaas on Thursday March 03, 2022 @04:16PM (#30547107)
They do. This graph shows the nuclear "baseload" being crowded out of the market by cheaper renewables. (Or in this case mostly coal, but they are about equal on the electricity market in terms in inflexibility and cost structure.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_load#/media/File:Renewabl...

So, this means that nuclear is crowded out of the market during the sun hours, and later all windy hours. Take a low-ball nuclear cost of ~$130 per MWh. [1] Say that wind + solar can fulfill 12 hours per day, this is a low estimation. Current estimates is that ~80% is easily feasible without storage.

That means the nuclear plant has to make do with the 12 hours left. The nuclear plant has now, based on napkin math, entered a LCOE of $260 per MWh. It was already hilariously uncompetitive at $130 per MWh, now try $260. Now you can do power 2 gas and then burn it or any other extremely inefficient energy storage and still come out ahead.

> While historically large power grids used unvarying power plants to meet the base load, there is no specific technical requirement for this to be so. The base load can equally well be met by the appropriate quantity of intermittent power sources and dispatchable generation.

> Grid operators solicit bids to find the cheapest sources of electricity over short and long term buying periods.

> Nuclear and coal plants have very high fixed costs, high plant load factor but very low marginal costs, though not as low as solar, wind, and hydroelectric. On the other hand, peak load generators, such as natural gas, have low fixed costs, low plant load factor and high marginal costs.

> According to National Grid plc chief executive officer Steve Holliday and others, baseload is "outdated".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_load

[1]: https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-...

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by adrianN on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:55AM (#30542589)
When did France announce a massive nuclear project? The last news I heard was that they plan to build a couple of new nuclear power plants, but far from the numbers they'd need to maintain the current capacity as ageing plants go offline in the coming years.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by WillPostForFood on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:39PM (#30544881)
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/10/world/europe/france-macro...

Is this not a major project? The article is very lacking in details, so it is hard to tell what it amounts to in terms of impact.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by adrianN on Saturday March 05, 2022 @12:00AM (#30564435)
That really depends what "up to" means and how big the "fleet of smaller reactors" is going to be. Announcing up to 14 today is very little when you have over fifty reactors to replace in the next two or three decades when you consider that building a reactor takes around fifteen years. Nuclear energy hopes are pinned on those small reactors, but afaik, none of them are ready for prime time today.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by Retric on Thursday March 03, 2022 @11:15AM (#30542888)
While France is aiming to significantly reduce the number of nuclear power plants they operate, building any nuclear power plants is seen as a good sign by the industry.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by orthecreedence on Thursday March 03, 2022 @12:24PM (#30543828)
If you put solar panels on top of your nuclear power plant then yes it works 24/7.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by criddell on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:30AM (#30542270)
They understand that.