News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by jotm on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:18AM (#30542109)
I am quite afraid of Russia shutting off the gas and oil supply. I hope Europe doesn't give up on sanctions then, at least not right away.

Betting on Russia needing the income more than we need the resources.

Power will go out completely around here and partially in many other regions, but we can live through that.

Having solar (plus wind and batteries) is a major boon, and this would undoubtedly drive demand through the roof once people have no choice. Sadly, there isn't enough supply for everyone, especially power hungry industrial sites, and trucks/cars still run on fuel.

Solar concentrators would be easy to start producing locally, but they don't run well in cold temperatures and cloudy weather, plus they still need batteries of some sort.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by exabrial on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:26AM (#30542219)
I am certainly empathetic to having power and lights go out... In the midwestern USA, we survived last year with rotating blackouts during an unexpected winter storm that reached deep into Texas to parts that haven't seen snow in 50 years, and some parts ever receiving snow on recorded record.

That being said, people are dying because of cheap power and gas. I know it's easy for me to say halfway across the world from behind a keyboard, but I really hope you guys elect to have your power shut off (If that's what it takes) to help the people of the Ukraine. Russia knows Europe is energy dependent on it, and it's the one area we haven't totally cut them off on. It's a small sacrifice that would save a hundred thousand lives.

In the midwest, the grid operators had a plan to divert available power to critical places first like hospitals, traffic lights, etc. It was freezing hold and I had power for 45m every 2 hours for a few days. I survived, there were places I could go, life went on.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by bluejekyll on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:36AM (#30542334)
While what happened in Texas is good for empathy, it’s not exactly the same. The power outages there were due to a poorly regulated electrical market where the power stations froze in predictable ways.

Notice that it was only Texas utilities that experienced the most major issues.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by mschaef on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:47AM (#30542473)
> The power outages there were due to a poorly regulated electrical market where the power stations froze in predictable ways.

There were plenty of issues with the electrical system, but the Texas Nat Gas infrastructure was also culpable. They had wells that froze up. Wells also often produce water that can freeze in cold conditions and block a well. There are mitigations for this that were often not in place in TX.

They had also failed to submit paperwork indicating their electrically pumping stations were critical infrastructure and should not be shut off as many of them were.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by evv555 on Thursday March 03, 2022 @12:08PM (#30543643)
>While what happened in Texas is good for empathy, it’s not exactly the same. The power outages there were due to a poorly regulated electrical market where the power stations froze in predictable ways.

Situation in West Europe is also based in energy politics, a lack of energy security planning, and no impact studies from shutting down nuclear power plants.

There are parallels in my mind in that both are a product of short sighted ideological thinking.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by exabrial on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:44AM (#30542422)
Neither statement is true but is oft repeated. I can bring some clarity:

A poorly regulated electrical market doesn't make a poor user experience. In fact, it was government meddling that created the crisis: Forced closure of coal plants before suitable replacements that could withstand 100 weather year events were available. The free market in Texas has and was leaps and bounds ahead of other markets in green energy production. Texas has also wanted to build countless nuclear projects that are stonewalled by the NRC and other green energy projects that die due to EPA or other local agencies. Believe it or not, green energy companies play dirty too and leverage government bureaucracy to stifle competition and expansion of green energy.

Secondly, it was not Only Texas. I live in Kansas and travel to Missouri weekly and we certainly had outages. The reason is all of these areas are covered by the "Southwest Power Pool" which is a generation pool which agree to sell energy to each other and help out during extreme events (an oversipmlication, but good enough for a HN comment). Texas operators trade energy in multiple markets so nearby locations were affected. My home state, produces nearly 2/3 of its energy from green sources: wind and nuclear and the excess is sold to the SPP and can be consumed in Texas.

Texas is in fact the _ideal_ energy market, as new ideas can compete immediately and directly and operate on small scales. We'd be doing ourselves a huge favor to operate more grids like this as it lower the entry bar for clean energy startups.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by mschaef on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:56AM (#30542606)
> Secondly, it was not Only Texas. I live in Kansas and travel to Missouri weekly and we certainly had outages.

ERCOT was down easily 30-35GW (40-50%) of generation and cut power for days across large swaths of the state. SPP had outages, but not nearly as extensive in terms of MW shortfall, number of customers impacted, or duration of the impact.

> My home state, produces nearly 2/3 of its energy from green sources: wind and nuclear and the excess is sold to the SPP and can be consumed in Texas.

The only part of Texas it can really be consumed in are the parts of Texas served by SPP in the extreme NOrth (that are interconnected with the rest of the Eastern Interconnection). There are a couple small (<1GW) DC tie lines into ERCOT, but not nearly enough to do the sort of bulk power transport that would've been helpful during last February.)

> The reason is all of these areas are covered by the "Southwest Power Pool" which is a generation pool which agree to sell energy to each other and help out during extreme events (an oversipmlication, but good enough for a HN comment). Texas operators trade energy in multiple markets so nearby locations were affected.

SPP and ERCOT both have 'generation pools' and markets that enable them to serve load across their service areas. What SPP has that ERCOT does not are extensive connections to neighboring pools (MISO, PJM, etc.) and more adequately winterized generation and fuel supply infrastructure. The CEO of SPP gave an interview on an energy podcast last spring where she directly credits the ability bring in power from PJM and MISO as helping SPP serve its load. That sort of option wasn't even available to ERCOT.

Notably, the other option unavailable to ERCOT is exporting/selling wind power to neighboring ISO's.... The Texas focus on avoiding federal energy regulation is costing them the ability to sell one of their strong suits into a broader market.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by bluejekyll on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:48AM (#30542487)
I use the article from the Atlantic. And I did not say other areas didn’t have problems, only that it was Texas that suffered most: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2021/02/what-...
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by Ajef on Friday March 04, 2022 @04:46AM (#30552586)
As a German I'm uncertain of what I'd want. I can totally imagine next winter being harsh, lacking power and heating. I'm less afraid of that than I am of it being a cause for people to use it to build national pride along the lines of "do without for the sake of Germany and your fellow man"... I don't think I'll have a problem living without heating in the winter... electricity is probably harder. I think the media message that will go along with it might change something in Germany I don't want to see.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by landemva on Friday March 04, 2022 @01:26AM (#30551342)
' ...people are dying because of cheap power and gas.'

Cheap power raises living standards. How do people die from voluntarily choosing less expensive energy?

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by gwbas1c on Thursday March 03, 2022 @11:03AM (#30542720)
I suspect that oil will be brought in from other sources; and gas turbines will be retrofitted to run on oil.

I live near a turbine that runs on gas in the summer, and oil in the winter when demand for gas is high.

I also suspect that prices will rise, encouraging people to turn their thermostats down and limit travel.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by sharken on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:23AM (#30542186)
A benefit is that we can seize the opportunity to get away from relying too much on oil and gas.

Time to get started.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by neilwilson on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:49PM (#30545024)
Russia has no need of the income because it is in a denomination they can’t now spend.

Countries only need to export to the extent that they can get imports. Anything beyond that is a waste - and clearly so now that foreign reserves are being frozen and defaulted on.

Russia is keeping the gas on to keep the EU out of the war.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by yeellow on Thursday March 03, 2022 @02:28PM (#30545556)
They keep nukes to keep EU (well, NATO) out of the war. The gas is flowing because it's their last card, if they stop the gas they will lose it and EU will be forced to look for alternatives asap and won't come back. Selling more to China is not a good short option because as I understand there is no infrastructure, most pipes go to the west. Russia needs this money to trade with China, they won't accept Rubble.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by neilwilson on Saturday March 05, 2022 @08:32AM (#30567412)
China and Russia have swap arrangements.

And China uses Yuan, not Euros.

In very international trade the buyer uses the currency they have and the seller gets the currency they want. The finance system is there to make the match.

We don’t trade using pebbles. We trade using promises that are created on demand.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by berto4 on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:26AM (#30542234)
can solar run 24/7 factories?? it's not that simple guys
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by adrianN on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:53AM (#30542555)
With the help of electrolysis and a gas turbine, it can. The problem is that we don't have enough solar panels and not enough electrolyzers.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by HPsquared on Thursday March 03, 2022 @11:48AM (#30543387)
What's the round-trip efficiency of such a system? There are multiple lossy conversions, you'd be doing well to hit 50% if the gas is simply burned to spin a turbine.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by Joeri on Thursday March 03, 2022 @12:09PM (#30543649)
Solar and wind are already far cheaper than gas or nuclear plants, and they’re still getting cheaper while gas and nuclear are getting more expensive (although to be fair, gas has only recently gotten more expensive). In so far that the economics in favor of renewables+storage don’t work out yet factoring in conversion losses, it is all but inevitable that they will.

See the LCOE graphs in this article for the trends: https://ourworldindata.org/cheap-renewables-growth

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by The_rationalist on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:30PM (#30544759)
Nuclear is a lot cheaper than solar, it simply depends on the nuclear plant model. Russians are the world leaders regarding nuclear plants time to market and costs (4 years).
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by Joeri on Thursday March 03, 2022 @02:01PM (#30545213)
Which would be great if we could invite russia to build nuclear plants in the U.S. and EU. Right now that might not be the best plan.

We need a model that is cheap and safe everywhere, in every country, not just in china and russia.

Also, I wouldn’t put too much faith into Russian numbers for their nuclear projects. They’ve pretty much got the patent on propaganda.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by The_rationalist on Thursday March 03, 2022 @03:47PM (#30546749)
> Also, I wouldn’t put too much faith into Russian numbers for their nuclear projects. It's not propaganda because we are talking about a free market here. Countries around the world buy nuclear reactors from Russia. They are by far the biggest exporter.

Russia is not needed though, China is very cost effective and their popular model is in fact American based. Their other popular model is a french derivative. Their secret sauce is to build refined second generation models with added safety instead of building 4th generation economic ineptia because of absurdly high safety bloat. The answer to how to make nuclear reactors costs effective is simple: 1) Do not fire all competent and trained nuclear engineers 2) Make nuclear reactors maximally secure, not absurdly secure.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by adrianN on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:08PM (#30544471)
It's of course not particularly great. You can make hydrogen at like 80% efficiency and use it at like 60% efficiency in a combined cycle plant. So 50% is probably in the right ballpark. Batteries are much more efficient, but efficiency is only weakly correlated with cost. I don't know the actual numbers, but from what I've heard hydrogen (or even methane) are the most economically promising storage options when you need weeks or months worth of backup.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by kitkat_new on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:54AM (#30542562)
yes, batteries, power to gas, ...

There are many possiblities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_storage

Then there is wind power and other sources such as geothermal energy and Bio-gas Plants, which is are independant of day time. And let's not forget the lower energy demand at night, the possibilities for supply based energy consumption, (green) gas imports from somewhere else.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by contingencies on Thursday March 03, 2022 @02:49PM (#30545856)
Depends on the factory. Most production processes are multi-stage. Most multi-stage processes have differing energy needs across individual unit operations. You could easily schedule low energy, slow processes (testing, drying, settling, cooling, etc.) to evenings to better match power availability. This has the secondary benefit that people prefer to sleep at night. Normally you'd have to redesign the whole factory to facilitate such a process change, however.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by KarlKemp on Thursday March 03, 2022 @02:16PM (#30545400)
I don’t believe factories here in Germany run 24/7, to be honest. But anyway: wind energy is quite cheap at night.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by jotm on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:29AM (#30542254)
As I said, batteries of any kind... Nuclear would be better, but that takes time to build.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by exabrial on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:37AM (#30542345)
10000% Nuclear. France just announced a massive Nuclear project, meanwhile in the USA, the NRC bankrupts every project with non-stop delays instead of timely constructive work with designers, builders, and investors.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by Gwypaas on Thursday March 03, 2022 @11:14AM (#30542879)
The nuclear announcement makes nice headlines for nationalistic dreams. What they actually do tells the real story.

> France will also increase its solar power capacity tenfold by 2050 to more than 100 gigawatts (GW) and target building 50 offshore wind farms with a combined capacity of at least 40 GW.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/macron-bets-nuclear-...

So they are adding ~10 GW nuclear (6 * 1.6 GW) and at least 140 GW of renewables. Use any capacity factor you want but the numbers speak for themselves.

The real reason for this is likely continue have an industrial base for their naval submarine reactors by subsidizing a complementary civilian industry.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by exabrial on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:18PM (#30544609)
> The real reason for this is likely continue have an industrial base for their naval submarine reactors by subsidizing a complementary civilian industry.

Interesting, I've never read about that angle. Nuclear is a great complement to Wind/Solar as it provides a steady base load.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by Gwypaas on Thursday March 03, 2022 @02:36PM (#30545650)
The thing is, they don't complement each other at all. They both compete for the same share of the market: the cheapest most inflexible power generation. Renewables win there and force nuclear plants to be more flexible.

Due to the extremely high fixed costs and lower marginal costs of nuclear plants they then have to make the money back in fewer hours, driving cost even higher.

The other issue is the costly steam turbine side. The reason gas won over coal is the efficiency and tiny footprint of gas turbines. Tack on a tiny steam side for the last percent of efficiency and you have a CCGT plant. Coal and nuclear share the same steam side, both have been dead ends since the 80s.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by exabrial on Thursday March 03, 2022 @03:47PM (#30546754)
That is not true. They do not compete for the some market segment.

The problem is most renewables fall off before peak load subsides. That's why cheap energy storage would be a huge boon for transient renewables as they could keep providing energy after the sun is down and the wind has subsided.

Take a look here: https://nuclear-power.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Base-Lo...

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by Gwypaas on Thursday March 03, 2022 @04:16PM (#30547107)
They do. This graph shows the nuclear "baseload" being crowded out of the market by cheaper renewables. (Or in this case mostly coal, but they are about equal on the electricity market in terms in inflexibility and cost structure.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_load#/media/File:Renewabl...

So, this means that nuclear is crowded out of the market during the sun hours, and later all windy hours. Take a low-ball nuclear cost of ~$130 per MWh. [1] Say that wind + solar can fulfill 12 hours per day, this is a low estimation. Current estimates is that ~80% is easily feasible without storage.

That means the nuclear plant has to make do with the 12 hours left. The nuclear plant has now, based on napkin math, entered a LCOE of $260 per MWh. It was already hilariously uncompetitive at $130 per MWh, now try $260. Now you can do power 2 gas and then burn it or any other extremely inefficient energy storage and still come out ahead.

> While historically large power grids used unvarying power plants to meet the base load, there is no specific technical requirement for this to be so. The base load can equally well be met by the appropriate quantity of intermittent power sources and dispatchable generation.

> Grid operators solicit bids to find the cheapest sources of electricity over short and long term buying periods.

> Nuclear and coal plants have very high fixed costs, high plant load factor but very low marginal costs, though not as low as solar, wind, and hydroelectric. On the other hand, peak load generators, such as natural gas, have low fixed costs, low plant load factor and high marginal costs.

> According to National Grid plc chief executive officer Steve Holliday and others, baseload is "outdated".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_load

[1]: https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-...

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by adrianN on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:55AM (#30542589)
When did France announce a massive nuclear project? The last news I heard was that they plan to build a couple of new nuclear power plants, but far from the numbers they'd need to maintain the current capacity as ageing plants go offline in the coming years.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by WillPostForFood on Thursday March 03, 2022 @01:39PM (#30544881)
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/10/world/europe/france-macro...

Is this not a major project? The article is very lacking in details, so it is hard to tell what it amounts to in terms of impact.

Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by adrianN on Saturday March 05, 2022 @12:00AM (#30564435)
That really depends what "up to" means and how big the "fleet of smaller reactors" is going to be. Announcing up to 14 today is very little when you have over fifty reactors to replace in the next two or three decades when you consider that building a reactor takes around fifteen years. Nuclear energy hopes are pinned on those small reactors, but afaik, none of them are ready for prime time today.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by Retric on Thursday March 03, 2022 @11:15AM (#30542888)
While France is aiming to significantly reduce the number of nuclear power plants they operate, building any nuclear power plants is seen as a good sign by the industry.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by orthecreedence on Thursday March 03, 2022 @12:24PM (#30543828)
If you put solar panels on top of your nuclear power plant then yes it works 24/7.
Re:Russian gas flows via Yamal pipeline to Germany halt, bid... by criddell on Thursday March 03, 2022 @10:30AM (#30542270)
They understand that.