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Re:Settings are not a design failure by w0mbat on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @01:44PM (#30181974)
When I was an engineer on Microsoft Office, users would often request features that the product already had. It was great that their problem was quickly fixed (just point them to the right setting), but it shows the lack of discoverability that happens when the list of settings gets long and you have to dig for them. If you can do the right thing automatically and avoid having a setting, that is an improvement.

My other observation was that everybody said Office had too many features and then asked for two more.

Re:Settings are not a design failure by Groxx on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:22PM (#30182628)
One of my favorite things about OSX are the standardized menus... which includes a search field in the "Help" menu. Searching for things there will show you where the menu is - it's a wonderful tool for both discovery and future optimization. And it's in every application.

I only wish it applied to more places. E.g. it searches help files, but they're basically always worthless, and it doesn't search non-menu things (settings, in-window toolbars, etc). Intellij has a nice cmd-shift-A which does most of this ("search everywhere" iirc), and I use it absolutely endlessly.

Re:Settings are not a design failure by inglor_cz on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:45PM (#30183797)
This works in Windows too, but with one major flaw. If your Windows are localized (e.g. Czech), you will have to enter the correct name of the setting or service in Czech and entering its English name won't help you.

Which is a problem, because the vast majority of StackOverflow-like Q&As are in English and mention the necessary setting in English, of course.

And you cannot rely on your translational abilities, because many of the translations in Windows are stilted.

Re:Settings are not a design failure by chrismorgan on Thursday February 03, 2022 @01:33AM (#30189400)
What? Windows has nothing in the slightest bit like macOS’s searchable menus. I suspect you may be describing the Settings app which lets you search by name, synonyms or description, and takes you to the appropriate place, but that’s a far cry from a searchable menus across all apps, where the searching also shows you the path to that menu item.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by inglor_cz on Thursday February 03, 2022 @02:17AM (#30189636)
Wow, I didn't realize that macOS searched menus across all apps. TIL!
Re:Settings are not a design failure by Groxx on Thursday February 03, 2022 @01:15PM (#30196284)
It's really nice: https://imgur.com/a/ZKSSiQc you can click the help entry and it'll act like the real menu too.

It's part of the standard, default menus on almost literally everything. There are ways to hide it if you're determined to be an asshole app (Cisco AnyConnect does this for instance, though there are so few menu items that it's not too horrible), but it's exceedingly rare because you have to explicitly remove it to have that happen. Far, far below 1%, it's mostly just awful corpware.

Re:Settings are not a design failure by MonaroVXR on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @07:00PM (#30186218)
Nothing wrong with the Dutch one, when I use the English version of Windows. If I recall correctly.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by derkades on Thursday February 03, 2022 @03:55AM (#30190274)
A Dutch Windows 10 install won't find "control panel", but it will find "configuratiescherm". It won't find "credential manager", it will find "referentiebeheer". At least it was like this when I used windows ~2 years ago. Definitely a pain point.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by skneko on Thursday February 03, 2022 @06:39AM (#30191220)
That is strange. My Windows is in Spanish and 2 years ago it found everything in English with no issues and today it still does (Windows 10)
Re:Settings are not a design failure by spaetzleesser on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:20PM (#30183442)
Reminds me of the search in iOS. I can find an app but it doesn’t tell me on what page or folder the f…ing app is.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by bobbylarrybobby on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @07:13PM (#30186372)
Page, no, but spotlight definitely tells you the app's folder (if it's in one)
Re:Settings are not a design failure by nicbou on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:17PM (#30183381)
Cmd + Shift + P has the same purpose in Sublime Text. It's a really useful feature indeed.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by abdusco on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:42PM (#30183752)
Shift+Shift on Jetbrains IDEs. The best search feature by far. It fuzzy searches text, symbols, settings, actions, it also works with synonyms. No need to fiddle through settings.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by WallowingInShit on Thursday February 03, 2022 @10:10AM (#30193378)
M-x in emacs
Re:Settings are not a design failure by Destiner on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @04:19PM (#30184201)
Even better, if you use something like Raycast [1], you can search menu items via a global command palette without touching the mouse at all.

[1] https://www.raycast.com/

Re:Settings are not a design failure by hbn on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:41PM (#30182904)
This isn't really the point of the discussion, but I've always found MS Office features particularly hard to discover because even if you Google for it, half the results are for a different version that has a totally different UI from your version.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by frosted-flakes on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:19PM (#30183428)
Why are you getting results for Office 2003 and earlier? I doubt people are still writing stuff for 19-year-old software.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by spaetzleesser on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:22PM (#30183464)
Same problem in StackOverflow. I always have to check how old the answer is.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by drexlspivey on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @04:54PM (#30184602)
Sounds like SO needs a setting to hide old answers
Re:Settings are not a design failure by hinkley on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @07:20PM (#30186449)
Sounds like SO needs to stop closing questions as duplicates when the accepted answer is seven years old.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by BeFlatXIII on Thursday February 03, 2022 @10:05AM (#30193300)
They should have a way to close the _old_ question as a duplicate and point it at the new one for handling outdated answers.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by hinkley on Thursday February 03, 2022 @12:17PM (#30195291)
That might require SO to do some light semver tracking but I don't think that's too much to ask.

Maybe people don't need to see questions asked when Tomcat 8.mumble was new now that we're on 10.something.

Re:Settings are not a design failure by IshKebab on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @04:32PM (#30184355)
That and the categorisation of tools into the different ribbon tabs seems completely arbitrary.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by danShumway on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:54PM (#30183939)
The other side of this is that you were getting requests for those settings, users wanted to be able to set them. Agreed that discoverability was a problem, but behind the discoverability, people wanted the ability to define custom behaviors or change default behaviors. I think you sum it up perfectly with:

> If you can do the right thing automatically

I think a lot of software will shoot for doing the right thing automatically when they don't actually know what the right thing is. Or they'll remove the options because they think that the users don't want settings at all. But users do often want all of the behaviors (even the contradictory behaviors) that settings enable -- they just also want those settings to be discoverable and intuitive, and ideally they don't want to think about what they're set to most of the time.

As an analogy, as a user I like automatic high beams in my car if they work well. And having an automatic mode that's turned on by default might mean that I don't need to spend as much time messing with my high-beam brightness, and that's great. In a world where they worked perfectly, I might never even need to learn how to adjust the beam brightness myself. But I still want the behavior of different beam brightness in different contexts.

There's a trap designers fall into sometimes where they say, "settings are too hard for users, therefore the headlights should only have one brightness." If a bunch of users are asking you about something, that means they're engaged with and care about the functionality they're asking about. It might of course indicate that different defaults should be set, or that UI should be reorganized. And if you can do the right thing automatically, then you might be able to get rid of a lot of those support calls by doing that instead. But make sure you actually can first, because users are signaling with those support calls that they do care about that feature/behavior.

Re:Settings are not a design failure by taeric on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @01:56PM (#30182206)
This isn't limited to software. Many don't know that cars indicate where this the fuel tank is. Or that seatbelts lock if you pull them all the way out.

Really, the list of hidden features on products is such that nobody has solved discovery. Affordances that work are ones that mimic already learned behaviors. But shared learning is not as universal as folks think it is.

Interactive systems that let you ask "what will this do?" Or "why did that happen?" Are very good. But even that is hard to work with sometimes. Consider how few folks use the apropos utility.

Re:Settings are not a design failure by brimble on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:19PM (#30182579)
> Or that seatbelts lock if you pull them all the way out.

Haha, I'd think only people who were never in a car as a child wouldn't know that. An adult might not mess with them enough to suss out that behavior, but kids loooove playing with seat belts.

Re:Settings are not a design failure by bobbylarrybobby on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @07:17PM (#30186413)
Or people born before seatbelts were invented
Re:Settings are not a design failure by Sohcahtoa82 on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:20PM (#30183431)
> Or that seatbelts lock if you pull them all the way out.

My brother-in-law is large enough that when he pulls his seatbelt out far enough to actually go around him, it locks, and he absolutely hates it.

Is there a reason this "feature" even exists?

Re:Settings are not a design failure by lloeki on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:24PM (#30183508)
Attaching baby car seats, you're supposed to reel it out all the way which triggers the lock (or rather one-way reel) and then reel it in with the guarantee that it won't reel out.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by LeifCarrotson on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:22PM (#30183476)
I assume he's not a parent? That feature is used every time you install a child's carseat.

Edit: Gah! As a Dad myself I am compelled to add that his lack of experience with carseats is clearly aparent to me.

Re:Settings are not a design failure by oxfeed65261 on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @04:26PM (#30184279)
This is no longer true, at least since 2003 in the US. Car seats are now attached using the far-more-secure three-point LATCH system. I never once “used this feature” when installing a car seat for my now-twelve-year-old.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by LeifCarrotson on Thursday February 03, 2022 @11:39AM (#30194653)
The LATCH system has a maximum combined weight of the carseat plus child of 65 pounds. As a result, the threshold varies with the weight of your carseat and weight of your child, but a typical 4- or 5-year old probably should be using the belt.

https://csftl.org/whats-the-deal-with-weight-limits/

Personally, I don't think that was a good threshold to set. I agree that the LATCH anchors are better. In 2003, I suppose people were mostly using carseats for infants and toddlers in little 10-pound styrofoam shells, now we know kids are safer in carseats until they're significantly older and heavier, and they're in 25-pound adjustable, heavily bolstered bucket seat style carseats.

Re:Settings are not a design failure by bradstewart on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @05:29PM (#30185001)
For what it's worth, whilst my car and carseat have the LATCH system, this particular carseat requires use of the seat belt instead of the LATCH lower anchors for kids over 30 pounds.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by mh- on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @05:28PM (#30184992)
yeah, I had no idea this was the purpose behind the feature until this thread - my kids are young enough that our cars have always had LATCH since they were born.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by jcelerier on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:06PM (#30182333)
> but it shows the lack of discoverability that happens when the list of settings gets long and you have to dig for them.

how many users is this in proportion of the silent majority which has no trouble finding what they want in the menus ? you can't base a judgment on complaints alone

Re:Settings are not a design failure by crispyambulance on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:30PM (#30183583)
> you can't base a judgment on complaints alone

Nor can you assume that the users who are are NOT complaining are happy. They may just be enduring the crappiness until they can jump to something that's better.

"Discoverability" is perhaps not exactly the right word here.

Just because something is "there" (SOMEWHERE) doesn't mean it's discoverable. The users might have completely different vocabulary to describe features that are are present but which have an unexpected name. Or they might have a workflow in mind that doesn't give a name to what they need, but which is nonetheless there.

I think this is hard problem.

With any "complex-enough" tools, one just needs guidance or straight-up training. Fusion-360 comes to mind. It's a very popular and rather nice CAD tool that has enormous, wide-ranging capabilities. Autodesk has a never-ending stream of training videos and courses dedicating to showing users how to do things with it. Without these, its just too difficult for people to "discover" how to use the thing.

Re:Settings are not a design failure by thfuran on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:09PM (#30182392)
And you can't presume that a majority of people were able to find it rather than just giving up.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by titzer on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:24PM (#30182671)
Agreed, which is why user studies are (or should still be) a thing. You can't just add telemetry and hope A/B testing will surface the real struggles people have with your products. Likewise, you can't remove the 1% case of "restore backup after critical failure" feature because it's used rarely. It'd be like removing seatbelts from cars or fire extinguishers from kitchens.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by barnabee on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @02:07PM (#30182360)
I think it's ok that people don't know. Doing better at discovery is obviously better but if there is a manual/help function that explains all the features... good enough.

Some people want to take the effort to become proficient with their tools, others are doomed to wish they had features that are right in front of them.

But being less powerful, efficient, and adaptable to keep the design clean and simple and make everything discoverable should be an anti-pattern for serious apps and tools.

Re:Settings are not a design failure by ako on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @04:26PM (#30184274)
My biggest problem with manual/help is when i don't know how to search for what i need. How is it called in the manual? You might even arrive at a page that explains it, but you may not recognize it. Often manual pages simple explain how to do something, without explaining why and when it is relevant.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by dschuessler on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @05:28PM (#30184988)
> but it shows the lack of discoverability that happens when the list of settings gets long and you have to dig for them.

I wonder to what extent command palettes are the solution. At least for me, they are the pinnacle of discoverability. Throw the list of all settings and actions into an easily discoverable command palette and let the user search for them by filtering the list. Make it fuzzy enough to account for different formulations of the problem. VSCode does it (mostly) right.

Re:Settings are not a design failure by max49 on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @09:09PM (#30187531)
>but it shows the lack of discoverability that happens when the list of settings gets long and you have to dig for them. I

A hard to find setting is better than not having the feature to begin with. The main prblen with "modern" UIs is that they are strait up removing feature and acting like its a good thing.

I know it's partially off-topic... but Instagram removing the ability to view content without and account and pretending they did it for the benefit of the users is pure BS and it gets even worse when you consider how agressive they are at requesting your phone number.

Re:Settings are not a design failure by DavidVoid on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:03PM (#30183204)
> the lack of discoverability that happens when the list of settings gets long and you have to dig for them

Any modern application that has more than 20 settings should have a good search function in its settings menu. That way you can have as many configurable options as you like without them being impossible to find. The defaults should ofc be the most common (or best) ones, but some users really do value customizability and respecting the users is (almost) always a good idea.

Re:Settings are not a design failure by snarfy on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @06:19PM (#30185649)
They are all kitchen sink apps these days. I want purpose built apps not multi apps. Teams e.g. does not need excel integration. Instead of the engineers moving on to a new app to develop they cram more features into the existing one, until it's a multi app zombocom that can do anything.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by tshaddox on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @05:11PM (#30184809)
Is there any problem whatsoever about users regularly requesting features that the product already has? That doesn't seem distinct from customer support helping you understand how to use the product, which also doesn't seem like a problem. Of course, you could use data about customer service conversations to inform design decisions intended to make certain features more or less prominent in the UI.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by mitchdoogle on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @07:41PM (#30186689)
It's wild that anyone could consider something to have too many features - just don't use the features you don't want!
Re:Settings are not a design failure by rjmorris on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @08:33PM (#30187181)
Not wild at all if those extra features get in the way and make it harder to do the subset of things you want to do. Those extra features also occupy the developers' attention, leaving less time for them to focus on the things you care about.
Re:Settings are not a design failure by throwawayboise on Wednesday February 02, 2022 @03:46PM (#30183807)
It's almost axiomatic that "Users don't read instructions," and a corrolary is that they don't explore settings pages or read the captions and tooltips that may be there.

If the software doesn't do something they want, most users will either use it as-is but be somewhat annoyed, or develop a (possibly manual) workaround. Most will not explore settings or read instructions, so spending a lot of time on "discoverability" is probably time better spent elsewhere.

Re:Settings are not a design failure by Bolkan on Thursday February 03, 2022 @04:03AM (#30190320)
Jetbrains handled it pretty well by adding a search box to the settings screen.