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Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by WalterBright on Sunday January 16, 2022 @05:18AM (#29954781)
Even the simple act of trying will improve your odds of success. Some basic strategies:

1. stay in school

2. don't do drugs

3. don't do crimes

If you want to be a pro basketball player, your odds will improve if you practice playing basketball. Want to be a guitar god? Get a guitar and start practicing. Every guitar god I've heard of have one thing in common - they played a lot, for many many years, before breaking through.

Doing nothing pretty much guarantees you won't get what you want.

This isn't rocket science.

> What do you mean by loser?

Doesn't matter what my personal definition is. I bet you have your own personal definition of a loser. You'll increase your odds of becoming one by doing what they do.

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by slim109ya on Sunday January 16, 2022 @07:07AM (#29955309)
Many guitar gods use drugs, Walt Disney and Bill Gates did not stay in school, and people like Mike Tyson and Kevin Mitnick were successful after comitting crimes.

There's just too many variables in life that make success more about luck than following general guidelines.

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by tjs8rj on Sunday January 16, 2022 @05:25PM (#29960926)
I think the confusion here is in part because success is so nebulous a term.

Consider success in the stock market, that’d be getting significantly better returns than the vast majority of people. Success in general is the same thing. If you don’t “beat the market” ie the average by a significant margin, you don’t really standout from the crowd as a success. Like the stock market: there is not general recipe that when followed will make you successful. That doesn’t mean there aren’t general things you can do to improve your odds of success, a simple proof of this is considering the negative: if you killed yourself youd lower your chances of finding success, so not killing yourself helps. Same with not getting locked up in jail, not murdering people, etc

Another fact is: success is not entirely luck else rich people (if that’s what we’re calling success) wouldn’t have so much in common. That doesn’t mean rich people and poor people are two different species, but clearly there are traits and behaviors that tend to increase your success odds.

If it’s a recipe you’re looking for, not that I’m all that successful, I’d say: know what you want to achieve, and devote significant time, effort, and thought towards achieving it, taking advantage of every opportunity you can, learning as much as possible, deliberate seek out luck filled situations like meeting new people, and be adaptable. If you do that for long enough and you aren’t successful, then a revolution is called for.

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by bennysomething on Sunday January 16, 2022 @09:50AM (#29956387)
The bill gates example always gets rolled out for some reason, he's an outlier. For most people, if they are at a good university, doing something they are good at, then graduating is probably a good idea. Bill gates made a calculated decision, Paul Allen persuaded him that they were about to miss out on the micro computer revolution. If you look at what bill gates accomplished as an under grad, there is a strong argument that he wasn't going to gain anything from staying on (Google the pancake problem bill gates). One of his professors remarked to a colleague that some kid bill is probably the smartest person he has ever met.

In short defining bill gates as a college drop out is a ridiculously narrow view. I'm guessing most people who drop out aren't on a path to success.

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by hirvi74 on Sunday January 16, 2022 @04:59PM (#29960645)
Wasn't his very affluent private high school one of the first schools in the nation to have a computer at the time? Again, this kind points back to something another post said about how one's success (in terms of monetary achievement) is strongly correlated to one's parental success. I mean, his mother held a high position in IBM at the time, and his father was a very successful lawyer while living in Seattle, Washington (a then, current affluent area of the US).

I'm not saying he wasn't some genius, or wasn't driven, or wasn't better than most in some way.

I just notice the part about Gates growing up in the ghettos of Baltimore or growing up in a trailer park in the deep, rural South, working multiple jobs while in high school just to survive, etc. is missing for him success story. Same goes for Musk, Jobs, etc.. Wealth doesn't guarantee success, but...

Wealth => greater % of better opportunities => greater % chance of being successful.

Luck plays a large role -- lucky to be intelligent, lucky to be rich, lucky to be in good health, lucky to be born in the right place, etc.. People hate to admit it because it takes away from their egocentric identities, but if Gates grew up in a poor rice farming village in Vietnam at the same time he grew up, we wouldn't be talking about him right now.

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by Apocryphon on Monday January 17, 2022 @07:26PM (#29973340)
It's an outlier, but Gates is far from the only prominent figure in tech who dropped out. It's a whole dang cliche at this point- Jobs, Zuckerberg, Ellison, Dorsey, Dell, Kalanick, Gabe Newell, Jan Koum of WhatsApp all dropped out. Even Page dropped out of his PhD program! Not to mention dropouts from other industries, from Richard Branson to Henry Ford.

This reoccurring pattern in tech is probably why Thiel came up with his whole "don't go to college" narrative.

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by DarylZero on Sunday January 16, 2022 @11:06AM (#29957082)
If you're talking about "success" as in getting a job, having a gapless resume, good background check, good credit, fitting the corporate mold, becoming the "organization man," etc., then you need to a college degree.

However, this is not a path to the _kind_ of success Bill Gates had, which has to do with getting in early on some new field's new monopoly.

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by hackerfromthefu on Monday January 17, 2022 @02:49PM (#29970937)
And watching that new field like a hawk, and outcompeting all the other hawks.
Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by DarylZero on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @07:10AM (#29977943)
A lot the "outcompeted" still left with billions.
Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by nickpp on Sunday January 16, 2022 @09:09AM (#29956086)
Focus on the common traits not a few outliers. Also some people had success despite certain behaviours they engaged in, or started those after reaching success.
Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by WalterBright on Sunday January 16, 2022 @01:45PM (#29958639)
> Many guitar gods use drugs

After becoming guitar gods, yes.

These responses just make me laugh. Do you really think you're going to improve your odds of success by failing to complete high school? from prison? desperately searching for your next drug fix?

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by bitwize on Sunday January 16, 2022 @06:17AM (#29955060)
> Some basic strategies:

> 1. stay in school

> 2. don't do drugs

> 3. don't do crimes

You forgot:

4. be born to rich parents

That probably has a greater influence on chances of success than most others.

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by kbenson on Sunday January 16, 2022 @06:24AM (#29955093)
It probably does, but it's not something you can affect, so not really of note when discussing what you can do to increase you odds of succeeding in something, which is what he was doing.

It's also worth noting that the advice applies to people born wealthy too. You aren't likely to become a guitar god without practice even if you have money. It just might be easier to find the time to actually practice.

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by hirvi74 on Sunday January 16, 2022 @05:16PM (#29960816)
> not really of note when discussing what you can do to increase you odds of succeeding in something

It's because it chips away at people's egos. It hurts people to realize how much of their success was pure luck. It's hard to look down on others that way. Same with intelligence -- no one chooses their intelligence, so I find it odd when people boast about their borderline-pseudo-science-better-than-you-score, I mean, IQ score.

What is the story about the emerald mining, abused Zambian worker who turned into billionaire who started their own space program again? Right, it wasn't that person, but the son of the family that owned the mines that started his own space program (Musk).

> It's also worth noting that the advice applies to people born wealthy too. You aren't likely to become a guitar god without practice even if you have money. It just might be easier to find the time to actually practice.

I completely agree. One has to use what is given to them, but it's a lot easier to use an ability when one has an opportunity.

I can't remember who, but a highly talented and famous musician , was once asked, "Who do you think the greatest <instrument> player of all time is?" He said, "It was probably some kid in a 3rd-world factory who never got to hold an instrument in their life."

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by kbenson on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @02:31PM (#29984483)
> It's because it chips away at people's egos.

I mean, I'm not going to dispute there's a massive amount of luck that goes into almost everyone's success, but I also think in many (probably even the vast majority) of cases, luck is just going to give you the opportunity, and drive and keeping on track as much as you can is what lets you take advantage of those opportunities.

The difference between the advantaged and disadvantaged is how many times those opportunities knock (or if you're really advantaged, kicks your door down and basically carries you).

Many people that have succeeded have a hard time accepting that it might not have been all their own drive and ambition and actions that account for where they ended up, because to be consistent with their view of themselves that might lead them to give some of their good fortune to others, and there's a lot of mental biases to prevent people from accepting that.

At the same time, many people that aren't succeeding have a hard time accepting that perhaps their own actions have played a large role in why some past opportunities never panned out. In the end, for your personal growth it's best to focus on what you can affect, which is not your birth circumstances and how that might affect you negatively (not to ignore it, but don't let it prevent forward movement). For society, we should look at both.

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by DarylZero on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @07:18AM (#29978010)
LOL the whole point of the "advice" is just to imply that people who aren't rich are all drug-users, high school dropouts, or convicts.
Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by bennysomething on Sunday January 16, 2022 @10:09AM (#29956554)
Except that 80 percent of American millionaires are first generation affluent. Source: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Millionaire-Next-Door-Surprising-Am...
Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by 988747 on Sunday January 16, 2022 @12:15PM (#29957796)
What's their definition of "millionaire"? Thanks to inflation it is now possible to become one just by virtue of having a household of two white collar workers, each making 150k annually, no kids, no cars - after a decade or two you cross 1M USD net worth.

I think it is helpful to define "millionaire" in 1920s dollars ($20M today)

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by lukas099 on Monday January 17, 2022 @08:58AM (#29966577)
It's been a long time since I've read the book, but I remember the average millionaire household they surveyed only having a single income of $70k or something.
Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by caddemon on Sunday January 16, 2022 @11:10AM (#29957118)
It doesn't surprise me that there can be a lot of movement among the lower to upper middle class brackets. I suspect where the unfairness is really apparent is the bottom 20% or so. What are expected adulthood earnings for kids that grow up below the poverty line?
Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by simplestats on Sunday January 16, 2022 @04:50PM (#29960545)
Once you restrict your stats to those that stay in school and don't do drugs, I'd think it is hard to correct for other causes. Like the presence of involved parents.
Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by nickpp on Sunday January 16, 2022 @09:07AM (#29956069)
Actually location is the most important indicative of success in life. So if you were born in the USA you already won such a lottery that it completely dwarfs the rest of influences on your chances of success.

As to rich parents - that can't be an important indicator, just by considering how many more rich people are in the current generation compared to the previous one: who helped them?!

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by DarylZero on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @07:20AM (#29978017)
> how many more rich people are in the current generation compared to the previous one

Fewer isn't it? There is _increasing_ inequality.

Anyway, it's structural, whether the social systems deliver the economic product to a smaller number or larger number of people. It's not down to differences between individuals receiving or not receiving the product.

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by WalterBright on Sunday January 16, 2022 @02:01PM (#29958785)
I am indeed talking about living in a free country, like the USA. Communist societies actively destroy anyone who is successful.
Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by pdimitar on Sunday January 16, 2022 @07:35AM (#29955480)
You do realize you're defending the position of "let's increase your odds from 0.001% to 0.5%", right?

You are kind of citing baseline expectations and not success boosters here.

Additionally, to play basketball for "many, many years", somebody has to pay your bills in the meantime. A luxury that most of the world does not have -- namely you being able to go all-in on your dream. Rent is still due next month.

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by burntoutfire on Sunday January 16, 2022 @08:13AM (#29955723)
Usually, the basketball playing happens when rent is still paid by parents.
Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by pdimitar on Sunday January 16, 2022 @02:57PM (#29959353)
Indeed, and exactly. But the "many, many years" part to me kind of implies that you can be now 30+ and still mainly do basketball and trying to break through. Which is sadly unrealistic if you haven't got a job or parents willing to support you for that long.

I hate to be the grim adult but reality does set in at one point and you have to accept you've missed your (probably generously big) window of opportunity and move on.

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by lampe3 on Sunday January 16, 2022 @06:46AM (#29955198)
You sound like a American entitled boomer.

Just work hard and it will be fine.

Which if you look was never true.

> Get a guitar and start practicing. Every guitar god I've heard of have one thing in common - they played a lot, for many many years, before breaking through.

Sure but they also got talent and were the exception and your view is biased. The ods of becoming a guitar god are very low and of course they are lower if you don't play the guitar but thats not the point. If I would just practice like one of these guitar gods the chance of becoming one is still really really really low.

> Doesn't matter what my personal definition is. I bet you have your own personal definition of a loser. You'll increase your odds of becoming one by doing what they do.

Sure if you compare doing nothing to doing something yeah you don't have to be a genies to understand that doing something is usually better. But just doing something will not bring you closer to success. its like 0.00% chance vs 0.00000001% chance. yeah the later one is bigger but that's it.

More important then going to school is learning More important then not doing drugs is understanding how to eat healthy Not doing crimes is such an odd thing to mention here.

I know your definition of a loser... a kid who does drugs and stops going to school. not that hard to figure that out. But maybe there are reasons why that kid takes drugs. Probably because to start with that from the start and later on we don't have the same play field. Not getting a job because you live on the wrong street is a thing not only in the US just to name one example.

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by WalterBright on Sunday January 16, 2022 @01:59PM (#29958769)
> Just work hard and it will be fine.

I didn't say work hard. Nor did I say it will be fine. I said it IMPROVES THE ODDS OF SUCCESS.

> they also got talent

I don't buy that. When I was younger, I enjoyed competitive ballroom dancing. I was terrible at it, but I kept at it for years, and finally was able to get on the floor in a competition with the good dancers. I'd get complimented on my "talent". What a laugh. Talent is good for about 1%. The other 99% comes from working at it.

> doing something is usually better. But just doing something will not bring you closer to success.

You just contradicted yourself.

> Not doing crimes is such an odd thing to mention here

Considering the number of people in jail who thought it was a good idea, it seems an obvious thing to mention.

Dropping out and doing drugs is a choice. Odds of being a success dim considerably if you take that route.

But it isn't my definition of a loser. If you read my posts consistently, a loser is a person who believes he does not have agency in his life. They drift along, never trying, always making excuses, always blaming bad luck. Their journey through life is predictable.

You can always tell the winners, too. He may be poor, middle class, or wealthy. But he's always excited to face the next day, always has ideas he's working on, always fun to talk to, never dwells on past failures, and most importantly, takes responsibility for his life - the good and the bad.

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by lampe3 on Monday January 17, 2022 @02:52AM (#29964355)
You can always tell the winners?

So scammers like MLM/Gurus/Influencers and the rest are seen als winners.

Still they are what they are scammers.

That single person responsibility thing is nice in theory but breaks really fast in the real world.

Yes it works for people who already had a great start and they can decide.

But that for me is a pretty middle class western world view and has led to were we are now.

If that is good or bad I don't know but could it be better? Sure.

First we need to understand that sometimes things are not in our hands. Sometimes the system is rigged against us (not always). If we then start to make the play field fair for everybody then your theory would work but I don't see this happening in the next 10 years.

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by nickpp on Sunday January 16, 2022 @11:06AM (#29957078)
>Just work hard and it will be fine. Which if you look was never true.

I don't know, but I still think the first strategy beats the hell out of the alternative: "don't do anything and wait for life to pamper you" - because it won't.

Life is a fight and one's attitude, while not the only factor, will go quite far towards determining the outcome. A can-do attitude, optimistic and oriented towards success will often encourage a person to take the necessary steps and gambles.

While a victim mentality, a losing attitude will discourage a person and make it lose the fight before even starting.

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by lampe3 on Monday January 17, 2022 @02:46AM (#29964312)
I mean these sound nice in a book or in a blog post but in real life.

Attitude to fight everybody and be better then everybody can lead to being alone because nobody wants to be your friend or only as long as you have money or other stuff.

Yes some people have victim mentality but again just because someone has a winning attitude does not mean he/she will win.

The odds are bigger of course if you do something but again how much? from 0.001 to 0.002? or 0.05? Just doing stuff is most often not a better advise then doing nothing.

Its more important to do the thing that brings you near to your goal. Which these days is taking hack after life hack. Which usually only benefits the people selling you stuff.

What about the person who has to work 2 jobs? yes they still can learn that 1 hour when they have a break.

But in most of the definitions they would be a looser which they are not.

Sometimes it is the systems fault. Sometimes it is random luck or misfortune.

What has a bigger impact on you being healthy and wealthy then doing hard work?

Your parents being healthy and wealthy.

If you look at studies this is the biggest impact not working hard.

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by TigeriusKirk on Sunday January 16, 2022 @11:21AM (#29957250)
If you put in the work on guitar, your odds of having some kind of success are very high.

The degree of success is often largely beyond your control. Maybe it'll be weekly shows at the local Holiday Inn. Maybe it'll be the cover of Rolling Stone. That part of it doesn't correlate to the amount of effort all that much.

But having any success vs having no success is very largely correlated to the amount of work you put in.

Re:Do success stories cause false beliefs about success? by telxosser on Monday January 17, 2022 @09:08AM (#29966661)
Get a guitar and start practicing is so delusional.

The guitarist Buckethead is a great example. He isn't just great on guitar, he also wears a mask and KFC bucket on his head and is good with nunchucks. The idea "talent" and hard work wins out in the end is just complete bullshit.

Marketing is far far more important. That seems incredibly obvious.

The idea of talent and hard work is some kind of Christian residual value that is still hanging around even though marketing dominates in literally every domain in the modern world.

If you want success you need to find your KFC bucket, mask and nunchucks because most domains can't really be differentiated by the actual task at hand.