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Re:Train burglaries in LA by mngnt on Friday January 14, 2022 @03:38AM (#29931995)
The cause is the same as it always has been: it is easier for some people to get to the desired standard of living by stealing/other crime than by working.

Why crime us going up? Because of higher desired standard (every body needs an iPhone, brand name shoes and hats), more difficulty with earning a wage (largely, difficulty getting a job at all) and decreased difficulty in crime (defunding police, more aesily available opportunities to steal, etc).

For well-off people it is easier to earn their standard by earning money by work than by stealing. Or they have more comfortable ways of stealing than haulig a paltry 10k in av equipment...

I wish i could be an idealist and to believe in a world where every one is happy with what they've got. But that's a utopia. Humans will always crave to have more than each other ad will steal, loot, defraud, do anything to get there.

Lock your trains well.

Re:Train burglaries in LA by buran77 on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:04AM (#29932196)
When risking getting caught stealing is more attractive than working then it's safe to say the working opportunities for those people aren't worth almost anything.

People take the easier option. You choose "lock your trains well" despite knowing the answer will be "crack those locks well" because it was the easy answer. The view is simple. Eventually the train will be a rolling mountain of steel protected by an army. Your fishing lure will cost an arm and a leg because protection costs are up. And the thieves will just be relegated to do slave work (the work that shouldn't exist in those conditions but society was too busy locking the train well to bother protecting its most vulnerable members) or starve because those are the only options on the table.

Re:Train burglaries in LA by thinkingemote on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:30AM (#29932364)
These types of crimes are generally opportunistic. Opportunistic crimes are committed by people who literally don't think of any future, they don't see any risk, only the chance of a reward. Prison is not on their mind. Similar types of crime would be most house burglaries where entrance is easy, pick pocketing and street mugging.

For house burglary the way to deter opportunistic criminals is to harden down the house just a little bit. Lock doors, close windows.

Often drugs is the driving factor. I notice that out of 207 comments in this thread, only 4 including this one mention drugs.

(I used to work in a criminology research office)

Re:Train burglaries in LA by dusted on Friday January 14, 2022 @07:09AM (#29933487)
But think about that, in your average day, how many opportunities did you have to steal or otherwise break the law. I'm guessing, A LOT, and how many did you take advantage of? (I speculate, none, because your standard of living is such that it's not an attractive option to you).
Re:Train burglaries in LA by oefrha on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:15AM (#29932269)
> When risking getting caught stealing is more attractive than working then it's safe to say the working opportunities for those people aren't worth almost anything.

That assumes thieves are rational actors capable of assessing risks at least somewhat accurately. Often times (the vast majority of times, even) they are not.

It's also worth bringing up that certain American subcultures glorify criminals. The criminal lifestyle is seen as glamorous by a large number of people, while honest labor is just dull, whether it pays enough or not.

Re:Train burglaries in LA by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:33AM (#29932386)
<<It's also worth bringing up that certain American subcultures glorify criminals. The criminal lifestyle is seen as glamorous by a large number of people, while honest labor is just dull, whether it pays enough or not.

It probably is not the main driver, but it is hard to discount it as a factor. Another interesting archetype is one man going solo against a corrupt system ( usually guns are involved ). You could reasonably argue that US populace is conditioned for it and then people are all surprised when people actually act out on those early imprints.

Re:Train burglaries in LA by ckolkey on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:28AM (#29932352)
I think this is a fundamental attribution error... You're saying the person _is_ a thief, whereas I would say the person is _committing_ thievery. In the first case, it's the persons nature and no change in incentives would dissuade them. In the second, if you change the incentives so that thievery is less attractive (with its inherent risks) than just working for a good wage, the behavior would vanish.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by oefrha on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:44AM (#29932472)
_People committing thievery_ more often than not aren’t rational actors capable of assessing risks at least somewhat accurately. There, exact same argument with a term you prefer.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by lifeisstillgood on Friday January 14, 2022 @05:14AM (#29932668)
I am reminded of this from acoup.blog

"They are poor, not stupid"

He was commenting on the risk decisions of farmers throughout history. It would be sensible for people to put all their effort into growing surplus of one crop for sale, but then they would be at greater risk of starving under crop failure.

People's choices are affected by their (percevied) risk calculus.

https://acoup.blog/2020/07/24/collections-bread-how-did-they...

Re:Train burglaries in LA by Cymrukicks on Friday January 14, 2022 @05:18AM (#29932683)
Hard disagree. The majority probably >95% of _People committing thievery_ will have assessed the risk to reward before doing it otherwise what would be the point? even if just for momentary excitement. They just have very little to lose if they get caught. The problem is so many people are being pushed out of decent society in terms of rewards for work and wealth increase. you even have people who expect to go to prison at some point in their life simply because of the circumstances for their birth.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by cloverich on Friday January 14, 2022 @10:54AM (#29935962)
Earning a criminal record has an extremely high cost even if you are poor. Actually, especially if you are poor.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by NeverFade on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:24AM (#29932322)
> When risking getting caught stealing is more attractive than working then it's safe to say the working opportunities for those people aren't worth almost anything.

Except when these thefts are de-facto decriminalized in Califronia, and police is either defunded or directed not to fight these crimes, the "risk of getting caught" is effectively zero.

That means that unless you start handing out iPhones for free in local malls, the thefts will continue.

Let's stop pretending these thieves are "starving". Starving people don't pull up to a Gucci or Louis Vuitton in a Porsche and casually steal a luxury handbag for their girlfriend.

If all work is slavery to you, how about the people who produced all these iPhones and LV bags?

We're dealing here with people who are happy to steal the products of other people's work, instead of doing any work themselves.

Re:Train burglaries in LA by drewwwwww on Friday January 14, 2022 @05:18AM (#29932682)
there has been no meaningful defunding of police in any major metropolitan area in california and no directive to not pursue property crime. police have not pursued property crime for decades. you are regurgitating authoritarian propaganda with no evidence.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by NeverFade on Saturday January 15, 2022 @08:40AM (#29946252)
California passed a proposition that theft of property under $950 will not be prosecuted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_California_Proposition_47

That means criminals engaging in such thefts cannot be legally arrested or prosecuted.

And we haven't even started discussing LA's new DA Gascon's aggressive move to decriminalize a very large set of offenses:

https://abc7.com/george-gascon-los-angeles-district-attorney...

Re:Train burglaries in LA by ErikCorry on Friday January 14, 2022 @06:13AM (#29933065)
> no directive to not pursue property crime. police have not pursued property crime for decades

If there's no directive, why is property crime not pursued?

Re:Train burglaries in LA by lovich on Friday January 14, 2022 @02:51PM (#29939423)
Because it’s work and the cops are lazy? No one’s on their ass to go after it either unless it happens to someone with money or connections.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by NeverFade on Saturday January 15, 2022 @08:43AM (#29946273)
California passed a a proposition that theft of property under $950 will not be prosecuted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_California_Proposition_47

No matter how diligent cops are, they cannot do anything about these crimes within the law. Passing such Propositions then blaming cops for rising crime is sinister.

Re:Train burglaries in LA by lovich on Sunday January 16, 2022 @12:40AM (#29953727)
From this article

> It recategorized some nonviolent offenses as misdemeanors, rather than felonies, as they had previously been categorized.

It’s still a crime. Police’s job is to respond to crime. Can you imagine if you were tasked with a job and then just stopped doing it because your thought your boss needed to take it more seriously? Any place I worked you’d get fired.

Especially if you started lying to everyone that your boss made it a rule that the problem can’t be dealt with when in reality you just think the consequences aren’t high enough

> No matter how diligent cops are, they cannot do anything about these crimes within the law

They could patrol the streets and respond to the crime. The court system and prosecutors office decides if it needs to escalate from there. This is the LAPD however so they’re probably too busy forming gangs and engaging in crime themselves

Re:Train burglaries in LA by drewwwwww on Friday January 14, 2022 @06:10PM (#29941781)
a century of propaganda has led everyone to think that the police spend a lot of effort 'solving' crimes, but a cursory look at clearance statistics will reveal otherwise.

to the extent that police are an effective anti-crime tool, it primarily stems from their physical presence (racially profiled harassment) as a deterrent. outside of homicides & some PR-useful drug enforcement, police departments spend most of their time discouraging people from filing police reports after actual crimes, harassing poor people, and meeting traffic citation quotas

Re:Train burglaries in LA by nswest23 on Friday January 14, 2022 @12:38PM (#29937409)
did you see the amount of packages that had been opened and littered all over?? I'd say that the risk of getting caught there was extremely low and that desperation had little to do with it and it was more opportunistic.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by jl6 on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:14AM (#29932251)
> Why crime us going up?

It’s not. The long term trend in property crime in the US is down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

Re:Train burglaries in LA by nomel on Friday January 14, 2022 @09:42AM (#29934993)
Much has been decriminalized in California, so I question if these types of statistics can be accurate.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by jl6 on Friday January 14, 2022 @02:08PM (#29938809)
Theft has been decriminalized in California?
Re:Train burglaries in LA by CamperBob2 on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:30AM (#29932359)
Difficulty: people may not even bother reporting minor property crimes anymore, because the police (and, more important, the prosecutors) DGAF.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by smcl on Friday January 14, 2022 @05:17AM (#29932679)
You might not realise it but you've recreated a famous bit from the news satire "Brass Eye" - a news presenter shows some crime statistics and follows it up with the words "So much for recorded crimes, but crimes we know nothing about are going up as well" and displays this graphic:

https://twitter.com/dannyjeremiah/status/472109093260648450

Re:Train burglaries in LA by ggreer on Friday January 14, 2022 @03:00PM (#29939548)
That article hasn't been updated for the massive increase in crime from the past two years.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by truckerbill on Friday January 14, 2022 @03:43AM (#29932041)
Crime rates go up when inequality goes up.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by iamben on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:50AM (#29932499)
Was discussing this with some friends recently. The general agreement was social media has exacerbated inequality. It was always there to a varying degree - but there's a big difference between seeing a movie star or musician flexing expensive clothes and shoes on MTV or in a magazine to seeing Johnny Average who went to your school flexing them on Instagram. One is attainable and "why don't I have this", the other you don't worry about.

Furthermore we seem to have such an easy money culture right now - if you get caught in a crypto or NFT or memestock or whatever bubble on FB or Twitter, 'everyone' is rich with no effort (and they can teach you how for 99$ a month!) - why shouldn't you be rich without working?!

Re:Train burglaries in LA by ramoz on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:54AM (#29932531)
Do crime rates go up when you stop policing actual crimes?
Re:Train burglaries in LA by callmeal on Friday January 14, 2022 @06:38AM (#29933232)
> Do crime rates go up when you stop policing actual crimes?

No they don't. See all the studies that disprove the "broken windows theory" that tried to prove that crime rates go down when you enforce policing.

https://carder.uk/threads/does-broken-windows-theory-work.11...

    The first book to disprove the broken window theory was Bernard Harcourt 's Illusion of Order, published in 2001. The author points out that over the 30 years of the existence of this theory, it has never been empirically confirmed, on the contrary, the available research contradicts it. The theory also relies on arbitrarily defined categories of "order" and "disorder", "law-abiding citizens" and "violators."
    
    The first book to disprove the broken window theory was Bernard Harcourt 's Illusion of Order, published in 2001. The author points out that over the 30 years of the existence of this theory, it has never been empirically confirmed, on the contrary, the available research contradicts it. The theory also relies on arbitrarily defined categories of "order" and "disorder", "law-abiding citizens" and "violators."

    First of all, the drop in crime in New York occurred simultaneously with the corresponding process in the entire United States. In another study, Harcourt notes that the drop in crime rates in New York coincided with the end of the crack drug epidemic. Christina Sterbenz adds that this trend has been fueled by declining unemployment (during the 1990s, its rate fell by 40%).

    Criminologist Ralph Taylor is sure that socio-economic is a significant factor that affects the crime rate. Returning to the experiment with two cars - in the Bronx initially there was a low level of welfare, and in wealthy Palo Alto, a researcher must intervene in the experiment to provoke vandalism.

    The theory of broken windows has also failed to pass the test of a massive social experiment. In 1994, the US government introduced the Moving to Opportunity program, which relocated 4,800 impoverished families to prime locations. The program was implemented in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Boston and Baltimore. Three quarters of the resettled households were on the brink of poverty, and two thirds of the participants were African American.

    According to the theory, in the new environment the level of their involvement in offenses should have, but this did not happen, since the move did not improve their financial situation, but emphasized the social gap with their neighbors.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by nomel on Friday January 14, 2022 @10:04AM (#29935294)
I think the opposite of this (reducing enforcement should not increase crime) has been proven false by Californias Prop 47 [1]. So, I imagine the starting point, where enforcement is then increased, is very important.

1. https://www.ppic.org/publication/the-impact-of-proposition-4...

Re:Train burglaries in LA by KSteffensen on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:27AM (#29932341)
Is crime rate proportional to inequality or poverty?
Re:Train burglaries in LA by hnaccount_rng on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:52AM (#29932518)
Since poverty is (at least typically) defined relative to some average those two things are not as disconnected as you may think.

But in general I'd expect crime to be a "least worst option" choice and I seem to remember research to that effect. Although I wouldn't be able to find that now again, so take it with an appropriate amount of salt.

Re:Train burglaries in LA by user-the-name on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:48AM (#29932489)
Inequality implies poverty, so this question is pointless.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by nitrogen on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:59AM (#29932570)
No, they are orthogonal. A society split between middle class workers and billionaires still has inequality without poverty. A society of 100% poverty has no inequality.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by jan_Inkepa on Friday January 14, 2022 @05:16AM (#29932675)
Some people define poverty as being in the lower X percentile of wealth.

> https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn07...

"Two commonly used measures are: people in relative low income – living in households with income below 60% of the median in that year; people in absolute low income – living in households with income below 60% of (inflation-adjusted) median income in some base year, usually 2010/11."

This is however a bureaucratic definition of poverty that I don't accept as capturing the everyday meaning, but I thought it might be of interest to mention. I remember being under the poverty line and thinking "this doesn't count. I don't accept that I'm living in poverty." Knowing these technical uses made me regard official-sounding news and reports about 'poverty' quite differently.

(The bottom of the article talks about a group giving a more lay-compatible definition "The Social Metrics Commission (SMC) proposed a new based on the extent to which someone’s resources meet their needs. This accounts for differences among households such as costs of childcare and disability, savings and access to assets." which seems more meaningful if you're interested about absolute standards of living).

Re:Train burglaries in LA by cloverich on Friday January 14, 2022 @11:01AM (#29936074)
That's good to know. I had similar feelings about wealth. At one point my wife and I were in the bottom 10% or lower, because of our student debt. Yeah when we graduated medical and dental school we had pretty negative net worth. But... does it really make sense to claim we had no wealth? Or that someone who made 20k a year with no debt should trade places with us? I think wealth and inequality studies are important, and if they don't address this issue they are misleading, even meaningless statistics.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by user-the-name on Friday January 14, 2022 @03:52PM (#29940265)
But that does not actually happen. In practice, inequality means poverty.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by orwin on Friday January 14, 2022 @05:26AM (#29932731)
Unless poverty is relative.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by bildung on Friday January 14, 2022 @05:10AM (#29932639)
No, it's actually only the inequality, not poverty, that correlates with high crime rates.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by meltedcapacitor on Friday January 14, 2022 @06:22AM (#29933117)
"Humans" don't do this in Zurich or Tokyo but do it in Haiti and downtown LA. Could it be that context matters?
Re:Train burglaries in LA by roenxi on Friday January 14, 2022 @05:10AM (#29932643)
That is basically a longform way of saying "people will steal if their personal economics makes stealing rational". While extremely true it doesn't give a toehold into the problem to decide what to do next.

The question here is really what specific policies and cultural forces are shaping the economic realities that these people are living in. If nothing else, we should ask why someone isn't having great success hiring a few thick-knuckled train robbers away from their life of crime and running a very profitable security business.

Re:Train burglaries in LA by mtsr on Friday January 14, 2022 @03:52AM (#29932095)
> Humans will always crave to have more than each other ad will steal, loot, defraud, do anything to get there.

Yes and currently society has many many ways for the privileged to get even more than others than they already have, in ways that are legally accepted even if they’re morally reprehensible. And as long as we don’t change that and make the playing field more even, I don’t think judging petty theft so harshly makes any sense at all.

Re:Train burglaries in LA by sharikous on Friday January 14, 2022 @05:00AM (#29932574)
When you don't judge theft harshly you actually promote a culture of dishonesty.

It is the cruelest and vilest thing to do to those poor people who actually don't steal.

Re:Train burglaries in LA by callmeal on Friday January 14, 2022 @06:40AM (#29933246)
> When you don't judge theft harshly you actually promote a culture of dishonesty.

Yup. I wish we would start doing that.

https://inthesetimes.com/article/walmart-corporations-wage-t...

   A scathing new report finds that hundreds of major corporations in the United States are repeat wage-theft offenders — committing the violations and then paying the subsequent fines as part of the cost of doing business.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by refurb on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:50AM (#29932495)
Lazy argument.

Working is always superior to stealing. Your words might try and cast them as morally equivalent, but they arent.

Re:Train burglaries in LA by bildung on Friday January 14, 2022 @05:09AM (#29932629)
It's pretty well-established empirically, over long periods and multiple countries, that this is mostly about income inequality. Not about overall wealth, not about new gadgets. Want to reduce theft and (juvenile) violent crime? Than reduce income inequality.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by savolai on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:07AM (#29932211)
I've seen how tricky participating in society with a cheap android phone can get. Your memory runs out all the time when you try to have apps critical for everyday life, and your privacy is sold to highest bidder. Everything takes more time and is less reliable.

Until we as a society can honestly look at what reasonable amount of well being in information societies looks like, it's tricky to tell those with less what is reasonable to expect of quality of life.

Yes, mimetic desire is a real power too. Is that really what's at play here?

Who has the right to draw the line between basic well being and an utopia?

Re:Train burglaries in LA by DocTomoe on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:30AM (#29932369)
I've been using cheap (~150 Euros) chinese Android phones for years now. I have not experienced memory running out (my current one has some 256 GB, I think), and privacy selling is a problem caused by apps, not by the hardware - you'd be surprised the amount of info your average iOS app sells.

This Android vs. iOS thing is not about technical capabilities, it's about elitism - and elitism always breeds jealousy, and thus thievery. Lao Tse knew this in 500 BC: "By not prizing goods hard to get, you will cause the people to cease from robbing and stealing."

Re:Train burglaries in LA by savolai on Friday January 14, 2022 @09:56AM (#29935177)
As a long time user of both, it seems to me there's a fair amount of elitism on android side too - it's just more branded towards technocratic ableism. I.e. "I can use a device that's difficult to use, so I have competence".

Used iphones are verifiable to be reliable, so there is a good aftermarket for them, as opposed to Android phones. At that point the elitism argument falls conpletely apart.

Re:Train burglaries in LA by savolai on Friday January 14, 2022 @11:28AM (#29936515)
Actually, I'll take some of this back. I don't really want to label either one as elitism. Human identity bulding is a natural mechanism.

The point I want to make is that it can and will happen related to phones regardless of the brand. Some people are proud of actual propertiea of the product, others will focus more on the image or ideological aspects.

There's nothing wrong with this as such: humans are good at attaching their identities/personalities to all kinds of external things. This tendency also drives healthy psychological growth and learning when it's in check.

Re:Train burglaries in LA by donkeybeer on Friday January 14, 2022 @05:06AM (#29932614)
The poor most probably aren't using 150 euro phones, and he probably meant RAM more so than storage.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by DocTomoe on Friday January 14, 2022 @06:04AM (#29933011)
Well, that's the lower end for smartphones these days, and the one I am using has 4GiB of RAM, the same amount the iPhone 13 has. Again, this is not about technical specifications, it's about faux elitism and the problems that come with it.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by saagarjha on Friday January 14, 2022 @06:46AM (#29933291)
Comparing RAM on Android and iOS devices is not going to give you any reasonable insight into how well the device runs.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by dusted on Friday January 14, 2022 @07:07AM (#29933471)
I'm pretty sure most people would prefer a standard of living where they don't need to steal.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by mysecretaccount on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:11AM (#29932236)
> defunding police

Police budgets are, by and large, still increasing in the US.

Re:Train burglaries in LA by ramoz on Friday January 14, 2022 @04:57AM (#29932559)
Faced with massive demonstrations over the murder of George Floyd, the Los Angeles City Council took a dramatic and symbolic step last year, cutting $150 million from the Police Department’s budget and promising to put that money into other social services.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by mysecretaccount on Friday January 14, 2022 @01:44PM (#29938383)
As another commenter pointed out, this is not accurate.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by yakz on Friday January 14, 2022 @06:49AM (#29933317)
Are you saying that the LAPD budget isn’t increasing?
Re:Train burglaries in LA by yakz on Friday January 14, 2022 @07:31AM (#29933677)
From looking at the budgets from 2014[1], it's increasing. Also the "$150 million" cut figure is the difference between the council approved budget and the mayor's proposed budget, not the difference from the previous year.

In billions of dollars:

2014-2015: $1.338

2015-2016: $1.438

2016-2017: $1.485

2017-2018: $1.578

2018-2019: $1.609

2019-2020: $1.733

2020-2021: $1.721

2021-2022: $1.760

The city also took on $47 million in overtime debt in the year that the budget was cut [2]

[1] https://lacontroller.org/budgets/ [2] https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/la-cut-the-police-budget...

Re:Train burglaries in LA by Rizz on Friday January 14, 2022 @06:35PM (#29941957)
Is it crime or is protest? We all know Amazon will let its workers die in hurricanes, harass its workers until they commit suicide, not pay their workers a living wage, and all this while the big boss goes flying around in spaceships for fun. I'm sure a lot of the "criminals" rationalize their behavior by knowing that whatever they do it can't ever be as bad as what Amazon does, they're even doing justice by fighting back when no-one else does. I'm sure this is more about being Robin Hood than people being evil to their core.
Re:Train burglaries in LA by teekert on Friday January 14, 2022 @11:06AM (#29936150)
"The cause is the same as it always has been: it is easier for some people to get to the desired standard of living by stealing/other crime than by working."

This is based on the (imho) wrong assumption that people prefer stealing over working when it's easier. But this is not true, people prefer to work but they need to live and their children need to live. You should remove the necessity to steal by building a social infrastructure that helps struggling people.

The case for this is nicely details in "Human Kind" by Rutger Bregman [0].

[0]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52879286-humankind