News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by sylens on Saturday January 08, 2022 @06:22PM (#29857708)
I don't fault any schools for struggling from March 2020 to June 2020, being thrown into the pandemic and remote learning with no warning. But I was absolutely astonished to see that most administrators took the summer of 2020 off, assuming that everybody would be back in school that fall and things would be normal. They wasted several months of time that could've been spent planning contingencies and how remote learning might work better than just pure zoom.

I always thought that schools should have considered something I saw done at a SANS training course once. While there were ~20 people in attendance, there were also several people attending virtually. Those virtual attendees had a surrogate in the room, whose job was to monitor chat/messages from the virtual attendees and raise his hand to ask a question to the instructor - as if they were there in person. This allowed the instructor to teach the course as he normally would, using a full projection screen, white board, and other materials.

This surrogate method would have allowed teachers to be in their classrooms drawing on blackboards, using charts, posters, and other instructional aids they've spent years building, instead of having to pivot completely to PowerPoint. It's a shame to see absolutely no creativity or thinking outside the box among school administrators.

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by another_story on Saturday January 08, 2022 @06:40PM (#29857886)
Where are you going to get a few million surrogates? A lot of solutions shared here fail to realize that the majority of US public school teachers are routinely spending their own money on basic classroom supplies.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by rayiner on Sunday January 09, 2022 @08:38AM (#29863081)
Just. Stop. You’re hurting kids by spreading the myth that school funding is the problem, because it allows the real problems to continue festering. US public schools are among some of the best funded in the world: https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/15434/the-countries-spend...

Plus, schools have tons of unused covid relief money: https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/05/politics/school-federal-covid...

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by xyzzyz on Sunday January 09, 2022 @11:25AM (#29864653)
New York City spends close to $30k per public school student. They should be able to afford anything with this kind of spending.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by tptacek on Sunday January 09, 2022 @01:07PM (#29865779)
I'm inclined to believe this. I was in a discussion about this yesterday with friends and a clear statistic would have helped. But the chart you've got there --- I know it's not the fulcrum of your whole argument, I'm not sniping --- doesn't really make the case you make in your comment. It says that we spend 0.1% more than the OECD average on primary/secondary schools, but are boosted in the overall rankings by spending way more than any other country on tertiary schools (unsurprising).
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by rayiner on Sunday January 09, 2022 @10:31PM (#29870269)
I usually take the G7 as the benchmark—what oil emirates like Norway or banking havens like Switzerland spend aren’t a relevant comparison to a big diversified economy like the US. We spend a bigger percentage of our economy on K-12 than all but one other G7 country. And since our GDP per capita is so high, that share of GDP represents 20%+ more purchasing power than other G7 countries. That should be more than enough. We need to stop acting like money is the problem in education.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by wolf550e on Monday January 10, 2022 @05:42AM (#29872849)
Isn't money spent on education mostly teachers' salaries? So high GDP per capita just makes education more expensive, not less expensive. If education spending was mostly electronics, then higher GDP per capita would have been good for education.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by UnknownUser1234 on Sunday January 09, 2022 @02:48PM (#29866712)
My wife is a teacher. We spend our own money every year.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by robbedpeter on Sunday January 09, 2022 @05:23PM (#29867927)
Maybe you should stop. Let the system fail enough such that the pain that you're preventing will start to affect the people who can actually fix things. If you can't fix it, let the wheel squeak. You're not the parent or savior of those children, so don't allow your high levels of empathy and life choices to be exploited by bureacrats. They know exactly which buttons to push and how to manipulate the type of people teachers are.

Stop playing the game where you spend money to cover up incompetence or corruption. Don't be a reliable patsy. Some problems only get better if you force the ones responsible to fix it.

Use a classroom to audit their own supplies and needs, and see where money intended for education actually goes. The information should ask be public.

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by josephcsible on Sunday January 09, 2022 @05:30PM (#29867982)
The problem is that people who can actually fix things generally send their kids to private schools.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by robbedpeter on Sunday January 09, 2022 @06:15PM (#29868450)
Then solve that problem, and stop subsidizing incompetence and corruption.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by rayiner on Sunday January 09, 2022 @10:35PM (#29870285)
On what? Do you buy textbooks with them?

American teachers spend a lot of time, as my Asian mom would always complain, on “arts and crafts.” The volume of construction paper and pipe cleaners and other junk my kids bring home is truly astonishing.

These expenses are symptomatic of curricular problems—and the solution isn’t to allocate more money for craft supplies. It doesn’t cost that much to have kids drill their times tables.

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by s1artibartfast on Monday January 10, 2022 @12:30AM (#29871001)
Many teachers spend their money essentially replacing the role of 1) parents and 2) administrators.

I know a lot of teachers spending money on hygiene products:tampons, deodorant ect, because it is distracting if students are bleeding at their desks and smell like garbage.

2) they also spend money on basic supplies, pens pencils, as well as heaters and coolers for the room because the administration blew the funds on some bs like a marble facade for the school

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by yes_really on Monday January 10, 2022 @01:11AM (#29871243)
Although I sympathize with the student's issues, it is not taxpayer's fault that these issues occur.

For (1) the government already gives housing assistance, food stamps and a bunch of other welfare programs, so the parents can easily afford basic hygiene products and they should be paying for it, not the school.

For (2) it is the administration's malice or incompetence that is burning away the money. We shouldn't increase the budget even more, we should hold the administration and the parents accountable.

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by s1artibartfast on Monday January 10, 2022 @11:05AM (#29876876)
I don't disagree, but this is the situation teachers are in. The parents should be buying the hygiene products, but aren't so teachers are trying to fill the gaps. It is a inefficient solution to a problem that should be addressed by someone else, but they are the ones that have to deal with it in order to do their regular job.
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Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by yes_really on Monday January 10, 2022 @01:22AM (#29871290)
The comment you are replying to didn't even touch on "what are the appropriate ages to learn multiplication".

That level of discussion is really astonishingly low. You respond to something the parent comment didn't even touch on, and half of your comment is offenses to the parent commenter.

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by alar44 on Monday January 10, 2022 @11:33PM (#29887579)
Yes it did. He thinks they make too much arts and crafts and they should do more times tables.

Maybe he should study child psychology and become a teacher. (As if this stuff isn't studied extensively)

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by random314 on Monday January 10, 2022 @04:45AM (#29872454)
You missed this "Teachers generally spend their own money on the basics. Pencils, pens, paper, deodorant, tampons, etc."
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by another_story on Sunday January 09, 2022 @05:03PM (#29867774)
Sure schools are well funded in comparison to others. Doesn't mean most teachers aren't routinely spending their own money on supplies. The “Just. Stop.” attitude from anyone who hasn't spent time in the US public school system, and just looks at the numbers doesn't address this. The US is rapidly losing experienced teachers, something which has only accelerated in the last two years.

https://www.epi.org/publication/u-s-schools-struggle-to-hire...

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by eadmund on Saturday January 08, 2022 @08:38PM (#29858897)
'Since March 2020, the federal government has provided $190 billion in pandemic aid to schools …'[0]

'There are 130,930 public and private K-12 schools in the U.S.'[1]

$190 billion divided by 130,930 is $1.45 million dollars per school. Now, I will readily grant that a million dollars just ain't what it used to be, but it is, even in 2021, still a heck of a lot of money, and it sure sounds from the raw numbers that public school teachers shouldn't need to spend their own money on basic COVID-19 supplies.

0: https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/look-up-how-much-covi...

1: https://www.edweek.org/leadership/education-statistics-facts...

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by cipheredStones on Saturday January 08, 2022 @09:08PM (#29859124)
There's around 50M K-12 students in public schools. That's roughly $4k per student over the course of about 18 months, at the time the article was written. Subtract six months for summers, if you like; that's still ~360 days, for about $11/student/day. It's not nothing, but a single rapid test costs more than that.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by detaro on Sunday January 09, 2022 @11:54AM (#29864985)
> but a single rapid test costs more than that.

Still find the difference in that so weird. rapid tests are a 2-3 € supermarket item here, if you'd be buying in bulk for a school system they'd be cheaper. And at least some schools/day cares have been doing pool testing.

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by cipheredStones on Sunday January 09, 2022 @03:25PM (#29866992)
Yes, I believe the main difference comes down to the US FDA (Food and Drug Administration) being slow and hidebound about approving rapid tests, with the result that the few manufacturers who got through the whole arduous approval process have been able to reap near-monopoly profits.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by rayiner on Sunday January 09, 2022 @08:41AM (#29863094)
You don’t need to rapid test every student every day for a year! $4,000 per kid is a ton of money for PPE, remote learning supplies, test kits, ventilation, etc. The money has mostly been set on fire.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by rdtwo on Sunday January 09, 2022 @09:51AM (#29863685)
Yep and now it’s gone. Schools are notoriously wasteful when it comes to large sums of money. Almost none of the allocations go to high ROI Items like hiring teachers or buying basic school supplies. Schools love buying tech though because it’s always a black hole for capital spending
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by pempem on Sunday January 09, 2022 @12:02PM (#29865088)
At least in LA, its not the schools. Its, as an earlier poster said, administration. The mental association of "school" is usually a group of teachers and maybe a principal.

In multiple cities, political leadership at the mayoral level has been shown to be getting kickbacks and other favorable terms from our dear beloved employers to adopt that technology. In LAUSD it was Villaragosa and Apple.

When we say the money is "wasted", it's because there is corruption at levels higher than any individual school. Usually.

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by rdtwo on Sunday January 09, 2022 @01:58PM (#29866242)
Yeah I think that’s true the corruption is either dictated down as in you must buy apple products or you get nothing. Happens at a district level where for example they they hire a consulting firm and pay millions of dollars
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by bushbaba on Saturday January 08, 2022 @09:48PM (#29859442)
Rapid testing every student wouldn’t be necessary to open the schools.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by dude187 on Sunday January 09, 2022 @03:45AM (#29861540)
The continual testing and quarantining of healthy students and staff is what keeps schools from being able to reliably stay open.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by bushbaba on Sunday January 09, 2022 @11:54AM (#29864990)
Rapid test will test negative when someone is already contagious.

It won’t be an effective means of stopping spread. Instead give out surgical masks or n95 to all kids. Cloth masks allow 90%+ of the virus to enter/leave. Add hepa filters. Add space heaters and leave the windows open. Maybe teach outside in parklet if possible.

That’ll be more effective at preventing spread.

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by sharikous on Sunday January 09, 2022 @11:52AM (#29864972)
I am probably being a smartass but if the purpose is to check whether there is at least one positive student (no matter who) you can do so with one single collective test a day.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by LodeOfCode on Saturday January 08, 2022 @09:06PM (#29859102)
>shouldn't need to spend their own money on basic COVID-19 supplies

Not covid supplies, school supplies pre-covid (which they also shouldn't have needed to, but did need to nevertheless).

And hiring enough surrogates would eat up a huge chunk of that $1.45 million, given that you'd need, what, ~10 per school for nearly 2 years now? Actually, that's more doable than I expected.

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by jakeinspace on Saturday January 08, 2022 @07:21PM (#29858281)
I assumed they meant having other kids be surrogates, so representing both themselves as well as another student. Could work in the right environment I suppose, but US public school culture is a million miles from that of Japan.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by redisman on Saturday January 08, 2022 @09:28PM (#29859285)
This just seems like a very naive idea in a very confident HN manner. Have you met teenagers?
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by jakeinspace on Saturday January 08, 2022 @10:02PM (#29859537)
That's what I meant by the right environment. I don't think it'd work well for the typical American public school.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by alach11 on Saturday January 08, 2022 @08:01PM (#29858593)
Double up classes. You could have a 60 person class taught by one teacher, with the other acting as support.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by germinalphrase on Saturday January 08, 2022 @08:06PM (#29858645)
I am a high school English teacher. I currently teach six sections of 30-35 students. I already spend my nights and weekends lesson planning/assessing writing, and you want to double my student load? Fuck off. I’d quit tomorrow.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by LodeOfCode on Saturday January 08, 2022 @08:17PM (#29858735)
The grading (and lesson planning/assignment & test writing, though those scale anyway) would be split between the teacher giving the lesson and the one acting as a surrogate, so they'd basically still have the same load each.

Edit: probably on an alternating assignments basis rather than a "half the students' papers for you, half for me" basis, for grading consistency/fairness reasons

Edit2: Actually, for feedback-latency reasons it's probably better to split grading the other way. I wonder whether it's better to split each assignment randomly, or grade as two separate classes with shared lectures.

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by jagger27 on Saturday January 08, 2022 @08:44PM (#29858937)
For tests and exams it’s common for teaching assistants to mark the same few questions on every test, usually on the same page. It helps catch cheating and plagiarism and keeps grading consistent.

When I was a TA we’d split the stack of paper tests evenly and rotate them every few days to grade them in parallel. It’s even easier to do the splitting if tests are submitted online.

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by LodeOfCode on Saturday January 08, 2022 @10:10PM (#29859589)
Oh, yeah! My profs'd also post the list of which TA did each (sub-)question, so that if we had questions about why we lost marks we knew who direct them to (although all grading disputes had to go to the prof, to disincentivise people from arguing with the TAs)

And with two teachers, you'd also be able to have each write half the questions, and split the grading that way.

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by xrd on Sunday January 09, 2022 @01:27AM (#29860825)
My brother is a teacher, his class sizes have increased by 30% this year. He's exhausted and was long before COVID surged. It is not an easy job.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by Lofty1971 on Sunday January 09, 2022 @11:45AM (#29864878)
I assume this could be done with one surrogate per teacher rather than per student and would be almost as effective.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by another_story on Sunday January 09, 2022 @05:06PM (#29867802)
That was my assumption, one per teacher.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by hidudeurcool on Saturday January 08, 2022 @09:15PM (#29859181)
home/community school. public schools are a death trap
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by accountofme on Sunday January 09, 2022 @12:38AM (#29860539)
I'll be honest, I do not expect creativity or outside the box thinking from administrators. Maybe this is the audience here but they are not creatives, they are bureaucrats -- think bogons from hitchhikers guide to the galaxy and you are on the right track.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by lumost on Sunday January 09, 2022 @01:05AM (#29860701)
I think we can demand more of our bureaucrats, if all we expect are Bogons - all we'll get are Bogons. Increasingly, the only thing US administrators can do is spend more money on problems without delivering any improved results. This pattern is common across Academia, Private, and Public institutions.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by damiankennedy on Sunday January 09, 2022 @06:00AM (#29862206)
I think its Vogons :-) and they do write poetry even if its the 2nd worst poetry in the galaxy.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by accountofme on Friday January 14, 2022 @07:33PM (#29942380)
You are exactly correct :)
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by LodeOfCode on Saturday January 08, 2022 @08:06PM (#29858648)
>whose job was to monitor chat/messages from the virtual attendees and raise his hand to ask a question to the instructor

Seems like a human solution to a (mostly) technical problem. Basically you just need a way for students to mark a message as hand-raising (and maybe a way to point out another student's message), a chat filter for the teacher to read those messages, and a USB LED (or some such) to act as a raised hand until the messages are marked as read. Of course there are some edge cases, like temporarily ignoring a child who's repeatedly raising their hand to troll, but this still seems like it could've easily been usable by the start of fall 2020.

You'd likely still need a surrogate for young children and special ed students, but you could probably eliminate ~2/3rds of them (? I'm not sure how old children need to be before they can be expected to remember they need to mark their messages & how to do so)

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by sylens on Saturday January 08, 2022 @08:37PM (#29858886)
The idea is that the teacher doesn't have to keep their eyes on a laptop screen and can mostly move about the classroom in the normal way that they would teach a lesson.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by LodeOfCode on Saturday January 08, 2022 @09:34PM (#29859341)
With the LED they'd only need to go look at the screen when there's a question. Actually, if you put the laptop in the middle of the front row, set the font size large, and used a clicker to go through them, the teacher could probably read the questions from anywhere at the front of the class. It'd still be an issue if you wanted to move about the back of the class while giving a lesson; but that's a hassle anyway, since the students' desks face the front, so IME it's rarely done.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by marcind on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @01:11PM (#29895270)
I'd like to offer an alternative to the surrogate method... Many of the folks on our team have kids and, like so many people worldwide, were greatly disappointed by what happened in early 2020. We watched our kids suffer as this normally human-rich interaction was replaced with powerpoints and tiny talking heads. We decided to offer a solution of our own.

Our team developed https://sharetheboard.com - an app which digitizes handwritten content in real time. The practical application here is that any analog surface/content can be shared simultaneously online, in real time.

For teachers this is valuable for a number of reasons (direct feedback from educators): - it allows them to teach "as they always have" - standing in front of a board or writing on a notebook, etc. - they don't have to learn anything new - they don't have to buy new equipment - they can simultaneously address in-person and remote students (again, without "doing anything new") - they can work (in the same way) from home, when needed

You'll note that many of the above points are of interest to school administrators as well. - No hardware + no learning curve = high adoption. - Mobile/scalable = fast deployment. - Low cost = well, low cost.

For students (direct feedback from students): - the biggest plus is that this is as close to "like in class" as it gets: they get to see their teacher's natural body language, maintain eye contact, see the explanations evolve on a familiar medium (whiteboard, chalkboard, etc.) - they can do more than ask questions: the app facilitates direct interaction with digitized content - they can focus on the lesson: the app allows you to easily save board contents any time

What was meant to be a quick response to a problem is beginning to turn into an actual product. For better or for worse, some form of remote interaction seems to be in the cards (not only in education) for quite some time. Our goal is to help make it a more real/physical experience, despite being shared remotely. Interested in feedback from teachers, parents, and students on this thread.

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by labster on Saturday January 08, 2022 @07:31PM (#29858382)
Everyone in June 2020 was too busy assuming the best case scenario to plan for disruption. I never really understood the human capacity for self-delusion until 2020. I knew we’d have two years of lockdowns in February 2020, unless we lucked into a drug that treated it (despite not having a drug for SARS-CoV-1). Even the logistics for distributing a vaccine is hard, and takes months to set up. I have no idea how people can ignore evidence they dislike so easily.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by yarky on Saturday January 08, 2022 @09:11PM (#29859146)
> I have no idea how people can ignore evidence they dislike so easily.

Isn’t this the natural response to the unknown? Denial? I guess not everyone likes Bayes’ theorem!

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by LodeOfCode on Saturday January 08, 2022 @10:16PM (#29859619)
Even with Bayes' theorem, if your prior is zero, you can ignore any evidence - no matter how strong - that doesn't absolutely require the hypothesis to be true.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by yarky on Saturday January 08, 2022 @11:59PM (#29860318)
That’s why they say Bayesians can’t be atheists by definition. At least that’s how all atheists in my stats 101 class starting calling themselves agnostic. Another way to put it I learnt in a finance class : financial models behave alright, the problem comes from our lack of imagination, i.e. assigning a null probability to a future event :/
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by astrange on Sunday January 09, 2022 @02:33AM (#29861130)
Bayesians are atheists, they just happen to believe in Roko's Basilisk, which obviously is nothing like a reinvention of the devil. Remember not to think of it since we can't prove it won't torture an infinite number of clones of you forever!
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by labster on Sunday January 09, 2022 @03:31AM (#29861458)
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Roko%27s_basilisk

There, I just sent another 50 souls to rationalist hell.

Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by rdtwo on Sunday January 09, 2022 @09:53AM (#29863709)
That’s just how American administrators work. The same thing happens at my company.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by Gibbon1 on Saturday January 08, 2022 @07:25PM (#29858318)
The other thing is the FDA intentionally delayed approving vaccines for 5-11 year olds till well after the school year start. At the same time the CDC was pushing hopium that vaccines alone would solve the problem. Trying to dangle normalcy in front of people to entice the nimrods to get vaxed. Same time conservative political leaders are using the issue as a political football.
Re:I am a New York City public high school student. The situ... by astrange on Sunday January 09, 2022 @02:37AM (#29861144)
Vaccines do get pretty close to solving it, ie it doesn't appear there are any other humanly possible solutions more effective than vaccines.

(It is impossible to avoid being exposed to omicron or to get rid of it. Social distancing, lockdowns, etc, won't help this one. Vaccinating yourself/N95s/Pavloxid will help exposure not /matter/ though.)