I'm French, I hope we (France, EU) follow your lead.

I am French as well, and proud to be one.

France weights exactly nothing in such politics.

Let's take an easier case: the hijacking of the Estonian plane over Belarus to imprison Roman Protasevich (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair_Flight_4978).

Everyone was outraged, Macron had his martial face to say that we will not tolerate this (I voted for Macron, to be clear). What happened? Exactly nothing. And this is against a clown regime backed by Russia who has vital interests in Europe. We dod not have the power to force Putin to do anything.

We are dependent on China like we are dependent on the US. Each of these countries will fuck us up the moment we get out of line (US did it many times already - the latest being the Australian submarines, but also our interests in Iran (the US said: either you move away from Iran or you will have problems. We asked the EU for help and eventually moved away as instructed)).

So our Napoleonian idea of a great country that everyone fears is just in th ehead of some people.

If we wanted to weight whatever, EU would need to be united. This is not happening with the current EU structure.

> the latest being the Australian submarines, but also our interests in Iran

Good point.

I think Europe is the only continent that can oppose to colonialistic empires like US and China, but needs to have a single voice, France, Germany, Spain, Italy etc. alone are insignificant in the scenario.

The problem is that each of th eEU countries is a country. With its own interests, culture, history.

We are eons from a country such as the USA, which highlights how federal it is. It is still one country, with one president, one army etc.

We (in the EU) are countries that love or hate other for over 1000 years. Some of the dislike is deep, some is surprisingly different now (France and Germany for instance, forever enemies and now counties that are really close to each other thanks to the post-war efforts).

But when it comes to money and politics, we are often each for its own.

that's true, but in my opinion younger generations feel they are European more than anything else.

Even I, in my middle 40s, consider myself European before being Italian.

And I am proud to be from Europe, more than I am proud of my country (which I am not for so many things).

it's unlikely to be the norm, most people are most likely consider themselves to be a part of the group that they hear most about from their favorite source(like tv host or YouTuber)

do you think for most people its a "group of Europeans"

France weighs very heavily. With Germany, they led the move earlier this year for the investment deal with China. The decision was made to become reliant on China, and the pandemic significantly worsened this dependency because China's faster recovery essentially mitigated the economic effect of the pandemic.

But it was a choice. Germany's politics appears to have been totally compromised at the highest level by Russia and China (Scholz seems to have been hand-picked by China, his positions on China couldn't be more worrying regardless of what he has said in the past month). France is moving in the same direction, although it is hard to separate this from the profound weakness of Macron.

There is no equivalence with the US either. The French position (and German) position on Iran makes no sense, it is the equivalent of: pretend the problem doesn't exist, and it won't exist (again, with policy being led by business interests). The interests of the US overlap totally with the EU, the US has been funding European defence for decades to the tune of tens of trillions but, of course, France and Germany will continue to nuzzle up to Iran, China, and Russia because they waved their chequebook in front of exporters in economically weak regions.

The only saving grace has been the EU which has effectively counterbalanced France and Germany in these areas (they stopped the investment deal with China). But, again, the policy positions of France and Germany are incomprehensible. It is not that France is insignificant but that their policy is totally at odds with the US and the EU. The reason they aren't opposing China is because there is a strong desire to support China.

> The French position (and German) position on Iran makes no sense, it is the equivalent of: pretend the problem doesn't exist, and it won't exist (again, with policy being led by business interests).

We had contracts in Iran and had to break them because US warned of retaliation. We are weaker and had to back off.

The US obsession with Iran (driven by religious organizations), instead of staying with the US, was broadcasted to all countries which had to show their vassal position.

We did not like it, as you can imagine.

> The interests of the US overlap totally with the EU,

in Iran?

> the US has been funding European defence for decades to the tune of tens of trillions but, of course, France and Germany will continue to nuzzle up to Iran, China, and Russia because they waved their chequebook in front of exporters in economically weak regions.

Ah - here you are right. And the normal reaction of the US should have been "since you support our enemy, we are withdrawing from NATO and the money we pour into Europe". But then so many US military companies would loose contracts (less production) so this is obviously not the right thing to do.

The US is a bully, and proud to be one. We do not like to be bullied but are the small child in th eplayground so we suffer in silence, hoping that oone day we will be able to respond (a day that will not come)

adding to your metaphor, US is afraid that China that has been both a bully and a weaker bullied child, now has grown up almost to the point where they can be the biggest bully around. The same applies to Iran with their nuclear program.

EU itself is not really a bully, but most EU members are, and always were.

So Isn't it's a smart thing to do for EU to make other bullies to fight each other?

No. France's traditional stance is more independent non-aligned and it is in France's interest to maintain decent working relations with all sides.

France was the first Western country to recognise the PRC, for instance. This was realpolitik and hopefully that will continue.

Before every action we need to ask yourself what we want to achieve and whether that is actually achievable. This requires knowledge of other countries' history, culture, and politics. Rash, emotional moves are rarely productive. Historically France and other Western powers have been aggressors towards China (which partly caused the reaction that led to the current Chinese regime). The reality is that a country like France is in no position to pressure China and rash action against China would help the Chinese government at home by allowing them to invoke history.

Its incorrect to call opening an office for Taiwan a "rash, emotional move". It's a simple ackowledgement of the way things already are (two nations who talk and negotiate with each other) and helps Taiwan and France build their relationship.

The concern is that the CCP will have a rash, emotional response (as they did with Lithuania) because they imagine they can set the terms for any Taiwan-related business.

These frequent emotional outbursts have cost the CCP so much political capital, which means countries like France will reconsider their relationship.

France, like everyone else, has all the communications channels it needs with Taiwan, and does business with Taiwan as it sees fit, but I was not specifically referring to that but rather to closing the embassy in China and other actions against China.

> Its incorrect to call opening an office for Taiwan a "rash, emotional move"

> but I was not specifically referring to that but rather to closing the embassy in China and other actions against China

Could you clarify what other actions did Lithuania take against China? This is the timeline afaik [0]:

- In August 2021, the ROC opened its representative office in Vilnius under the name of "Taiwanese"

- In response, the PRC recalled its ambassador in Vilnius, Shen Zhifei, and demanded that Lithuania recall its ambassador in Beijing, Diana Mickevičienė.

- On 3 December 2021, Lithuania reported that in an escalation of the diplomatic spat over relations with Taiwan, China had stopped all imports from the Baltic state. It said Beijing has delisted Lithuania as a country of origin, preventing items from clearing customs, and was rejecting all import applications

- As a result of the conflict China pressured Continental AG and other international companies to stop doing business with Lithuania.[7] The spat spilled over to the rest of the EU when China banned the import of goods which contained Lithuanian parts potentially disrupting integrated supply chains in the common market.

^ not included in the timeline: internal propaganda to smear Lithuania as a nation once the PRC deemed the tiny country a threat for allowing ROC to open a representative office under the name "Taiwanese" in its capital

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Lithuania_relati...

Don't forget, there are hundreds of thousands of people employed by China to manipulate public opinion about China online.

Looking at the comment history of the person you responded to, they post pro-China stuff a lot. This is probably not a conversation being had in good faith by two disinterested parties. You're responding to a member of the 50 cent army.

They're everywhere online now. Some subtle, some not so subtle. But whenever I see a pro-China poster who doesn't really give any evidence to back up what they're saying, and they just spew pro-China apologist rhetoric, I become very suspicious.

You can't post like this to HN—it's egregiously against the site guidelines, and we ban accounts that do it. If you would please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules in the future, we'd be grateful. Don't miss this one:

"Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email [email protected] and we'll look at the data."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

If you want explanation as to why we have this rule, there is many years' worth at this link:

https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

also:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27398725

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26652363 (<-- Mini-FAQ)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26637365

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27397695

I have to flag this comment, which is nothing but a baseless ad hominem attack and insult, and has no place here. @dang

How is closing an embassy an "action against" someone?

Participating in trade with the PRC requires action to support the PRC through domestic censorship and diplomatic support on issues the PRC cares about (Taiwan).

France has a choice in whether they choose to support the PRC or not - this requires stepping on red lines and facing the consequences.

There is no domestic censorship in France on China-related topics. As I wrote before France chose a long time ago to switch from ROC/Taiwan to PRC in terms of diplomatic recognition because that was the pragmatic and realistic thing to do for France.

France trades with China because it is in its interest to do so, not because of any 'support' for China.

Nobody asks France or Germany to stop trading with China. But both countries should use more of their power to support a fellow democracy that is under threat.

If any of these companies are in France, then there is domestic censorship in France on China-related topics:

https://mashable.com/article/china-censorship-companies-hong...

No... Private companies make their own commercial decisions. There is no censorship on these topics on the part of the French authorities.

That’s impossible to prove, because not talking about it intentionally is self censorship, but by definition it wouldn’t be talked about so there’s no way of knowing.

Same here… Macron you reading this?

While I generally think the EU should have a deeper relationship with Taiwan, I disagree with your interpretation of what happened here. Lithuania has weak trade relations with the PRC in the first place, and got basically paid by the US to provoke the PRC. The EU having no coordinated foreign policy, but being supposed to show solidarity is ill equipped to react to a member state just going of the rails, and this now basically forces the hands of the other members.

This sets a dangerous precedent: A member state shouldn't be able to start shit and then hide behind the others, it is a perversion of the idea of solidarity. If the rest of the EU shows major Support for Lithuania now, it will signal that small countries can dictate policy through stunts like these.

It also once again shows that the US really loves to manipulate supposed allies if it benefits them, and that the transatlantic partnership must be fundamentally redefined.

> Lithuania … got basically paid by the US to provoke the PRC

Any links on that?

This occured after the embassy opening, one could argue that the spat with China attracted US investments.

Lithuania took a step in the right direction, something other EU states (Germany in particular) are afraid to do because it will affect their trade with China. Taiwan is an independent country, regardless of what the PRC thinks or wants others to think.

you seem to be implying that

1) a transaction between the US and Lithuania occurred in which Lithuania agrees to provoke PRC.

2) Lithuania provokes PRC (presumably the act involves the embassy opening).

However, the article you linked publicizes the U.S. trade support which seems to have occurred after (2). The article you linked does not permit one to draw the causal inference that (1)->(2)

Unfortunately, so few people think with logic, even on HN.

What interesting software or locally producing electronics companies are there in Lithuania? I will by something from them instantly.

Fun fact, Ubiquiti started here (it’s not a Lithuanian company though). Another big one that’s founded and manufactures all it’s stuff in Lithuania is Teltonika. They make telecommunications equipment (mostly LTE based wireless modems).

http://silelis.com projectors and http://snaige.lt refrigerators are the first ones that come to mind.

Are they made in PRC though?

SNAIGĖ makes everything locally in their Alytus factory.

Haven't heard about Šilelis before, but it does seem like a new company bought the trademark to sell repackaged junk from China.

Vinted, used clothes marketplace, unicorn by now and likely to IPO in the next 2-3 years.

Virpil ships from Lithuania but I believe is manufactured in Belarus. They make gloriously high quality flight sim gear, if you're into that: https://virpil-controls.eu

For cheap hosting https://www.time4vps.com/

Software:NordVPN.

Hardware: Deeper,Teltonika.

deeper.com (NSFW) is not the right site. deeper.eu is the correct one ;)

I suppose deeper.com doesn't offer that much when it comes to hardware:)

Judging from your and the GP's comments (only; didn't go there), something there has to be hard.

Teltonika, Ruptela.

Its interesting to see which countries are standing up to China. Particularly in the West where we like to grandstand over human rights (only up to the point where there is any kind of financial impact).

I agree.. I wish more countries would take a stand like this. But my own country (the Netherlands) are all about commerce and big business, they don't care about ideology.

> are all about commerce and big business

This is ideology

Yes, but an empty ideology nonetheless.

I am also Lithuanian. I totally disagree with Your position and see no justification why this is good for us.

You seem to be naive and ideological. We didn't do a lot of business with Taiwan previously, sure. But it's very small comparing to the amount of business we are losing to China. I don't know if You have noticed the rising prices of products in our country much faster than wages. It took 1-2 months to get a shipping container from China 6months ago. Now it takes 3-5 months. Prices are going up. Taking a political stance against China hurts our businesses, increases prices to us all. With the marginal benefit of a pat on the back from ideological people

I think we should not be overly naive and idealistic when it comes to international relations. A country's course of action is weighted in order to advance national interests.

In the context of tensions with Russia and Belarus it seems likely that Lithuania is getting something out of its stance against China from the US.

I think historically HN was mostly immune to FUD. Hope this is still the case.

Otherwise Lithuanian actions would seem somewhat irrational, wouldn't they?

The whole west depends on cheap labor and cheap resources that doesn't fit with human rights and economic interdependence prevents wars. Lithuania is small so the impact of a chinese boycott could be compensated by other countries, a full trade war has lot more impact, short term and long term.

You understimate the chaos that then comes into being.

Chinese labor is less cheap than it once was, and rising.

I bet that is more of a concern than human rights and the taiwan situation.

I also bet if China would still be economically and technologically inferior to the west taiwan wouldn't be even on the agenda.

We don't have a problem with Saudi Arabia's war with Yemen. Even after they caused largest cholera epidemic in human history.

Do you have a link about the Cholera thing? I am not really informed on the whole Yemen / Saudi

Even if you lose all business with China, in the long term that is better.

It’s disturbing I cannot buy goods that are not (at least partially) made in China.

One component of this seems to be that by moving online we've lost access to the labels on goods. In a store, you can usually just look at the "made in <X>" label printed on the box. On amazon, that information is pretty much never available.

Possibly this is partially because they're commingling inventory made in different places, but I think a lot of it's just that amazon doesn't see any reason to force people to list that.

I once asked a person working on a large music instrument website why products "Made in USA" or "Made in [European Country]" were labeled as such, but the ones made in other countries aren't, and the answer was pretty simple: they A/B tested it, but "Made in China" or even "Made in [Asian Country]" drives people away. Japan and Korea have a good reputation for instruments, though.

Best observed while grocery shopping in chinatowns or dense Asian marketplaces. I'd say 95% of canned and packaged products stocked are imports from China.

Well, I hope the US will payback well to you guys for being in line with Washington's desire and agenda.

It's impossible to do that for larger countries, cooperation with China is the only way. Large economies are too tightly coupled to just cut China off. It would take a decade or two.

Sunk cost fallacy. Anything is possible, it's just a matter of how much pain you're willing to bear for your principles.

We were fine profiting off from their lack of principals and were looking the other way for decades. There's no point for sudden drastic measures.

Another thing to keep in mind: any serious confrontation with China will be exploited by Russia. They already have made their moves known.

I think Musk was right on China recently, basically said that we have to come to terms with new reality, on both sides:

https://youtu.be/lSD_vpfikbE?t=2038

my bet is on "no more than the current situation" which is already causing big social issues in all western countries.

I whole-heartedly agree with your narrative.

However, following your argument of human rights, would you cut diplomatic ties to Russia in similar fashion? Who's your largest trading partner?