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Re:One way a builder culture can fail by MathMonkeyMan on Thursday December 02, 2021 @11:34PM (#29426648)
She seems mad by the end.

> Just imagine what companies would look like if their hiring processes filtered out this kind of charlatan instead of looking for whether they could do some dumb coding card trick in a 45 minute interview block. I think they'd look very different, and a whole bunch of people would have to find another industry to prey upon.

I would caution against hoping for a personality test that could weed out the phonies, though. "Behavioral interviews" are strange enough already, in my opinion, even if their goal might be admirable (e.g. identify the assholes).

Anywhere there is money and prestige to be had, you can either keep things small or inevitably suffer the phonies.

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by deanCommie on Friday December 03, 2021 @12:23AM (#29426888)
Honestly, I don't think it's that hard. I assume we're talking about fairly senior candidates here.

"Tell me about the most complicated projects you contributed a significant part of the design, implementation to, or ideally both."

Start with the problem they aimed to solve.

Probe for how they chose the solution, and what alternatives they considered.

Get into the details of specifically what artifacts they produced, and if part of a team what role they played.

Get them to describe the solution in technical detail.

Probe into trade-offs they had to make or compromises.

Ask what aspects they found novel or innovative.

Once they finish describing the system, ask if it was successful, and how they measured it.

If they were around after launch, how did they operate it, monitor it, what unexpected challenges they encountered that they didn't foresee.

By the way, all along it doesn't matter if the domain or technology they are describing to you is totally different from your own experience. A senior+ engineer should be able to explain their domain to someone equally technical in a different domain with some competency.

Finally, since you now understand the problem space and the solution yourself, ask them "How would you scale this out to 10-100X" (by some metric).

Altogether, this is a dense 40-45 minutes extremely well spent. And it weeds out the phonies and charlatans.

Some yellow flags that individually aren't a problem but when you start seeing multiple of them turn into a red flag:

* Someone who didn't question the requirements and just accepted them from upstream.

* Someone that wrote a lot of code on the project, but didn't make any of the tough decisions.

* Someone that avoids talking about what they did, and focuses too much on "we"

* Someone who did all the initial decisions but did none of the actual implementation work.

* Someone who describes how X solved the problem, but you realize that's the only option they really considered

* Someone who left before the project finished, or immediately after.

* Someone who isn't sure if the project was a success or didn't see it their responsibility to find out.

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by diggs on Friday December 03, 2021 @02:35AM (#29427571)
“Someone that avoids talking about what they did, and focuses too much on "we"”

This is very interesting. I naturally use “we” when discussing past products and achievements. I do this in recognition of the fact that things are very rarely designed and built in true isolation. Even principal engineers socialize their designs and thinking with colleagues, making small tweaks here and there or gaining additional confidence to move forward.

“We” is absolutely not a red flag for me.

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by Ma8ee on Friday December 03, 2021 @02:58AM (#29427688)
I agree. Maybe it's a cultural thing, but if someone talked about a big multiyear project only in terms of I, I would see that as a red flag. Either they actually did all the work themselves in isolation, but that must be because they are hard to work with, or they are taking all the credit for work done by a quite a few people in a team.
Re:One way a builder culture can fail by stormking on Friday December 03, 2021 @05:52AM (#29428620)
If you get asked, multiple times, how exactly you yourself contributed to the project and you continue only talking about what "we" did, it is absolutely a red flag.
Re:One way a builder culture can fail by ThrowawayR2 on Friday December 03, 2021 @03:32AM (#29427881)
> "Even principal engineers socialize their designs and thinking with colleagues, making small tweaks here and there or gaining additional confidence to move forward."

Principal engineers know that there are appropriate times to say "we did..." and appropriate times to lean heavily into saying "I specifically did..." (while crediting others for their part, of course, but as briefly as possible) and they also know which one an interview is.

"We" may not be a red flag (I appreciate a measure of humility and recognition of teamwork as well) but it must always followed up by a question about the details of what the interviewee did.

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by wastedhours on Friday December 03, 2021 @03:29AM (#29427863)
It depends on the context - but each time I've interviewed someone, the "we" is important, but the "I" is important-er. It's almost implicit that everyone works in a team to achieve big goals, but the reason I'm talking to that candidate is to hear what they did as part of that team as that's what makes a difference to the hiring.
Re:One way a builder culture can fail by cloverich on Friday December 03, 2021 @11:08AM (#29431536)
This is one of those things that's getting lost in the intention. I've been in an interview where I used we and the interviewer was fairly blunt in asksing which things I directly did, which I collaborated on, which I reviewed, etc. It becomes clear very quickly they aren't trying to figure out if you are sociable, but to understand what you do and do not know how to do. Shifting into that mindset it becomes easy to say things like "three person team. We collaborated on x,y,z. A and B were my primary responsibilties and I think my most important contributions were blah blah".
Re:One way a builder culture can fail by mastazi on Friday December 03, 2021 @03:00AM (#29427702)
Yeah for me as well, it's just a way of recognising teamwork. If anything I would say it's the opposite, excessive "I..me..myself" can become a red flag in some cases.
Re:One way a builder culture can fail by Jetrel on Friday December 03, 2021 @11:46AM (#29432038)
Speaking as someone who hires, "I" is a huge red flag for me — it's a dead ringer for what is (in a very soft sense), a confidence man. Someone who's aggressively and artificially trying to project an external appearance of competence. I've had multiple bad hires like this, and it's now something I really watch out for.

The worst thing with guys like this isn't that they're going to deliver less than promised, but it's that the aggressive "willingness to lie for their own benefit" bleeds into a lot of other behavior at work.

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by ed_elliott_asc on Friday December 03, 2021 @03:36AM (#29427901)
I prefer using “we” but early on in my career was rejected at an interview because they thought I hadn’t done anything myself - now I mix in we and “I specifically implemented/designed/etc.”
Re:One way a builder culture can fail by matwood on Friday December 03, 2021 @08:21AM (#29429679)
Same. As a long time team lead/manager I always take the blame when things go wrong and give credit to individuals other than myself when things go right.

Someone constantly using "I" like they worked in a vacuum, and didn't play nice with their team is a bigger red flag for me.

The important piece in the interview is can they answer in detail the rest of the questions.

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by deanCommie on Friday December 03, 2021 @04:04PM (#29435447)
I should have been clear - I start my interview by asking the candidate to focus on their experience and every time they talk about what "we" did on a project I follow up with what specifically they did.

The imposters/charlatans (and weeding them out was the context for this whole thread) find a way to avoid the question.

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by fuzzfactor on Friday December 03, 2021 @11:10PM (#29438631)
>"Tell me about the most complicated projects you contributed a significant part of the design, implementation to, or ideally both."

Start with the problem they aimed to solve.

Probe for how they chose the solution, and what alternatives they considered.

Get into the details of specifically what artifacts they produced, and if part of a team what role they played.

Get them to describe the solution in technical detail.

Probe into trade-offs they had to make or compromises.

Ask what aspects they found novel or innovative.

Once they finish describing the system, ask if it was successful, and how they measured it.

If they were around after launch, how did they operate it, monitor it, what unexpected challenges they encountered that they didn't foresee.

By the way, all along it doesn't matter if the domain or technology they are describing to you is totally different from your own experience. A senior+ engineer should be able to explain their domain to someone equally technical in a different domain with some competency.

This verbatim can very well apply to many different industrial engineering efforts, regardless of whether there is software involved.

>This cannot be upvoted enough.

I agree, and I mean far beyond the message board.

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by krageon on Friday December 03, 2021 @06:00AM (#29428669)
> I naturally use “we” when discussing past products and achievements

Then you will not get recognition about what you did in the eyes of others. It is hard to trust someone who hides behind a group, because it looks like you have no confidence in yourself or what you did.

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by diggs on Saturday December 04, 2021 @02:10AM (#29439312)
Recognition and trust have never been a problem for me. Have you hired at this level before, or merely assuming? As always there is nuance, as other commenters have touched on.
Re:One way a builder culture can fail by krageon on Monday December 06, 2021 @07:50AM (#29459079)
I have hired and been hired at this level and I have tried both approaches, one is IME far superior to the other. Any role which requires self-confidence is one where I would screen for candidates that are comfortable with claiming achievement.
Re:One way a builder culture can fail by LMYahooTFY on Friday December 03, 2021 @02:03AM (#29427404)
What would you say to someone who's starting their career and feels they would tick most if not all of those yellow flags?

I have to say this is an awesome thing to be reading as within a couple of months I'll be taking on my first major project at my new employer. Valuable insight to consider as I proceed.

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by ThrowawayR2 on Friday December 03, 2021 @02:20AM (#29427481)
> "What would you say to someone who's starting their career and feels they would tick most if not all of those yellow flags?"

Nothing, that's expected for a junior developer. The items on the list only become a problem when a "senior" developer does them. One of the parts of transitioning from junior to senior and beyond is learning to understand the business (or other) context you perform your craft in and shaping what you do to help the business succeed.

[EDIT] When I say "help the business succeed", that may sound like management claptrap (even if it happens to be true) so I'll also point out that even if you don't give a flying hoot about the business or its goals, you still do care about understanding whether it's succeeding and profitable/effective at its goals, lest you get blindsided by a layoff or cancellation of your project.

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by LMYahooTFY on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @02:20AM (#29469854)
Thank you for your advice. I've taken it seriously.

Cheers.

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by deanCommie on Friday December 03, 2021 @12:12PM (#29432385)
None of those are yellow flags if you are starting out in your career, in fact it would be totally expected!

It's only a yellow flag for a senior engineer - which in the framing of the original posting was being discussed. Someone with 7-10 years of experience, I'm imagining.

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by cbsks on Friday December 03, 2021 @01:08AM (#29427122)
As someone who just went through a dozen interviews, this line of questioning is by far my most favorite one to receive.
Re:One way a builder culture can fail by dockd on Friday December 03, 2021 @01:50PM (#29433626)
* Someone who left before the project finished, or immediately after.

In my experience, people leave just after the big project ships. They've been focused on a task, working hard and are usually left with "now what?". It's interesting psychology.

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by j7ake on Friday December 03, 2021 @02:47AM (#29427651)
In science these types of questions are part of the interview (either implicit or explicit), with maybe more added emphasis on future work and vision depending on the rank of the scientist.
Re:One way a builder culture can fail by pstuart on Friday December 03, 2021 @01:42AM (#29427299)
This cannot be upvoted enough.
Re:One way a builder culture can fail by wmf on Thursday December 02, 2021 @11:41PM (#29426683)
It seems like a leap from "person who wants to build X" to "charlatan".
Re:One way a builder culture can fail by ThrowawayR2 on Friday December 03, 2021 @12:37AM (#29426957)
We're not talking about some ordinary rank-and-file engineer here. The situation Rachel is talking about where the person is usually well-known among a significant fraction of their industry for their expertise in X. That level of seniority (principal level or beyond) is supposed to imply that they also know when -not- to use X and the responsibility to speak up, but sometimes either their belief in X is too strong ("When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.") or, in some cases I suspect, the monetary and career-enhancing incentives are high enough to overcome any unease they may have misapplying X. Then you get this situation where a mandate comes down for X is used where X is not really the appropriate thing to do.
Re:One way a builder culture can fail by jldugger on Friday December 03, 2021 @01:11AM (#29427150)
> The situation Rachel is talking about where the person is well-known among a significant fraction of their industry for their expertise in X.

I don't know the specifics of Rachel's parable, if any. But by and large, the people who are most well known in industry for 'expertise in X' are the devrel / tech evangelists whose job it is to go on stage and be an expert, for one hour at a time (and perhaps a few extra hours on the show floor surrounding the conference). Well, the on-stage demos they execute only have to live as long as the lecture, and you don't have to fix bugs so much as rework the preso to avoid them. It's a long march from a proof of concept to production readiness, and I've seen one or two stories on HN about people who got burned hiring high profile devrels to lead an infra buildout.

> sometimes either their belief in X is too strong ... or, ... the monetary and career-enhancing incentives are high enough to overcome any unease they may have

One scenario I've seen play out: you hire a core maintainer for a product you depend on, but should probably be transitioning away from. The maintainer you typically don't have comparable expertise in anything else, so they might as well apply for unemployment before telling your boss you recommend against it. Which I suppose is covered in 'monetary incentives' but with tinge of regret about the whole thing, especially if hired away from some a more stable role.

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by pjmlp on Friday December 03, 2021 @02:01AM (#29427397)
You also have those whose consulting career is fully based on being 'experts in X', being on stage doing talks on X, is the mean to sell themselves as 'experts in X', alongside writting books about how cool X happens to be no matter what.
Re:One way a builder culture can fail by vosper on Friday December 03, 2021 @03:05AM (#29427719)
> But by and large, the people who are most well known in industry for 'expertise in X' are the devrel / tech evangelists whose job it is to go on stage and be an expert, for one hour at a time (and perhaps a few extra hours on the show floor surrounding the conference).

When I think of "experts in X" I usually think of the people who created or maintain the thing, or who're active in the Github issues. I guess some of those people might be considered tech evangelists, but I don't think I could name a single devrel person.

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by markus_zhang on Thursday December 02, 2021 @11:44PM (#29426702)
One probably spent too much time debugging someone's shit mountain code base, the original author got to enjoy bog bonuses and bragging about X in conferences and getting hired by similar companies to build another X.
Re:One way a builder culture can fail by fuzzfactor on Friday December 03, 2021 @10:58PM (#29438579)
It doesn't have to be a malicious charlatan to pounce on value that has already been built, without them having actual consideration for future value that should be more rewarding and more sensibly worth working toward instead.

The corporate-climber-who-can't-build can often do this and nothing else, and they can sometimes even subconsciously exhibit some of the behaviors that end up with the same outcome, and it often can actually be unintentional.

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by Jtsummers on Thursday December 02, 2021 @11:48PM (#29426726)
> I will now point out that whether X makes it to production can become disconnected from the notion of whether X actually belongs in production. In one outcome, it's brilliantly executed and things grow. But, this is about the downsides, and in that scenario, it's a stinking pile of garbage and needs to be thrown out, but it gets forced in, anyway. [emphasis added]

She's left the positive case out for the charlatan comment, they wouldn't be charlatans (in this instance at least).

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by thaumasiotes on Friday December 03, 2021 @12:34AM (#29426945)
The guy building X isn't a charlatan in any case. The charlatan is the guy selling X, which is presumably the guy who hired the guy who builds it.

If you tell me to build you a system you don't need, and I do, and you insist on using it against everyone else's better judgment, how did I become a charlatan?

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by lazyasciiart on Friday December 03, 2021 @12:43AM (#29426996)
Because if you're the expert on X, you can either stand up and agree with everyone that building X is not the right decision, or you can smile and nod and say yea, we should totally build our own X, it's a great idea. If you say no, it won't happen.
Re:One way a builder culture can fail by dgb23 on Friday December 03, 2021 @06:11AM (#29428727)
On one side I would say that this the most authentic course of action.

But that doesn't suddenly shift all the responsibility to the expert. The power relation and degree of freedom between those who hire and those who get hired is often asymmetric. The ones who hire usually are the ones who make the decisions, so they should be held accountable for those.

Now of course if the expert does have a sufficient degree of freedom then they become complicit.

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by em-bee on Friday December 03, 2021 @01:37AM (#29427271)
and they loose the job they were just hired for.

because the more likely situation is that the newly hired expert on X is the only one realizing that X is wrong for this case.

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by ed_elliott_asc on Friday December 03, 2021 @03:19AM (#29427796)
If you know you were being hired for one specific task shouldn’t you have talked about the fit before you start? I would say that is reasonable.
Re:One way a builder culture can fail by dgb23 on Friday December 03, 2021 @06:30AM (#29428850)
It's not always reasonable, because in the general case you don't know until later right? You discover the issues at some point when already working. Also you're implying that there is no economic dependence which is not always the case.
Re:One way a builder culture can fail by lazyasciiart on Friday December 03, 2021 @03:25AM (#29427840)
The ones who lie to keep their job are the ones who get called 'charlatan'. Seems fair.
Re:One way a builder culture can fail by em-bee on Saturday December 04, 2021 @11:48AM (#29442030)
except they are most likely only being asked if they can build X (which they can) and not if X is appropriate here. so at the most they are lying by omission, but more realistically they are opting not to become a whistleblower.
Re:One way a builder culture can fail by JeremyNT on Friday December 03, 2021 @01:55PM (#29433698)
> She seems mad by the end.

You'll see this sort of things a lot from Rachel's writing, but I tend to write it off as a stylistic choice. She kind of channels the BOFH [0] sometimes, I think :)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastard_Operator_From_Hell

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by pm90 on Friday December 03, 2021 @12:34AM (#29426946)
Filtering out the assholes is an accepted policy today but it didn’t just happen. Assholes were accepted and that sort of attitude wasn’t discouraged, until people started speaking up about it and others realized they probably had seen that dynamic. I see this article as a step in extending the anti-asshole policy to people who engage in this sort of behavior.

Can I tell you a perfect personality test that will always work and never fail? Absolutely not. Even the anti asshole processes don’t always work. But it seems a good thing that this sort of behavior is at least being described and reported on.

Re:One way a builder culture can fail by taurath on Friday December 03, 2021 @12:39AM (#29426968)
Every company that I’ve been in that had an anti asshole policy has meant that they don’t tolerate assholes at the line engineer level, since that’s reserved for management, especially director and up.

I guess it’s better, but the proof is in what the management team looks like.