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Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by AussieWog93 on Saturday November 06, 2021 @11:36PM (#29136340)
It's always interesting to hear this from employees of McDonald's in the US. Here in Australia, it's widely regarded as a great first employer that pays well and provides fantastic experience to young people.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by spamizbad on Saturday November 06, 2021 @11:43PM (#29136367)
A lot of it has to do with management practices for low wage workers in the US. They aren't treated fairly. Part of the reason why this sector is struggling to hire in the US right now isn't just because of pay: it's the fact that you get treated poorly by management. Better paying jobs that aren't as grueling opened up during the so-called "great resignation" and tons of former low-wage workers have stepped in to fill those roles.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by wespiser_2018 on Sunday November 07, 2021 @12:10AM (#29136486)
This is sad, but true. One thing I've heard about is flex scheduling, where you don't know your schedule until the last possible minute. Sure, great a project for a guy in IT like me and the VP who manages him back at HQ to get some costs down, but it's absolute havoc on peoples lives. That's one example, but it's nonstop.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by chaorace on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:34AM (#29136835)
One rumor that occasionally makes the rounds is that managers specifically seek to disorient and fatigue workers with hostile flex schedules in order to keep employees too exhausted to seek better work.

It's a little dramatic for my taste, Occam's Razor probably applies, but there might just be a grain of truth to it... at least in the darwinian sense where incompetent time management just so happens to somehow beat workers into submission better than competent time management happens to retain them. The incompetent managers win out over time and a dominant pattern emerges.

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by lotsofpulp on Sunday November 07, 2021 @05:45AM (#29138206)
I know small business owners in the hotel business that use this tactic to prevent workers from finding other jobs. It is a very common tactic that I would say most small business owners hear or figure out very quickly.

Another is using immigrants or poor people trying to establish themselves as managers in name, but in reality they are there to fill in for the lower paid shift workers who are constantly quitting or unreliable because they are paying the lowest wages.

The “managers” put up with this to earn a steady salary paycheck, but per hour worked, it frequently comes out to less than minimum wage.

Obama admin increasing minimum salaries to $48k from $33k had the small business owners I know frothing at the mouth.

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by bsenftner on Sunday November 07, 2021 @07:07AM (#29138754)
I've seen small to medium sized programming shops doing contract work on web sites or some unknown game company paying people between $25K to $30K a year, and working teams of them 60 hours a week... People with masters degrees in CS, actually making around $10 an hour, so they can have a programming job on their resume... far more evil than fast food, if you ask me.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by lotsofpulp on Sunday November 07, 2021 @07:39AM (#29138954)
I do not see the point of ranking it, but I would factor in the probabilities of advancement and improving quality of life for a person with history of programming versus fast food.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by noir_lord on Sunday November 07, 2021 @05:43AM (#29138199)
Hanlan's razor

> Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

With the corollary

> but don't rule out malice.

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by kibwen on Sunday November 07, 2021 @02:15AM (#29137246)
Flex scheduling should be downright illegal for part-time jobs, since it requires you to keep your schedule so open that it disrupts your life to the same extent as working full-time hours. Force employers to lock down schedules long enough in advance that people can actually plan to live their lives.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by throwaway0a5e on Sunday November 07, 2021 @07:16AM (#29138819)
Flex scheduling is one of those things that's had far more staying power in the heads of people in ivory towers than in the heads of people in boardrooms. (not that that doesn't mean some dunce isn't implementing it somewhere at any given time). It bounced around various industries in the 2000s and mostly ran its course when people figured out it increases errors, increases lateness and no-shows, increases turnover and the benefits were scant if measurable. I know of at least one chain of retail stores where the results were bi-modal. The bottom distribution was the stores that just implemented the schedules at face value. The top distribution was the one where managers realized the schedules were insane and came up with their own off the books. I don't think that chain will be trying to push flex scheduling on its locations again for a very long time.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by jackorange on Saturday November 06, 2021 @11:45PM (#29136379)
A lot of it is also the American public being selfish and inconsiderate of others. Even at a low wage, I'm sure the job would be more bearable and perhaps even enjoyable if the employees were not treated so poorly by the public and their coworkers.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by brightball on Saturday November 06, 2021 @11:44PM (#29136375)
That’s how Chick-fil-A is in the US. Staff is very well paid, well trained, offered support for college. Customers gush about how well run the places are.

During parts of the worst sections of the labor shortage, I was seeing CFA owners on my Facebook feed saying that they couldn’t hire anyone offering $19-23 / hr so they couldn’t imagine what everybody else must be going through.

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by TylerE on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:16AM (#29137006)
I suspect part of the difference is that all CFAs are corporate owned, whereas most chains are franchised.

You see a similar thing with gas stations, where the "nicer" ones (Buckees, Sheetz, Wawa) are corporate owned, whereas BP, Shell, etc are franchised.

Not that there aren't GOOD franchised locations, but it's much more variable.

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by causi on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:43AM (#29137115)
Untrue. Many CFAs are franchise locations. Anecdotally, the corporate locations are much better to work at.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by brightball on Sunday November 07, 2021 @12:13PM (#29141290)
I think they are 50-50 owned corporate and franchisee. No franchisee owns it outright.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by irrational on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:58AM (#29137176)
Eh, the two CFAs in my area are both franchises. My daughter has worked at both. One has amazing owners who treat the staff fantastic and have low turnover. The other is run by a totally disengaged guy who is not very nice - the place is a disaster with high turnover.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by brightball on Sunday November 07, 2021 @08:00AM (#29139090)
We had one that went bad where I live. Corporate stepped in and forced the guy out.

They take that stuff very seriously.

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by tbyehl on Sunday November 07, 2021 @08:37AM (#29139339)
CFA has this unusual model where operators are buying the job of running a location. Hardly any locations are "Corporate Owned" but that's more technicality than reality.

https://www.businessinsider.com/what-it-costs-to-open-a-chic...

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by seibelj on Sunday November 07, 2021 @12:15AM (#29136512)
It will all sort itself out. If you can’t hire employees at a certain wage then either wages increase or the job changes. There is no other option. The “job changing” could also be changes to make it more palatable.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by ghaff on Sunday November 07, 2021 @12:20AM (#29136540)
Or you change your product/market in a way that is more tolerant of higher wages even if it changes your target customer in a way that excludes a segment of your previous market.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by seibelj on Sunday November 07, 2021 @12:25AM (#29136568)
You can increase the price of your product. This is what’s happening throughout the entire economy - workers demand more money, wages go up, prices increase, inflation hits 5%. It’s not surprising.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by ghaff on Sunday November 07, 2021 @12:36AM (#29136612)
Maybe. It depends if the wage increases are going to the buyers of your product or not. If the wage increases are indeed flowing to low-paid fast food workers and others in the same general category who eat a lot of fast food, then you can probably just increase the price of Quarter Pounders. If someone who doesn't eat Quarter Pounders is getting the money, not so much.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by HarryHirsch on Sunday November 07, 2021 @07:40AM (#29138958)
The obvious other adjustment would be to decrease the rent, but that would affect loan valuations, and we can't have another round of bank failures.

(The other problem is the building materials shortage because you can't inflate yourself out of the shortage of available housing, you need to actually build new construction, but we are getting sidetracked.)

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by alphabettsy on Sunday November 07, 2021 @12:42AM (#29136638)
Or this narrative is being used to drive price increases. McDonald’s increased their profits and increased their prices last I heard and one didn’t necessarily drive the other.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by WalterBright on Sunday November 07, 2021 @04:12AM (#29137717)
If they go up by the same percentage, it's running in place, not extra profits.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by alphabettsy on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:01PM (#29141799)
It’s not the same.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by rackjack on Sunday November 07, 2021 @12:42AM (#29136637)
Isn't this inflation also caused by the Federal Reserve printing a lot more money?

edit: Wait the TREASURY prints money, not the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve just... greases the wheels of banks, I guess?

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by jonny_eh on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:57AM (#29136913)
Or we increase immigration to account for falling birthrates.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by inawarminister on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:49AM (#29137142)
And increase the brain drain on the developing world, yay!
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by AussieWog93 on Sunday November 07, 2021 @04:02AM (#29137655)
Brain Drain is just a theory, and a pretty contentious one at that. There's quite a bit of evidence to suggest that the positive effects of emigration can outweigh the negatives.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by rini17 on Sunday November 07, 2021 @04:09AM (#29137694)
Can you source any examples please?

What can outweigh intelligent people not improving life in home country but building career in 1st world?

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by AussieWog93 on Sunday November 07, 2021 @04:48AM (#29137896)
>Can you source any examples please?

The Philippines is one that springs to mind.

They have a massive industry over there training up nurses with the explicit intention of sending them overseas. The net result of this is a top class health care system.

Cash remittances make up 10% of their GDP. This is in addition to a culture of overseas workers sending massive gift boxes back home once a year (often containing expensive things like smartphones and laptops for the younger generations' education).

Plus you have the soft power and less tangible benefits (cultural exchange, etc.)

The Government actually actively encourages people to emigrate, in fact, as it's a great way for the country to get ahead culturally and economically. They simply don't have the industry locally to support the high number of skilled and educated workers they produce.

>What can outweigh intelligent people not improving life in home country but building career in 1st world?

This statement carries with it a couple of assumptions:

- People in a corrupt society will work hard to get an education when it doesn't give them an opportunity to make a better life overseas.

- Educated people who remain in their corrupt, third-world countries of birth will have the opportunities to use their skills to improve their home country.

- People in poor, but non-corrupt and growing economies that have the opportunity to stay and improve things will instead leave.

I'm sure you can find multiple examples to shatter every one of those assumptions (Nigeria really sticks out for the second one).

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by rini17 on Sunday November 07, 2021 @05:47AM (#29138216)
You actually confirmed my assumptions about self-perpetuating corruption. Tell me who is going to actually improve that if most people with necessary skills and mindset leave? Sending back money alone won't do it. These people may personally have worse life if they stayed, not denying that. But what about global view? First world will eventually have to deal with resulting political turmoil.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by AussieWog93 on Sunday November 07, 2021 @07:52AM (#29139033)
>Tell me who is going to actually improve that if most people with necessary skills and mindset leave? Sending back money alone won't do it.

You're ignoring the WhatsApp factor. Immigrants experience first hand how well Western democracy works and then share that with everybody back home.

It's also quite common, at least in my experience, for people to follow politics back home. Invariably, they advocate quite vocally for more democracy, less corruption and less discrimination.

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by rini17 on Sunday November 07, 2021 @03:56PM (#29143442)
Whatsapp is not enough! Some of them need to stay there and actually get elected. Democracy needs not only advocacy but also competent politicians, and that's a rare talent. Probably there are enough of them in your country so you can't even imagine that as a requirement. Count yourself lucky.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by lotsofpulp on Sunday November 07, 2021 @06:15AM (#29138388)
So the children born in developed countries (who got developed on the backs of undeveloped countries) are entitled to living better lives than children born in undeveloped countries, who should not have the opportunity to move out to developed countries?
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by rightbyte on Sunday November 07, 2021 @06:44AM (#29138606)
Most developed countries were not colonial powers. How did e.g. South Korea and Finland become "developed" on the backs of the third world?
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by lotsofpulp on Sunday November 07, 2021 @06:56AM (#29138688)
Look at it by population. US/UK/EU/Can/Aus, the more popular immigration destinations.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by AussieWog93 on Sunday November 07, 2021 @07:56AM (#29139059)
If providing a decent life to a hard working, aspirational individual whose work ethic and talent would have been pissed up the wall back at home counts as "developing off the back" of poorer nations, then I don't really see it as a bad thing at all.

Don't forget that many developing countries have a wide array of policies in place to ensure that they can't make proper use of their human capital.

My father-in-law, for example, is an environmental scientist who simply couldn't find work in his field (public sector) back in South Africa in the early 00s as there were racial quotas and affirmative action policies that didn't work in his favour.

He was offered a job in NZ, after a solid year of being unemployed, and jumped ship immediately. His talent wasn't stolen by the developed world so much as it wasted by his underdeveloped home.

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by lotsofpulp on Sunday November 07, 2021 @08:09AM (#29139163)
I was referring to the era when resources were extracted to developed countries or labor (slaves) were moved around as needed to developing countries as “developing of the back” of poorer countries.

We are saying the same thing.

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by dukeyukey on Sunday November 07, 2021 @04:54AM (#29137933)
Intelligent people moving abroad, making bank, and sending home a sizeable portion of their cash back home to support their family and used to build their home country's capital stocks.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by int_19h on Sunday November 07, 2021 @05:18PM (#29144068)
It's individual persons in the developing world that make the choice to move or not. Why are you so keen to build barriers to prevent them from making that choice?
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by LogonType10 on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:08AM (#29136966)
Please tell us what the "correct" birthrate is.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by wayanon on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:19AM (#29137015)
I think something like 2.1 births per woman for a stable population not incl migration in/out. In the U.K. it’s 1.65 but I’m not too bothered.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by LogonType10 on Sunday November 07, 2021 @02:24AM (#29137273)
Do we want to have the same population forever? We're running out of drinking water.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by throw0101a on Sunday November 07, 2021 @08:11AM (#29139176)
Non-unionized FedEx is supposedly having issues with staffing currently, while unionized UPS isn't.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by lotsofpulp on Sunday November 07, 2021 @09:05AM (#29139525)
FedEx using the name FedEx for Express (employees? more highly paid?) and Ground (contractors? Cheap labor?) seems stupid to me.

Fedex has come up in conversation over the past year as the worst logistics company, even from people who know nothing about logistics. All they see is that if it is coming via FedEx, then it very well might not come when it says it will.

Why would you want to tarnish your entire brand image like that? Would you not want FedEx Express to be a different name than FedEx Ground so that people still think to go to your more valuable product than just thinking screw it, I am going with UPS or USPS?

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by exhilaration on Sunday November 07, 2021 @10:56AM (#29140489)
And it seems to be paying off. I'm a manager at a large Unnamed Parcel Service, we had a big conference call 2 days back where the execs were raving about how much business we were winning from FedEx.

They still make us go through a yearly training on how to prevent unionization though...

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by nradov on Sunday November 07, 2021 @12:45AM (#29136652)
Most McDonald's restaurants are independent franchises so despite some standardized training there's a huge variance in how managers treat workers. Some are fine, others are terrible.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by AYBABTME on Saturday November 06, 2021 @11:39PM (#29136349)
When I worked at McDonald's in Canada, it also was a hard job, and seen as a good early employer... because it showed you were capable/useful. It was "hard" in that you need to get used to the beat of things, then it becomes sort of fun. But the schedule was no good. Pay was the same as other restaurants (like 6-7$/h back then).
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by throwawayboise on Saturday November 06, 2021 @11:39PM (#29136348)
I'm in the USA. Worked for McDonalds starting as a junior in high school and through college. It was a great job for a young kid, I learned a lot about business and restaurant operations. Pay wasn't super, but it was spending money. Never intended to be the sort of job to support a family.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by alphabettsy on Sunday November 07, 2021 @12:45AM (#29136659)
Where does this idea of “Never intended to be the sort of job to support a family.” come from? Half or more of the people I see working at any given fast food chain are adults, which makes sense considering they need some mature people around and people to work during the day when kids are at school. What about those people?
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by refurb on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:29AM (#29136824)
Managers can make good money, I think OP was referring to the entry level positions.

And I would agree, they aren’t intended to provide a wage to support a family. That doesn’t stop people who are doing just that to work those jobs.

And there are also plenty of adults who don’t need to work who do those jobs. I know a few older guys who work part time at Home Depot making peanuts but they don’t need to the money, they need some routine and interactions.

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by alphabettsy on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:58AM (#29137175)
> And I would agree, they aren’t intended to provide a wage to support a family. That doesn’t stop people who are doing just that to work those jobs.

Still wondering why or who intends this?

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by refurb on Sunday November 07, 2021 @09:44AM (#29139804)
Because not everyone needs to support a family?
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by js8 on Sunday November 07, 2021 @07:32AM (#29138901)
> they aren’t intended to provide a wage to support a family

What are these jobs good for then? How is society benefiting from having people doing this for so little, as opposed to them getting a proper job (that is supposed to support a family)?

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by refurb on Sunday November 07, 2021 @09:43AM (#29139791)
Because not everyone needs to support a family?

If a 16 year old needs a job are you saying the jobs should support a family?

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by alphabettsy on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:04PM (#29141832)
The people quitting their jobs to find a living wage and consistent reasonable working hours at McDonald’s aren't 16 though. They’re the people who these jobs aren’t “intended” for. Now that they’re gone where are all the 16 year olds that these jobs are “intended” for?
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by refurb on Sunday November 07, 2021 @08:17PM (#29145259)
They’ll either find people at that wage or they won’t.

I’m not sure I understand the handwringing. If some guy opens a used computer shop and asks $1,000 for an old 486 chip I don’t worry about “who is going to buy it?”.

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by johnny53169 on Sunday November 07, 2021 @03:13AM (#29137445)
> And there are also plenty of adults who don’t need to work who do those jobs.

Do you have any numbers on that? Your comment sounds like what an out of touch rich person would say, since only rich people can do without money.

> That doesn’t stop people who are doing just that to work those jobs.

And why is that do you think?

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by WalterBright on Sunday November 07, 2021 @04:15AM (#29137727)
I recall one profiled in the Seattle Times a few years ago. He was working as a Walmart greeter into his 90s. He said he didn't need the money, but the job got him up, out of the house, and socializing with people.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by alphabettsy on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:13PM (#29141901)
If the greeter didn’t show up for work one day I feel comfortable saying it wouldn’t matter at all, it’s not the same as when the cooks at McDonald’s don’t show. It is nice to have them welcome you though.

That is not the kind of jobs we’re talking about though. People who don’t need to work are not who’s being discussed.

Since we’re using anecdotes instead of data I’ll add some. More than one retiree in my family left the workforce because of Covid because they were afraid of contracting it. I don’t know if they’ll go back to work, but they’re not in the labor pool regardless.

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by WalterBright on Sunday November 07, 2021 @02:32PM (#29142655)
> People who don’t need to work are not who’s being discussed.

That's exactly the topic of the person I replied to.

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by refurb on Sunday November 07, 2021 @04:21AM (#29137760)
No, I don’t have numbers, I just know several people. Not wealthy by any means. People on pensions, etc.

And sure, some people works those jobs since they can’t find anything else. Not sure what you’re getting at. Would you prefer those jobs just didn’t exist?

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by johnny53169 on Sunday November 07, 2021 @11:51AM (#29141076)
> Would you prefer those jobs just didn’t exist?

They don't exist in my country and people don't seem sadder for it.

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by WalterBright on Sunday November 07, 2021 @02:35PM (#29142683)
Some simple jobs exist so mentally challenged people can find pride and purpose in their lives because they are doing useful work, rather than sitting around being pitied.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by alphabettsy on Sunday November 07, 2021 @08:10PM (#29145220)
Again, says who?

Do the mentally challenged universally care about pride in their work and purpose? Isn’t a pointless job still pitiful?

Some people are excluded from being paid the minimum wage and in some cases are exploited. That’s likely not in many or most cases, but my point is that I doubt the jobs were created with the mentally challenged in mind.

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by WalterBright on Sunday November 07, 2021 @09:06PM (#29145521)
> Again, says who?

I personally know some. I've seen some profiled in the newspaper. I know of programs that match them with jobs.

> Do the mentally challenged universally care about pride in their work and purpose?

Universally? There are always exceptions. But plenty do, just like with everybody else.

> I doubt the jobs were created with the mentally challenged in mind.

I've seen them, for example, working as ticket takers in movie theaters. Nothing wrong with that, and it's a job that still needs doing.

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by refurb on Sunday November 07, 2021 @08:18PM (#29145265)
What jobs don’t exist? Low wage jobs? Jobs that you can’t support a family with?

I call BS.

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by arch-ninja on Sunday November 07, 2021 @05:30AM (#29138130)
Anecdata: I'm a number that supports that, I couldn't live with myself if I wasn't able to do meaningful work. You sound like a cohort of friends I have who run around with "eat the rich" feel-good campaigns and can't be bothered to have dinner with their families; that was presumptuous but I feel like the world would be much happier with more people finding meaningful work (understanding of course that "meaningful" is different for everyone and it's rare that you find a perfect fit at your first/second job) and fewer people asking for the world to change in ways that stroke their ego. Life is an adventure, and an adventure where you never get hurt or face challenges isn't much of a life now is it?
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by johnny53169 on Sunday November 07, 2021 @11:53AM (#29141093)
"Eat the rich" is a stupid slogan, I still don't understand how a Walmart greeter is a meaningful job considering it almost only exists in the US.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by MomoXenosaga on Sunday November 07, 2021 @06:08AM (#29138339)
Maybe McDonald's hires the kind of people who can't get a job elsewhere?

The employer of last resort. There's no welfare system in the US.

Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by strawdynamics on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:00AM (#29136720)
They are poor.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by catlikesshrimp on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:47AM (#29136878)
"Even poor families" need support.
Re:The fast-food workers’ season of rebellion by LogonType10 on Sunday November 07, 2021 @01:10AM (#29136979)
>Never intended to be the sort of job to support a family.

I don't intend any disrespect, but you're repeating revisionist history.