News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by encryptluks2 on Saturday October 30, 2021 @08:42AM (#29048328)
About time. I don't know why, but for me in Linux Chromium has had much better performance than Firefox. Maybe this will help.
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by flipbrad on Saturday October 30, 2021 @09:35AM (#29048626)
The only websites I've noticed Chromium having an advantage, are those run by or embedding Google content (eg Google maps)
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by iotku on Saturday October 30, 2021 @09:59AM (#29048806)
At this point I have enough confidence in Google's developers to consider bad performance in Firefox not an accident.
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by watermelon0 on Saturday October 30, 2021 @10:19AM (#29048969)
It's much more believable that they are developing with Chromium in mind, and testing primarily on it.

I've seen many webapps that are completely unrelated to Google, that are more performant on Chromium browsers, just because most developers are using them for development. It's also easier to justify spending time fixing bugs/improving performance if it affects the majority of users, instead of spending effort for 4% of users.

Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by dralley on Saturday October 30, 2021 @10:31AM (#29049058)
Google has, in the past, made YouTube reliant on non-standard browser APIs and shipped a polyfill for other browsers that had terrible performance.

It's not just that they passively focus on Chromium, they will deliberately trash performance on every other browser without a second thought.

Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by floatboth on Saturday October 30, 2021 @05:26PM (#29052407)
It didn't actually have bad performance. I never had performance problems on YouTube, and I even made my own apps with Polymer / Web Components v0 (before v1 became a thing) purely in Firefox (never even tested in Chromium), it all worked pretty well.
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by diegocg on Saturday October 30, 2021 @01:00PM (#29050303)
Google didn't have much of a choice. It's either a polyfill or not supporting Firefox at all.

Or having two different frontends, or stopping feature development to make Firefox developers happy. Which are terrible choices.

And going beyond of what standards offer is pretty much how web evolution had always happened.

Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by dralley on Saturday October 30, 2021 @01:22PM (#29050492)
What? Of course they had a choice.

Google built their redesign on top of a prototype set of APIs that didn't end up being standardized. That's their own fault, and it should be their problem.

It's not just Firefox devs, it's everyone else apart from Chrome, because Chrome had gone and implemented said APIs that were never standardized, so they didn't need a polyfill. And I would bet money that ShadowDOM v0 would have been removed from the Chrome codebase earlier if not for the fact that Youtube was using it - they wouldn't have forced themselves to use the same polyfill as everyone else.

Shipping a new, standards incompliant frontend was a choice, not an immutable fact of nature. There was nothing wrong with the previous frontend apart from the fact that nobody is going to get promoted for not shipping the new thing. And since the consequences of shipping impact everyone except for Google, who cares, let's ship the garbage UI anyway.

Don't make excuses for this kind of behavior. Google absolutely has the resources to do these things properly but they didn't.

Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by md8z on Saturday October 30, 2021 @07:20PM (#29053056)
I'm sorry but this comment rings very hollow to me. I have seen this "hypothetically they could have done more" type of sentiment repeated so much on HN and it's not helpful nor is it a meaningful criticism of Google. Every browser has some non-standard features. That isn't new, Google isn't the first one to do it, they certainly won't be the last. Do they have a choice to not do that? Sure, but nobody chooses to do it because it makes it harder to actually iterate on things. The "behavior" is widespread and every vendor is already making excuses for it.

There is a real problem here and it's absolutely related to the fact that Google is only incentivized to develop/test on their own browser, but that's really orthogonal to other browsers being slow or not being able to improve performance of a polyfill.

Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by wisniewskit on Saturday October 30, 2021 @11:19PM (#29054173)
Oh come on. Google is never going to have an incentive to do better if we just excuse them for their bad behaviour, especially in cases like this where claiming any equivalence is simply ludicrous. One must be wilfully ignorant to act as though their ambitions are "orthogonal" to other browsers purely due to their own faults.

Google did not have to publicly ship their pre-standard experimental "v0" web components implementation so early in Chrome. They chose to do so regardless of what other browser vendors expressed.

Likewise they did not have to make YouTube use them so soon, thus forcing other browsers to rely on a polyfill that could not feasibly be made remotely performant compared to just implementing web components more quickly, wink wink.

They chose to do these things the way they did. They wanted to ship it on their timeline, and to hell with what other browsers wanted to spend time on first instead. They wanted to look like they were heroes for pushing the web forward, while in reality they were just holding other vendors and APIs back to get the one they valued the most done first, no matter how much of a mess they caused in the process (the transition from v0 to v1 was hardly quick or painless). And that's just web components.

When is the last time you saw Firefox ship such a major web API in such a non-final and un-vetted state, and then use one of the largest web properties on Earth to get others to prioritize it as they wished? Or even Apple, for that matter?

It's flat out ridiculous to try equating the vendors in this manner. They don't have the market dominance or even the same force of apologists burying the lede on their bad behaviour.

I'm sure the other browsers also have their own Project Fugus underway too, where they're just shipping a slurry of new APIs regardless of whether anyone else will ever implement them? Or is that the others' fault somehow too, because they should also be trying to fragment the web as much as possible as quickly as possible?

If we collectively just want Chromium to be the only engine because we value rapidly iterating on new APIs more than anything, then let's at least be honest about it.

Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by md8z on Sunday October 31, 2021 @12:02AM (#29054360)
Look, I hear what you're saying but it all just sounds like hypotheticals to me. If you want to take that approach, hypothetically the other vendors could have chose to standardize the feature, it could have become standard, and all the other browsers could have implemented it and it wouldn't be a problem. But that didn't happen. And I have seen plenty of other features that were gated behind Moz or Webkit prefixes.

I'm not trying to be a downer here. Realistically, there will always be a browser out in front that is going to iterate on features faster than the others. That's normal as long as you have more than one browser. If we want to criticize Google for practicing anti-competitive behavior then let's do that, but it just really doesn't make sense to me to put "they shipped a feature that someone else didn't" in that category.

Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by wisniewskit on Sunday October 31, 2021 @11:38AM (#29057723)
It's not that you're being a downer, you're just not presenting things in a fair or accurate manner.

Google didn't merely "ship a feature someone else didn't". They keep shipping new features as they wish, whether others even agree. They have in fact accelerated that attitude with Project Fugu. Some of them are quite complex or consequential APIs.

They do not deserve a free pass for it because Mozilla once shipped one or two relative minor features before Chrome did, or Apple added some weird CSS visual property for their latest iPhones without consensus. We're talking orders of magnitude of difference here.

The problem isn't who is first to ship. It's the casual disregard for even reaching consensus on the basics before shipping something, the sheer rate of output, the interop issues left in the wake, and the anti-competitive tactics being applied. Those are not "hypotheticals" in the slightest.

What is hypothetical is acting like anyone else could just magically compete on those terms. Microsoft couldn't keep up with them. Opera couldn't. No new engine has even come close to breaking into a general market yet, though a couple are feverishly trying.

Is that really ok with us? If so, then let's just be honest. Let's just say "new APIs are more important to us than engine diversity, and we don't mind Google being as evil as possible to kill the other engines off." As a webcompat worker, I'd love to see that honesty.

Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by surajrmal on Sunday October 31, 2021 @05:16PM (#29060526)
Do you think it's abusive of Linux to offer APIs beyond what is standardized in POSIX, breaking comparability with other nix-like OS such as FreeBSD? Or is it abusive that clang constantly adds features that gcc lacks, making programs that use clang no longer compile with gcc?
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by vord1080 on Monday November 01, 2021 @01:23AM (#29063249)
average disingenuous HNer making comparisons between compilers and web browsers. Everyone involved knows Shadow DOM V0 was a rush job, as was the YouTube redesign that used it (it had major perf issues even in chrome when it came out). The standardized ShadowDOM v1 is better in every way and works in all browsers. It's pretty clear that Google wanted V0 to spread as far as possible so they could force it to become a standard, as removing it would "break the web". Shadow DOM, regardless of version, isn't critical for a product like YouTube. The "web" is only the "web" if parties involved play fair, even just a bit, otherwise it's back to IE6.
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by wisniewskit on Monday November 01, 2021 @10:56AM (#29067396)
Does Linux also happen to control a major piece of hardware pretty much everyone uses, and used it to force BSD to adopt some new driver system they wanted to prioritize, which ended up being completely different by the time the dust had settled, and held back other important advancements in the meantime?

That is, it all depends on the full context. Competition is fine, but not anti-competitive behaviour. I maintain that we have had too much of the latter from Google, and that it is only increasing as folks intentionally look the other way and try to boil arguments away to mere deflections and other apologia.

Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by Symbiote on Saturday October 30, 2021 @10:41AM (#29049118)
None of that is an accident, at a company with Google's experience and expertise with web browsers and apps.
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by the8472 on Saturday October 30, 2021 @11:59AM (#29049796)
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by Drdrdrq on Saturday October 30, 2021 @10:13AM (#29048925)
It would be interesting to profile these sites and make PRs for Firefox to fix any possible issues, then see how long it takes for Google to find new ways to make them slow again.
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by nh2 on Saturday October 30, 2021 @08:28PM (#29053451)
Unfortunately there are also non-Google websites that run slower on Firefox.

Example: Our startup's product (https://benaco.com).

WebGL is slower on Firefox (e.g. this bug on Linux: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1010527), so I use Chromium to work on it, despite using Firefox for everything else, for 19 years.

Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by floatboth on Sunday October 31, 2021 @07:10AM (#29056151)
> e.g. this bug on Linux

This is literally one of the big things changed by what's described in the article (for those still using X11; it's already been solved for quite some time on Wayland)

Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by nh2 on Sunday October 31, 2021 @08:45AM (#29056578)
Yes, this is one of the affected bugs, but do read the other bugs linked from it, e.g. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1010527#c51

> Even wirh webrender, EGL and dmabuf all enabled, performance is still not at par with chrome. Bug 1684224

which shows 5x higher FPS in Chromium than in Firefox.

There will be more to do until general parity, even past FF 94.

Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by vord1080 on Monday November 01, 2021 @01:16AM (#29063216)
Works fine on Windows. Linux only makes up 3% of Firefox users so it's no surprise they haven't prioritized it.
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by exyi on Saturday October 30, 2021 @11:08AM (#29049351)
It also seems to me. At least it motivates me to use anything which is not owned by Google :]
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by butz on Saturday October 30, 2021 @10:59AM (#29049283)
As Firefox is lagging a bit with new feature implementation, Chromium based browsers usually are using native implementation that is faster and Firefox is left using slower polyfills. And web app developers sure love using most recent web browser features and APIs.
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by cute_boi on Saturday October 30, 2021 @11:17AM (#29049447)
well most api that is not implemented in firefox has high probably of not being implemented in safari too. So I don't think web app developer should use recent web browser features and API that is available in chromium browser only. 20-30% represent a large number of users so I think devs should show more pragmatism.
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by marginalia_nu on Saturday October 30, 2021 @10:10AM (#29048899)
I think firefox has cache management problems. I got to the point where even opening an nginx test page off localhost took 1-2 seconds, but clearing the cache seems to have fixed it back to tolerable levels again.
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by lobocinza on Saturday October 30, 2021 @11:50AM (#29049727)
If you can afford, just set on disk cache to 0 and increase on memory cache. Firefox have bad defaults.
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by gtirloni on Saturday October 30, 2021 @09:22AM (#29048552)
I think Chrome/Chromium don't use hw acceleration on Linux, right?
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by Comevius on Saturday October 30, 2021 @10:09AM (#29048884)
With Chromium 95 and Nvidia 470.74 driver for me hardware acceleration is enabled for canvas, and can be enabled for rasterization. For video decode it can be enabled, but it's VA-API, which is not supported by Nvidia. Vulkan can be enabled. GpuMemoryBuffers is software only.
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by encryptluks2 on Saturday October 30, 2021 @06:14PM (#29052709)
Actually, that is one the main reasons I get better performance on Chromium is because you can use HW acceleration. I just use some of the settings documented in the Arch wiki.

Firefox isn't terrible, but there is a noticeable startup lag and I get random freezes a lot more often.

Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by fubbyy on Saturday October 30, 2021 @11:07AM (#29049347)
Have you tried vulkan? Curious if it offers any performance benefits.
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by eptcyka on Saturday October 30, 2021 @09:59AM (#29048802)
It does, if it deems your drivers good enough.
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by darthrupert on Sunday October 31, 2021 @09:12AM (#29056735)
This won't help. Firefox's latency problems seem to be deeper.
Re:Firefox 94 to start using EGL on Linux by mhd on Saturday October 30, 2021 @09:36AM (#29048635)
For a while. Wirth's Law still applies. Web developers will find further ways to mess up rendering some basic shapes and letters.