News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by carbonguy on Thursday October 28, 2021 @02:55PM (#29030029)
> If there is going to be a metaverse, I'm not sure I want Facebook to own it. It's like a bad sci-fi pulp story.

I'm confident I don't want them to own it - or for it to be owned by a single party of any kind, for that matter.

> Given their investment and research, I wonder if they should open it all up (even if contradictory to short-term gains in ad revenue) so it has a chance to grow?

I mean, that would be nice for users, but:

a) I don't think Facebook is constitutionally* able to give up ad revenue gains: what they do is maximize ad revenue, basically

b) I strongly suspect they have other means at their disposal to maximize growth. After all, every FB-IG-WA user is a Meta user now, right? How much would it cost to just send every one of them an Oculus headset for free?

And if that sounds insane, consider that this announcement is basically saying "we're betting our entire brand on this particular future" - I suspect they'll do everything in their power to make that bet succeed (or appear to succeed).

* in the sense of "this is the fundamental basis and goal of the company," not in a U.S.-founding-document sense

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by uuddlrlr on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:03PM (#29030154)
>I don't think Facebook is constitutionally able to give up ad revenue gains

This "fiduciary duty" meme really needs to die.

Seriously the idea of fiduciary duty [to maximixe profit] is dystopian, corporations don't fuck us over because they have to they do it because they can.

Edit: clarify

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by throwawaycuriou on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:19PM (#29030401)
I also blinked at that. But then took it to mean constitutionally in a pure sense - whether they can keep a strength of belief enough to follow through. Unrelated to 'The Constitution' from a US citizen's point of view. Although now I'm pondering just how misplaced and powerful our reverence of that cobbled together document is.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by MandieD on Thursday October 28, 2021 @06:03PM (#29032624)
It’s basically a peace treaty. There are things about it that I think are incredibly counterproductive to democracy (and they were designed to be so!), but I shudder at the thought of rolling the dice on scrapping or heavily re-writing it.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by thatguy0900 on Thursday October 28, 2021 @07:45PM (#29033532)
It seems like the government agencies are more than comfortable ignoring it anyway, frankly.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by carbonguy on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:57PM (#29031014)
You are correct, that is the sense that I meant it. I'll edit my comment to clarify.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by uuddlrlr on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:19PM (#29031365)
Thanks for clarifying! The constitution is pretty far from fiduciary duty legally, so I apologize for not interpreting it more charitably.

(In general the maximize profit meme does need to die tho)

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by dnautics on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:23PM (#29031413)
The "fiduciary duty meme" is exactly what GP did not mean as per their disclaimer. Constitutionally in this sense means "as a result of it's constitutive makeup", i.e., it's culture, hierarchy, incentive structures, employees, managers etc.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by sundarurfriend on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:45PM (#29031710)
> The "fiduciary duty meme" is exactly what GP did not mean as per their disclaimer

which was added thanks to your parent comment.

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by mattkrause on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:14PM (#29031301)
Indeed! It's not even really true: I did some digging in this thread. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23393674

The relevant legal standard is "Don't abuse the company for your own ends", not "you must do everything to get as much money as quickly as possible, consequences be damned!"

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by AlexandrB on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:31PM (#29030579)
It's especially dubious in Facebook's case because Mark Zuckerberg controls the majority of voting shares. If he wanted to run the company straight into the ground I doubt anyone could stop him.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by FormerBandmate on Thursday October 28, 2021 @05:20PM (#29032178)
Mark Zuckerberg could not make his salary $800 billion, or donate the entire company to charity. That’s what that means, nothing about business decisions
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by alasdair_ on Thursday October 28, 2021 @06:14PM (#29032734)
>Mark Zuckerberg could not make his salary $800 billion

This would be an interesting test case. The limits on what he can or cannot do are remarkably ill-defined.

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by nradov on Thursday October 28, 2021 @06:21PM (#29032787)
Mark Zuckerberg couldn't donate Facebook the corporation to charity, but he absolutely could donate all of his personal Facebook shares to charity. If he did that then the charity would have a controlling stake.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by threatofrain on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:26PM (#29031449)
I don't think you can sell shares to the public and then deliberately screw over your shareholders. If Zuckerberg acted terribly then he may be exposed to liability.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by munk-a on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:51PM (#29031812)
That's a question of malicious intent - if he intended to directly cause damage to specific shareholders than yea - they'd have a case. General idiocy isn't going to fall into that category though - shareholders all voluntarily bought their shares.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by anonporridge on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:13PM (#29031286)
The problem is that the "maximize profit" meme is VERY fit in the evolutionary world of memes.

Those organizations and people that adopt the meme become more powerful and choke out all those entities that don't.

You can't just choose not to pursue profits at any cost if there are ANY competing entities out there that choose to do so.

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by 6gvONxR4sf7o on Thursday October 28, 2021 @08:21PM (#29033796)
I dont buy that. Lots of other factors beat out efficiency and execution. Sure, it’ll give you a statistically better shot at doing well, but you won’t die without it.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by GauntletWizard on Thursday October 28, 2021 @11:02PM (#29034720)
Our current ecosystem is such that you either get big enough to gobble up all real competitors, or you're consigned to irrelevance.

Why that is is where the fundamental disagreement is. One of the proposed reasons is too much regulation, the other is too little. It's (in my opinion) probably both - too much poorly applied, and not enough where it's needed.

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by rvense on Friday October 29, 2021 @06:35AM (#29037059)
It is a strange phenomenon, in that it is so nonsensical, yet so ingrained and self-perpetuating in a way. I can actually agree that it qualifies as a "duty", because it's something the people who make up the corporation honestly feel morally bound to. The idea seems to have become sort of a load-bearing neurosis in the Modern Yuppie. If and when we, by some act of cultural psychiatry, remove it entirely, that's a lot of personalities that are going to just crumble, and I don't know if there are enough hiking trails in California for the finance dude(tte)s in sillycon valley set to all find themselves again...
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by wyre on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:20PM (#29030418)
They have a legal obligation to maximize shareholder profits. See Dodge v. Ford Motor Co.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by Frondo on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:34PM (#29030639)
The very article you cited disagrees! You said they have "an obligation to maximize shareholder profits" while the linked article says they have to "operate in the interests of the shareholders." Those are two very different things!

Hunt around for just a few minutes on the google search, "do corporations have a legal obligation to maximize share value," and you'll see that what you said is the myth that gets repeated -- this one link probably summarizes the argument against the myth in the most neutral way:

https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/8146/are-u-s-co...

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by likpok on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:24PM (#29030483)
Later caselaw (note that that case was from 1919) gives directors widespread latitude to decide what "benefiting the corporation" means.

The second paragraph gives two such cases: AP Smith Manufacturing Co v. Barlow and Shlensky v. Wrigley.

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by cma on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:36PM (#29030678)
This actually just makes it worse if (plausible) Zuck is a sadist.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by dragonwriter on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:37PM (#29030686)
No they don’t, except maybe in Michigan (Dodge v. Ford is a Michigan Supreme Court ruling from 1919, applying Michigan state law; as your own article states: “In the 1950s and 1960s, states rejected Dodge repeatedly”, so assuming that Dodge v. Ford represents anything other than a quirk of Michigan law [and potentially an outdated one even there] is...unfounded on the evidence you have provided.)
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by mattkrause on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:34PM (#29031548)
Dodge v. Ford was basically a perfect storm of saying just the wrong amount.

To summarize the case, Ford was sitting on a huge amount of cash. Some shareholders, in particular the Dodge brothers, wanted it paid out as dividends. Ford said no, and specifically:

"My ambition is to employ still more men, to spread the benefits of this industrial system to the greatest possible number, to help them build up their lives and their homes"

Had he said less, or even nothing, that would have been fine. Management is entitled to make whatever business-related decisions they see fit (the "business judgement" rule). If the Dodges disagree with those decisions, they can sell their shares and reinvest the money elsewhere.

Had Ford said more "...and we think doing so will grow the market for our cars", "help us retain our skilled and motivated workforce" or something else vaguely related to success of Ford Motor Company, that also would have been fine.

Unfortunately, what Ford said fell into a gap where it was clear that what he was doing was not a business decision; he was using the shareholders' money for his own personal ends, charitable though they may be. Shlensky v. Wrigley is an interesting comparison. The Cubs refused to have night baseball games due to some...idiosyncratic beliefs about the "true nature" of the sport. This reduced their potential profits, but was nevertheless okay because chasing after the "purists" OR going for mass-market appeal are both reasonable business decisions.

(This is not my argument; it's made in this article: https://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/fss_papers/1384/)

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by 6gvONxR4sf7o on Thursday October 28, 2021 @08:23PM (#29033805)
Even then, you could say what he said today and be fine, as I understand it.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by mannerheim on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:29PM (#29030552)
They have a legal obligation to maximise shareholder value, but what that entails courts will generally leave up to the discretion of the company's executives. In fact, the very first paragraph says precisely that:

> At the same time, the case affirmed the business judgment rule

What is the business judgement rule?

> The business judgment rule is a case law-derived doctrine in corporations law that courts defer to the business judgment of corporate executives.

In other words, if the CEO of a company says that he did something because e.g. he believed it was better for the long-term health of the company, the court will generally take his word for it, barring evidence of deliberate malfeasance.

What one cannot do is as Ford did, which was to deliberately try and hurt other shareholders.

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by wyre on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:05PM (#29031163)
Thanks! I understand it now.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by cbtacy on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:17PM (#29030355)
> How much would it cost to just send every one of them an Oculus headset for free?

That's the wrong question.

The right question is "how many FB users would accept a free headset that advertisers paid for in exchange for access to your data and exclusive rights to place ads in front of you?"

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by srveale on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:29PM (#29030545)
We can answer this by looking at how many facebook users are okay (implicitly) with using facebook in exchange for access to their data and exclusive rights to place ads right in front of them. The answer is 100%
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by TheOtherHobbes on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:43PM (#29030780)
There's a world of difference between sharing cat/dinner/vacation photos with friends and family and living in some kind of fantasy animated cartoon world.

The social dynamics are completely different. Second Life showed that very clearly.

The three biggest things in Second Life were fantasy consumerism, fantasy entrepreneurship, and fantasy sex.

Unless FB is getting into those markets it's going to find the metaverse a tough sell.

Not least because the whole point of fantasy is that it's not really you. So that immediately conflicts with FB's only-real-identities dogma.

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by mftb on Thursday October 28, 2021 @10:42PM (#29034601)
FB is already in those markets. FB and Instagram are every bit as much fantasy land as Second Life. I agree with you that the social dynamics are different.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by FormerBandmate on Thursday October 28, 2021 @05:22PM (#29032202)
I would highly doubt 100% of Facebook users would want to use virtual reality. Out of those who would tho, it would be pretty high, I doubt many Facebook users would buy HP Reverbs after that. Not worth the absurd cost tho
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by sircastor on Thursday October 28, 2021 @10:47PM (#29034632)
The trouble I have is that the cost for using the system is the same as if you try to buy your own Facebook-free headset. The advertisers still demand all your info and demand to be able to sell to you.

I feel like we’re all hoping that there will be a VR version of the early web, free and open, and mostly just neat things to connect with or about. I worry there is increasingly no chance of that.

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by mepiethree on Thursday October 28, 2021 @10:57PM (#29034693)
Isn’t that what the state of VR has been for the past decade? I used an Oculus for the first time in 2013 and it was exactly that feeling of exploration and joy
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by mandevil on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:51PM (#29030915)
Counterpoint: the HTC First (aka the Facebook Phone) was >$1 USD less than a month after it debuted, and still was a gigantic flop. Facebook Portal has sold ~1 million units. Oculus has sold ~8 million units or so (all numbers based on quick googling, might be wrong). So people reject Facebook hardware all the time, and they don't actually have that much in the way of hits in the HW space.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by perryizgr8 on Thursday October 28, 2021 @10:17PM (#29034440)
The phone is a bad example. It was a shitty phone. There was absolutely no advantage to using it.

On the other hand, oculus is state of the art in virtual reality. I don't know if any other hardware or ecosystem as well developed as theirs is.

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by FormerBandmate on Thursday October 28, 2021 @05:21PM (#29032195)
It was $1 on a two-year contract. It was also a bad phone. That really doesn’t say much
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by Apocryphon on Thursday October 28, 2021 @05:45PM (#29032448)
It says that they’re lacking in the hardware department.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by kroltan on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:36PM (#29030663)
No, that question is wrong, because that answer rounds up to 100%.

Maybe a vocal minority like us HN-folk, but I don't think that by ourselves we really matter in terms of numbers.

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by cbtacy on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:39PM (#29030717)
Exactly. You could assume that it's likely that something like 2.75B (out of the est 2.89B) FB users would happily wear (free) physical spyware in this scenario.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by mepiethree on Thursday October 28, 2021 @11:01PM (#29034714)
My wife put on an Oculus Quest and threw up within 5 minutes from simulator sickness. In this case, I think the average HN-Folk is _more_ likely to be interested in VR than the average person
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by kroltan on Monday November 08, 2021 @09:20AM (#29149521)
My late step-mother put on an Oculus Go and played basically every rollercoaster simulator available on the device back-to-back.

It was like the Matrix scene where Neo was learning, then leaves the simulation and says "I know Kung Fu".

She used computers for social media and looking up recipes, so not very savvy at all. I don't think there's a correlation between interest in VR and technicality. Maybe between _vocal_ interest in VR and technicality.

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by jrochkind1 on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:26PM (#29030508)
At this point I'm confident I don't want there to be "a metaverse" at all, because under our current social and cultural systems, I am confident it will be very very bad no matter who owns it.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by bsenftner on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:36PM (#29030672)
This is the sad reality. Our society is simply not structured to protect the end-users of any such service in any meaningful way. Our political and ethical leaders are simply too embedded with selfish interests. The Metaverse will be a fleece the customer engine, with the rate and manner it is developing.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by prawn on Friday October 29, 2021 @02:37AM (#29035855)
So, pretty similar to life now for many people? :|
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by FormerBandmate on Thursday October 28, 2021 @05:23PM (#29032208)
The internet exists under our current systems and, although there are parts of it that suck, it’s dope
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by jrochkind1 on Thursday October 28, 2021 @06:28PM (#29032844)
So I might have a less optimistic analysis of the plus/minus of the internet, but more importantly, I think it was created under very different circumstances, in it's birth-years, by actors with different interests, values, and goals -- than the "metaverse" will be. The metaverse will be much worse.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by baby on Thursday October 28, 2021 @06:55PM (#29033096)
You mean it was created by the army?
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by jrochkind1 on Thursday October 28, 2021 @07:37PM (#29033462)
No, that's not what I mean.

The internet network and it's forbears was funded largely by the US DoD (not the army specifically I don't think?) (and as a huge portion of academic computer science continues to be, btw), but most of the people involved in creating the internet and the things built on top of it, technologically and socially, including those allocating significant material resources to it's development, were not in fact military personnel (let alone in the army specifically?).

What I meant is that the people involved in building it were focused on things other than making money. (This may be hard to believe, that any human endeavor can take place except motivated by extreme profits, but it's the case). They were also not, by and large on the whole, especially motivated by military advantage, although some may have been, including some of the funders. But it was not in fact, largely, built as a national-security-focused or military/militarized network (sure, subsets of it were, there was a MILNET; it was a part of ARPANET and later separated from it, which shows that it was not the whole); nor was it built originally as a giant surveillance system for the purposes of commerce and profit (or law enforcement).

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by ilrwbwrkhv on Friday October 29, 2021 @10:35AM (#29038925)
The internet was built by hackers. The metaverse will be built by salespeople.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by CincinnatiMan on Thursday October 28, 2021 @07:26PM (#29033370)
Context clues lead me to believe the person you're replying to probably means more of the people who created the early world wide web (nerdy tech folks), and less so the people who created the technical pieces of the internet.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by bitwize on Thursday October 28, 2021 @07:38PM (#29033466)
Our current systems have made me seriously consider the need for a real-life Butlerian jihad under which all computer technology would be banned, because humans simply aren't ready for computers yet.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by prirai on Thursday October 28, 2021 @10:23PM (#29034478)
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by thEiAoLoGy on Friday October 29, 2021 @02:38AM (#29035865)
The internet is the metaverse. We’re just trying to add a VR veneer to it.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by elil17 on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:11PM (#29030270)
As to point B, they don’t even need to send one to all users - just the ones they think will be cash cows for advertisers. Everyone with a income and behavior pattern that makes them a super valuable ad demographic (say, 5% or even 1% of users) gets one for free while the rest of us pay our way on.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by carbonguy on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:21PM (#29031379)
This is an extremely interesting idea - I wonder if they'll start some kind of "invitation beta" for this fraction of users you describe.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by thrwyoilarticle on Thursday October 28, 2021 @06:38PM (#29032931)
My outsider understanding of advertising is that the most valuable marks are the richest. So the PR might kill that.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by alasdair_ on Thursday October 28, 2021 @06:12PM (#29032705)
>b) How much would it cost to just send every one of them an Oculus headset for free?

$300 * 3 billion people, so $900 Billion give or take which coincidentally is right around the market cap of the entire company.

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by swyx on Thursday October 28, 2021 @06:41PM (#29032962)
retail price != manufacturing price, so say just 2-300 bil
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by usrusr on Friday October 29, 2021 @12:49AM (#29035273)
Freak spikes in demand cause freak spikes in supplier parts prices. Manufacturing volumes of complex goods are quite inelastic. Burst manufacturing price would likely be much higher than steady flow retail prices, not lower. Zuckerberg would basically have to redirect humanities entire smartphone manufacturing capacity for multiple years. Including the part that usually ends up sporting some fruit brand, this wouldn't be cheap at all.
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by akelly on Thursday October 28, 2021 @07:24PM (#29033362)
Facebook isn't making any money selling headsets at $300
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by adventured on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:06PM (#29030201)
> How much would it cost to just send every one of them an Oculus headset for free?

$200+ billion. They can't afford it. They couldn't get the manufacturing for it, either.

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by carbonguy on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:23PM (#29031417)
> They couldn't get the manufacturing for it, either.

A very good point. I think the financing would be less of an issue, honestly; $200 billion a lot of cash up front, but spread out over five or ten years it's well within their FCF if they wanted to allocate it that way.

EDIT: As another comment pointed out, FB might also be able to convince advertisers to subsidize some (or all) of the costs of "free" headsets for the masses, if they wanted to try this scheme.

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by ben_w on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:44PM (#29030807)
> How much would it cost to just send every one of them an Oculus headset for free?

About 0.6-1 trillion dollars, give or take.

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by Tenoke on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:06PM (#29031177)
>How much would it cost to just send every one of them an Oculus headset for free?

20-50 times what they earn per user.

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by carbonguy on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:35PM (#29031563)
I doubt it's THAT high a multiple - in 2020 they earned just over $32 per user [1] and an Oculus Quest 2 retails for $299; one assumes the manufacturing cost is lower, meaning the multiple is likely 9x or less.

Of course, the essence of your point is true: Facebook doesn't make as much per year per user on average as a headset costs.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/234056/facebooks-average...

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by Tenoke on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:44PM (#29031698)
This is revenue and not profit and I've seen a lot of articles claiming that they are almost definitely selling headsets at a cost already[0]. Point stands either way for giving them free and selling at a cost is just a lesser version of that at any rate.

0. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pcgamer.com/amp/oculus-will...,

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by ipaddr on Thursday October 28, 2021 @11:22PM (#29034823)
How much would it cost to just send every one of them an Oculus headset for free?

3 billion fb users x 100 per unit = 300 billion

A letter to everyone would cost 3 billion

Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by Impossible on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:04PM (#29030166)
For b) assuming each Quest costs Meta around $400, and they are sending to 1B users, $400B, so about half their market cap and 10x yearly revenue :).
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by wlesieutre on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:06PM (#29030197)
They sell the Quest for $200, do you really think they're losing another $200 on each unit?
Re:Facebook Renames to Meta by Impossible on Friday October 29, 2021 @04:58PM (#29043453)
They are sold at a loss or at best at cost. $200 is possibly extreme, but I couldn't find a BOM estimate for Quest, so it could be much higher than that. This isn't unusual, most game consoles are sold at a loss initially. Also, even though I said "Quest" in my first post I meant "Quest 2" as the original Quest is being phased slowly out, and Quest 2 has sold significantly more units. The current retail price of the 128 GB model is $299, and 256 GB model is $399. So if you're bothered by my price difference assume I was talking about Quest 2 256 GB sold at cost. Regardless, it would cost them more than they want to spend. If you watched the keynote yesterday, Mark Zuckerberg specifically mentioned not wanting to lose too much money on hardware while still selling it at the lowest price that makes sense... Giving away hardware for free is the complete opposite of that strategy.