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Re:Starship is still not understood by prox on Thursday October 28, 2021 @10:22AM (#29026465)
This would be true perhaps if this wasn’t SpaceX. They already moved the goalpost with Falcon

And I don’t think the author wrote what you said. His main point was that not one of NASA’s powerpoints even as much acknowledges that something like Starship might come round. The new constraints by Starship are a game changer.

Re:Starship is still not understood by ncallaway on Thursday October 28, 2021 @11:13AM (#29027064)
> His main point was that not one of NASA’s powerpoints even as much acknowledges that something like Starship might come round

That's just not true, though. NASA awarded the HLS program solely to SpaceX as a Starship lander. The Source Selection Statement of that program (https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/option-...) discusses the benefits and drawbacks of Starship in good detail.

It seems wild to claim that NASA doesn't acknowledge that Starship might come around, when they're paying SpaceX specifically for the Starship program, for moon landings with Starship in 2024 (I think we all know that date will slip, but that's the official plan).

Re:Starship is still not understood by TeMPOraL on Thursday October 28, 2021 @01:37PM (#29028735)
Author mentions HLS contract, but their argument is that it's not taking any advantage of economies offered by Starship. It's like a 10th century trader took an offer to use modern long-haul trucks at a fraction of what they pay for horse and cart transport, but failed to update the business to take advantage of the improved range, speed, reliability and cargo capacity.

The argument is potent particularly because space mission architectures are designed primarily around constraints of the space launch systems, so choosing Starship as the launch vehicle seems to merit a large expansion in scope, if not total redesign of the program.

Re:Starship is still not understood by ARandumGuy on Thursday October 28, 2021 @10:40AM (#29026642)
Past success does not guarantee future success. And when you're dealing with space travel, which is inherently expensive and extremely dangerous, then you can't afford to buy into any hype.
Re:Starship is still not understood by panick21_ on Thursday October 28, 2021 @10:45AM (#29026694)
If it was just 'hype' why did NASA select them for HLS?

They had all the data and they officially declared it was very doable and that SpaceX had a path to get there.

So its ok to plan for it but pretend it only exists for that one thing they contracted if for, and ignore if for everything else.

Re:Starship is still not understood by ncallaway on Thursday October 28, 2021 @11:51AM (#29027483)
> So its ok to plan for it but pretend it only exists for that one thing they contracted if for, and ignore if for everything else.

No one here is saying "NASA should ignore Starship for everything else".

I'm saying that NASA isn't "failing to understand" Starship when they don't push all their chips to the middle of the table on Starship. You can't use the fact that NASA was willing to make a $2.9B bet on Starship as evidence that they should have been willing to go all-in on Starship.

It'd be like saying if you wager me $1,000 on an outcome, then you should also be willing to bet your house on it. That's not how risk works!

Would I personally like to see NASA continue to evaluate and select Starship for future programs? Yes!

Would I personally like to see NASA start kick off early concept-phase work for payloads that would be enabled by Starship? Yes!

Do I think that NASA decided not to completely re-orient everything that they do around Starship right now means they don't understand Starship? No! Of course not! It means there's too much risk right now around doing that.

Re:Starship is still not understood by panick21_ on Thursday October 28, 2021 @12:20PM (#29027804)
The point is that you have to start to think differently.

Not just have the same circle of programs, selecting a launcher and on.

You need to fundamentally rethink how you approach space.

And there is little evidence of that happening, specially from a leadership standpoint.

Re:Starship is still not understood by ncallaway on Thursday October 28, 2021 @01:09PM (#29028392)
Sure. And my point is that, for an organization like NASA (which is basically our government's "approach to space") "fundamentally rethinking how you approach space" is basically saying: "fundamentally transform everything about how the organization operates".

Which, if Starship delivers on its promises (and I'm quite optimistic and hopeful that it will!), then NASA will have to fundamentally transform everything about how the organization operates.

But that's a huge transition to make on the back of a program that hasn't proven its key value proposition yet. I'm happy for NASA to wait the extra 2-3 years for Starship to prove that it can deliver on its promises, before NASA commits to a reorganization and restructuring at such a fundamental level.

If NASA commits to such a restructuring now, and in 2 years we learn that Starship's economic dream fails to materialize and the program ends up as an improvement (but an ordinary one) over Falcon 9. NASA how has to unwind all of that organization restructuring and program development. It seems...wise to me for NASA to wait a handful of years to see Starship prove itself before committing to such a transition.

Re:Starship is still not understood by TeMPOraL on Thursday October 28, 2021 @01:42PM (#29028815)
> But that's a huge transition to make on the back of a program that hasn't proven its key value proposition yet.

The article agrees! Author's point, as I read it, is that if NASA does not plan for the transition now, then by the time Starship "has proven its key value proposition", both NASA and its usual contractors will be out of the game, as a new breed of private companies takes over most of space activity. The author doesn't expect NASA to bet on Starship, but rather to at least make some internal noises and initial movements towards that transition - but he failed to find any indication of that for the past 2 years.

Re:Starship is still not understood by prox on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:42PM (#29031668)
Exactly, the could keep a small budget aside already to do feasibility studies, along the lines of “instead of 50T a year, what and how do we approach the ability to shift 100,200T etc, to the moon?”
Re:Starship is still not understood by panick21_ on Thursday October 28, 2021 @02:18PM (#29029326)
> "fundamentally transform everything about how the organization operates".

Its more about starting to thinking on how to do that. And initiate some trail projects that take a different approach.

At the moment, in most parts of NASA its simply ignored. That Starship launch system got funded is more of an accidental byproduct of the HLS.

Re:Starship is still not understood by JulianMorrison on Thursday October 28, 2021 @10:52AM (#29026778)
If they were trying something genuinely new - like falling out of orbit and making a propulsive upright landing of a wingless booster - then some skepticism would be justified.

But what's new in Starship?

Re:Starship is still not understood by modeless on Thursday October 28, 2021 @12:18PM (#29027782)
Nitpick: the booster does not achieve orbit. If it did it would need a heat shield like the upper stage.

What's new in Starship? Rapid turnaround. Catching the returning rocket with the launch tower. A durable heat shield that needs zero refurbishment for back-to-back flights. The sheer number of engines on the first stage and the volume of engine production needed for that. Orbital refueling. The landing flip maneuver.

There is a lot of new stuff in Starship, and not all of it is proven yet. Personally I think the biggest remaining risk is the heat shield. I'm no expert, but my speculation is that there will be several reentry failures, and refurbishment will limit turnaround speed for a long time. I've also heard a lot of people saying that orbital refueling will be very difficult. I'm also worried that landing failures will wreck the ground support equipment. And I think it's very unlikely that the reliability of the whole system can ever be good enough for the airliner-like earth-to-earth passenger service that SpaceX has proposed.

All that said, I'm very much in agreement with the article that NASA needs to radically change their future plans, because while Starship is not completely proven, it is clearly derisked to the point where it's going to be revolutionary, even if some of the above risks prevent the total potential from being realized. HLS was the first time NASA showed that they realize this, but they are still doing tons of stuff outside HLS that makes little sense in a Starship world.

Re:Starship is still not understood by ncmncm on Thursday October 28, 2021 @11:42PM (#29034913)
Rapid turnaround is not demonstrated. Nor is it even, in fact, planned, in any real sense. I.e., to be clear, there is no evidence that they have any idea how to achieve rapid turnaround of a Starship orbiter.

(Superheavy is a different story.)

All this turns on the design of the heat-shield tiles. Those we have seen are basically the same as on the shuttle. Each individual tile needs a great deal of personal attention before and after each use, including squirting in some goo that will boil off on the next flight. Many will need to be replaced, each flight.

So, turn-around time is weeks, minimum. More probably a month or two, or three.

It is conceivable that a future version of Starship will have a heat shield that needs less attention. Maybe a fabric shroud in place of tiles, over most of the hull, will turn out to be practical. If that happens, it might get possible to turn around a re-entered Starship faster. But that will require entirely new development not obviously begun.

I will be happy to be proved wrong.

Despite all of the above, even without quick turnaround or even re-usability, Starship is obviously overwhelmingly superior in every conceivable way to Artemis/Ares. NASA has the unenviable chore of trying to unload that turkey on some commercial contractor to get out from under the obligation to pour ever more treasure down its gaping maw, endlessly. If NASA succeeds in selling it at a penny on the dollar to Marietta, and leaving Marietta to try to find someone, anyone willing to pay for even a single hull, we can all breathe a sigh of relief.

Re:Starship is still not understood by modeless on Friday October 29, 2021 @03:50AM (#29036251)
I don't think that the heat shield is the same as the shuttle's. The tiles are tougher and attached in a different way, and the underlying steel structure can stand more heat than the shuttle's aluminum could.

Orbital refueling is required for HLS and depends on rapid turnaround so SpaceX and NASA must have some confidence that it can be achieved without a radical redesign.

Re:Starship is still not understood by ncmncm on Friday October 29, 2021 @11:25AM (#29039588)
There are differences from the shuttle's tiles, but they are much more similar than different.

Rapid turnaround seems at this stage more an aspiration than a designed feature. It was the same with the shuttle. In that case it was never achieved at all, even with decades of experience.

Turnaround and reuse are desirable, particularly to minimize cost, but not strictly necessary for a successful mission.

Re:Starship is still not understood by maccam94 on Friday October 29, 2021 @06:01AM (#29036917)
The tiles on Starship are much more uniform than on the Space Shuttle, so they are cheaper to produce and less complex to replace.
Re:Starship is still not understood by ncmncm on Friday October 29, 2021 @11:20AM (#29039518)
That mainly affects cost, not turnaround time. And there are anyway many unique tiles, particularly around fins and on the nose cone.
Re:Starship is still not understood by prox on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:44PM (#29031694)
Even for some reason Starship can not return in its early development, it still triumphs SLS by a wide, wide margin.
Re:Starship is still not understood by ceejayoz on Thursday October 28, 2021 @10:58AM (#29026863)
Propulsive landing of an orbital stage is pretty new.

(You can make an argument for Soyuz's just-before-landing rockets, but it wouldn't be a fair one.)

Re:Starship is still not understood by JulianMorrison on Thursday October 28, 2021 @10:59AM (#29026875)
Okay, I'll grant you that. Not a huge step from what they already do, but it is a step.
Re:Starship is still not understood by vanattab on Thursday October 28, 2021 @11:19AM (#29027135)
Orbital flight vs suborbital flight is a bigger step then you might think. For orbital flights the vehicle is traveling at least 28,000 km/h where as to reach 125 miles above Earth, a suborbital vehicle only needs 6,000 km/h. This can dramatically effect the survivability on reentry. Orbital and sub orbital flights are very different.
Re:Starship is still not understood by macintux on Thursday October 28, 2021 @11:14AM (#29027078)
Given the uncertainty around heat tiles (and the impact on rapid turnaround) plus the sheer size of the rocket, it seems like a huge step to this ignorant observer.
Re:Starship is still not understood by Dylan16807 on Thursday October 28, 2021 @01:24PM (#29028570)
> Propulsive landing of an orbital stage is pretty new.

It is, but those are largely separate features. Each half of that combo has been done, and combining them doesn't cause any massive engineering conflicts.

Re:Starship is still not understood by macintux on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:04PM (#29030163)
No one has, to my knowledge, de-orbited a spacecraft ready to launch again immediately, which is where Musk thinks Starship is headed. That’s a big jump.
Re:Starship is still not understood by Dylan16807 on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:05PM (#29030187)
That is, yes, but jumping that hurdle doesn't really matter if the landing is propulsive or not.
Re:Starship is still not understood by ncallaway on Thursday October 28, 2021 @11:16AM (#29027089)
> But what's new in Starship?

The planned recovery mechanism (the aerodynamic fall, with a very late righting maneuver and landing) is still quite new. They've successfully tested it once (which is great!), but the Starship concept really hinges on that being an extremely high reliability maneuver.

I would argue that, until SpaceX can demonstrate that landing maneuver is high reliability, that the Starship concept isn't proven.

I say this as a massive fan of Starship, and someone who is extremely excited by the promises of Starship of they come to fruition.

Re:Starship is still not understood by humanwhosits on Thursday October 28, 2021 @02:54PM (#29029988)
They can take the mass penalty of performing a large re-entry burn to reduce heat-load and land falcon9-style. It would mean _much_ less mass to orbit, but the cost savings of reusing the vehicles would still be there.
Re:Starship is still not understood by JulianMorrison on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:27PM (#29030519)
Except that one of the Starship's big new things is refuelling in orbit.