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Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by 1cvmask on Monday October 25, 2021 @04:57PM (#28993029)
The last paragraph from the article regarding John Gilmore:

He's widely credited as the source of the famous aphorism "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it."

-

The EFF has routed around John Gilmore now.

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by anyonecancode on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:45PM (#28993542)
A nuance I see missing from the censorship/free speech dichotomy is around what's essentially DDOSing of speech. I think that the free-est speech has something equivalent to the voting idea of "one person, one vote." No one should be silenced, but also everyone should have equal representation.

In the same way that being very rich generally gives you effectively much more power than having a single vote, and so is a corruption of democracy, I think we see a similar thing with online discourse, where those with extra resources are able to essentially "flood the zone" and dominate the discourse.

So the question is what should be the effective response? Those pushing the censorship/free speech framing argue that removing voices is wrong -- banning, deplatforming, etc. That may be right, but it's also incomplete as it doesn't address the dynamic of the well-resourced voices overwhelming everyone else.

I don't know what an effective solution _is_ here, but I know what it _looks_ like -- all voices with equal access. I don't think the censorship/freedom framing gets us there.

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by gary_0 on Monday October 25, 2021 @09:20PM (#28995299)
This is basically one of the oldest problems on the Net, spam, back to haunt us. We got complacent, sitting back while Google filtered the junk out of our search results and inboxes. But who watches the watchmen? Now, v1agra ads and Serdar Argic[0] have evolved under our noses into camouflaged and effective predators glutted on endless Eternal September fodder.

Now that the Net has devolved into a political battlefield, how do you draw the line between a censorship regime and a spam filter? Was there ever a difference?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdar_Argic

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by anyonecancode on Monday October 25, 2021 @10:02PM (#28995600)
That's really interesting! When I first saw your comment I thought to myself "well sure, spam is kind of like this, but that's more about commercial/marketing," and on clicking the link and learning about Serdar Argic, I see that, actually, the first big spam incident was actually political trolling. Did not know that history.
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by concinds on Monday October 25, 2021 @06:29PM (#28993987)
> So the question is what should be the effective response? Those pushing the censorship/free speech framing argue that removing voices is wrong -- banning, deplatforming, etc. That may be right, but it's also incomplete as it doesn't address the dynamic of the well-resourced voices overwhelming everyone else.

It's a good point, but the loud voices that have been driving this "anti-free speech" shift are also a loud minority. The people who got Alex Jones banned everywhere, got YouTube to start demonetising videos, got Trump banned from Twitter, were essentially a small group of influential Twitter users (some of whom also had jobs in the media, giving them huge platforms to put pressure on these companies). It's a "natural law" of human societies that the 1% are disproportionately loud, on any issue, and drive what the other 99% hear and think; not just a feature of online spaces. When you think of a liberal, or a conservative, or a college student, for example, whatever you picture in your head is just the loudest, most visible portion of that group, but is likely a tiny minority of that group. Whatever opinion you have on science, or nutrition, is driven by a very tiny loud minority, whether that's lobbyists, or a few influential individuals (maybe Neil deGrasse Tyson, maybe Al Gore, maybe a prominent scientist, or maybe the Coca Cola company). Without them, the popular mind might think quite differently.

Ergo; the "censorship shift" isn't about giving the minority their voice, it's two warring minorities struggling for control of the Overton window.

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by edmundsauto on Monday October 25, 2021 @07:28PM (#28994514)
> the loud voices that have been driving this "anti-free speech" shift are also a loud minority. The people who got Alex Jones banned everywhere, got YouTube to start demonetising videos, got Trump banned from Twitter, were essentially a small group of influential Twitter users

I had to laugh - this could easily describe Alex Jones and Trump as the proximate cause of their own bans.

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by junon on Monday October 25, 2021 @08:17PM (#28994955)
Now you're getting the idea!
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by shadowgovt on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:50PM (#28993586)
This is the key ingredient missing from most online fora that is not missing in most face-to-face fora and the actual halls of government (well, most of them): equal time.

In a public physical venue, it's much easier to allocate one person, one time slice to present their views. There are exceptions (lobbying is a huge hack on this, and indeed, there's a reason many see lobbying as anti-democratic). But in contrast: online speech is dominated by whoever has either the most leisure time to toss at an online forum or the willingness and resources to sock-puppet up and turn their one voice into an echoing hydra. Factor in state spending on those hydras and the situation turns pretty un-democratic pretty fast.

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by phoneperson on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @01:29AM (#28996723)
Differrnt people repeating the same thing over and over without addressing or acknowledging arguments from the other side still results in a ddos.
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by xhkkffbf on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:10PM (#28993173)
While I don't know anything about the board's decision, I think someone who is anti-censorship would be out of favor with a Silicon Valley world that increasingly believes in censoring anything someone (in power) considers "misinformation." This is a big, big change from the early days of the Internet when people believed in free flowing information.

John's attitude is so old school. Shaping the attitude of the populace through selective amplification is now.

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by FabHK on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:06PM (#28993136)
a) That's not the last paragraph, but the antepenultimate.

b) As far as I can tell, Gilmore was not trying to censor anyone. It seems more like the EFF has put Gilmore on the other side of their firewall.

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by dredmorbius on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:18PM (#28993265)
The reading I take is that Gilmore opposed censorship, and presumably was impeding actions of the EFF which might be interpreted as same, effectively exercising power through veto (see Francis Fukuyama's concept of a "vetocracy", and note that I'm not familiar enough with EFF's governance to know specifically what veto or obstruction powers exist).

The irony is that the EFF routed around Gilmore's presumed obstruction.

For the record, I'm increasingly of the view that free-speech absolutism is very badly flawed. If my reading of the situation is correct, then I'd agree with the action. That said, I'm as much in the dark as anyone whose information is the Register piece itself, so don't read too much into what I'm saying.

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by chrismcb on Monday October 25, 2021 @07:43PM (#28994663)
Why do you think free speech absolutism is very badly flawed?
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by dredmorbius on Monday October 25, 2021 @08:04PM (#28994855)
For the same reason (virtually?) all absolutism is: it backs itself into a corner from which there is no escape. It discards any pragmatism or nuance.

What I'm evolving toward is a sense of interrelated, and often opposing, rights and obligations around communications.

Free expression, a right to truth, privacy in general, though some obligation for disclosure in public interest or concern, freedoms of and from association or expression, among others.

The benefit to this is that it gives a unified scope for looking at what have been a set of distinct and discrete rights. The disadvantage is that there's no simple or clear guidance, only trade-offs. Though (another benefit) at least those trade-offs are made clear, explicit, and the relationships are established.

I've found a few others thinking along similar lines, with some work out of the Berkman Klein Center (at Harvard) and UC Berkeley, the latter specifically addressing a right to the truth. I can dig up specific names if requested.

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by porknubbins on Monday October 25, 2021 @10:20PM (#28995702)
Just by saying “absolutism is bad” your post doesn’t explain why you are against free speech. The problem with anything but a simple rule for free speech (with obvious exceptions for threats, malicious lies, danger etc) is that it becomes a litigation, which is often a power struggle about who can manipulate the rules best, or a political struggle where one group captures the means of adjudicating speech.
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by dredmorbius on Monday October 25, 2021 @11:00PM (#28995933)
But it is a power struggle and always has been.

The very earliest advocates for free speech, most notably Milton, excluded established powers from its protections, notably the Catholic Church:

I mean not tolerated popery, and open superstition, which, as it extirpates all religions and civil supremacies, so itself should be extirpate, provided first that all charitable and compassionate means be used to win and regain the weak and the misled.

-- John Milton, Areopagitica, 1644.

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by hpoe on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:15PM (#28993233)
Well I found my new favorite word of the week antepenultimate. Thanks FabHK.
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by SahAssar on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:16PM (#28993242)
Honest question: why use words like "antepenultimate" that are not in common use and don't convey any more meaning than a more common form (like third-last)?
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by dredmorbius on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:19PM (#28993276)
Language, like programming skill or physical muscles, develops under use. Failure to extend beyond quotidian usage and trepidation over sesquipedalian terms will result in atrophy.

Someone probably learned a new word today here. Or was reminded of an unfamiliar one.

And yes, there's virtue as well in clarity. Sometimes that comes from precision.

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by shadowgovt on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:52PM (#28993606)
Of course, like programming, there's also something to be said for adhering to readability guidelines. ;)
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by drewcoo on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:58PM (#28993652)
It was easy enough to suss out the meaning based on context.

// No comments needed to explain this one!

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by catskul2 on Monday October 25, 2021 @07:01PM (#28994266)
But it wasn't more precise.
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by BuildTheRobots on Monday October 25, 2021 @07:53PM (#28994751)
Antepenultimate is actually in more common use than third last!

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=antepenultimat...

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by AlbertCory on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:23PM (#28993317)
Personally, I like fun words like that, much more than pretentious words like "access" and "empower." YMMV.
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by FabHK on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:35PM (#28993432)
Good question. While I enjoy witty or even flamboyant writing, there is plenty of writing that is hard to understand on purpose, and I despise that (postmodern French philosophers come to mind). It seems here I've used a word that is less common and more distracting than I had thought (though it seems some people enjoyed it).
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by xiphias2 on Monday October 25, 2021 @06:52PM (#28994181)
As a person who has English as a second language (not the only one on HN) I'm interested in what is your second language, and if you have the knowledge of so rare words in your second language.

We're here because the same sophisticated discussions in new technologies don't happen in our language. Please make what you write accessible to us as well.

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by gumby on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:45PM (#28993530)
Antepenultimate is perfectly clear while an uncommon phrase like “third-last” is ambiguous, prone to possible fence post error: is it the first of two before the final sentence or third from last (a reasonable interpretation in UK and Australia, at least) which would mean it would be followed by three sentences.
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by maw on Monday October 25, 2021 @06:25PM (#28993943)
Maybe you grew up speaking a language where penultimate and antepenultimate's cognates are in common use, like Spanish.

I still remember hearing a Mexican friend whose English was, at the time, very basic use the word "polemical" and I could hardly believe it. I'm not sure most English speakers could use it correctly; I'm all but certain that I at the time couldn't.

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by samdg on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:37PM (#28993453)
Just look at the sibling replies to see how delightful this new word is to some other folks here!

Sometimes using a word outside the register [0] or literary style is just a way to include a nice lexical nugget.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_(sociolinguistics)

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by klyrs on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:22PM (#28993307)
Because people are encouraged to look up and learn a new word!
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by WalterBright on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:28PM (#28993371)
Because adhering to a 6th grade vocabulary is tedious.
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by azornathogron on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:28PM (#28993368)
If people never used rare words or poetic turns of phrase, then communication would just be unbearably dull.
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by quotemstr on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @07:54AM (#28999220)
It's a class signifier. It informs readers that the person using the word is smart and therefore his opinion should be respected.

It's the same reason a doctor might use words like "etiology" instead of "cause".

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by brandonmenc on Monday October 25, 2021 @06:08PM (#28993745)
Because we're not writing instruction manuals here.
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by dang-guefever on Monday October 25, 2021 @09:15PM (#28995274)
After all, what justification is there for a word which is simply the opposite of some other word? A word contains its opposite in itself. Take ‘good’, for instance. If you have a word like ‘good’, what need is there for a word like ‘bad’? ‘Ungood’ will do just as well—better, because it’s an exact opposite, which the other is not. Or again, if you want a stronger version of ‘good’, what sense is there in having a whole string of vague useless words like ‘excellent’ and ‘splendid’ and all the rest of them? ‘Plusgood’ covers the meaning, or ‘doubleplusgood’ if you want something stronger still.
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by webmaven on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @01:48AM (#28996839)
> After all, what justification is there for a word which is simply the opposite of some other word? A word contains its opposite in itself. Take ‘good’, for instance. If you have a word like ‘good’, what need is there for a word like ‘bad’? ‘Ungood’ will do just as well—better, because it’s an exact opposite, which the other is not.

Aside from the 1984 reference (which is appreciated), the fact is that hanging a negative prefix (or suffix) on an adjective doesn't actually capture the meaning of the antonym. Or if it is defined to be equivalent, then you're missing out on various useful shades of meaning. Consider the uses of the phrases 'not good', 'not very good', 'not bad', 'not too bad', etc.

For example, 'not good' often doesn't actually mean 'bad', it is (usually) closer in meaning to 'not good enough', or perhaps 'mediocre'. When 'not good' actually does mean 'bad' or even 'very bad' it is because the speaker is using understatement.

Orwell was trying to make a point about the totalization of language and constraining thinking to promote binary thinking (us/them, for/against, good/bad). But he failed to really account for human perversity, which would have immediately produced phrases in NewSpeak such as 'not ungood', 'un-doubleplus ungood', etc., not to mention the use of sarcasm, which in the UK can be so deadpan that it is undetectable unless you have a lot of context.

Oddly, while Orwell obviously understood both satire and parody, and employed both to great effect, sarcasm seems to have largely eluded him. His characters are nearly always earnest and sincere. A few are insincere, euphemistic, even mendacious, but I don't think many (or any?) are ever sarcastic. It's an odd omission.

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by newsclues on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:19PM (#28993279)
Dictionaries exist.

Anyone is welcome to look up words they don’t understand.

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by OnlineGladiator on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:13PM (#28993205)
> antepenultimate

And I thought knowing what penultimate meant was fun. For those that don't know, penultimate means second to last and antepenultimate means third to last.

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by FabHK on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:18PM (#28993264)
(There's also "preantepenultimate" if you ever want to say fourth to last without saying fourth to last...)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/preantepenultimate

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by OnlineGladiator on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:33PM (#28993416)
Now I'm curious if there's a word meaning 'having more syllables than the definition itself' because we crossed that barrier back at antepenultimate (and penultimate already is tied with 'second to last').
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by chrismorgan on Monday October 25, 2021 @06:45PM (#28994098)
Well, there’s sesquipedalia for long words. You can also try hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hippopotomonstrosesquipedalio....
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by teawrecks on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:41PM (#28993495)
And apparently propreantepenultimate. Love this lol
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by mgdlbp on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @02:03AM (#28996931)
This aversion to repetition has also engendered such words as quasihemidemisemiquaver—half half half half eighth note.
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by NikolaNovak on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:16PM (#28993241)
I have now discovered "preantepenultimate" and my world is a happier place with a bit of faith in humanity restored. Thank you for leading the way :)
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by mgdlbp on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @01:40AM (#28996793)
Perhaps you'll also find joy in 'demisemihemidemisemiquaver' and friends!

Here, though, the quest for elegant variation must prematurely conclude at 'quasihemidemisemiquaver'.

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by NikolaNovak on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @08:40AM (#28999649)
I see why that would appear that way, but no... Music Theory, a.k.a. "Random disorganized thoughts of 18th century grouchy old white Austrians" is a place where logic and joy go to die!

Reading "A quarter note triplet consists of three-quarter notes over the same amount of time as two-quarter notes" causes Baby buddha Jesus-Mohammad to cry and kick puppies in frustration at where humanity has gotten.

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by __d on Monday October 25, 2021 @07:17PM (#28994411)
So ... propreantepenultimate must have really tipped you over into ecstasy? :-)
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by RickJWagner on Monday October 25, 2021 @07:11PM (#28994369)
Given EFF's recent political leanings, I'd think Gilmore has a good chance of eventually having the high ground.
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by tpmx on Monday October 25, 2021 @06:44PM (#28994093)
And sensible people are routing around the current EFF as a response.
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by busterarm on Monday October 25, 2021 @07:54PM (#28994762)
I stopped giving money to them a couple of years ago and have started to become highly critical of recent stances they've taken but every time I mention this I get berated/downvoted to oblivion.

It's sort of vindicating to start seeing others feel the same way finally.

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by smartbit on Monday October 25, 2021 @09:48PM (#28995496)
Where do you donate your money now? noyb.eu?
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by busterarm on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @02:02AM (#28996923)
Software foundations. They actually do things and aren't just a bunch of activist lawyers.
Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by alanbernstein on Saturday October 30, 2021 @10:53AM (#29049229)
Activist lawyers provide some value, no?

Can you elaborate on why you've stopped supporting EFF? I'm just curious as I've basically been a blind supporter of them for years, and this removal has reminded me that I should actually pay attention to what's going on in the organization if I'm going to donate to it.

Re:EFF co-founder John Gilmore removed from org's Board by busterarm on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @08:31PM (#29089558)
Yeah, they blatantly misrepresented a overwhelmingly-supported bipartisan bill (all opposition came exclusively from Third Way Democrats in the House, about 1/3 of the party), Register of Copyrights Selection and Accountability Act, using anti-Trump fearmongering tactics.

The Bill would make the Register of Copyrights position accountable to both the legislative and executive branches of government and selected by committee. It also established eligibility requirements to hold the position. Currently the position is appointed directly by the Librarian of Congress with no oversight (effectively only accountable to the executive, in the sense that the President can order the Librarian to select a new Register or risk the Librarian's job).

The EFF is extremely buddy-buddy with the Library of Congress and from what I can gather lobbied hard against the Bill to protect their friends from diluted political power.

It's a position that's completely opposed to principals one would hold if they wanted a transparent, accountable government. It's not a position that I thought made any sense for the EFF to support.

I challenged Katharine Trendacosta on their Activism Team who sent out the fear-mongering mailer and was given the brush off.