News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by kingcharles on Friday October 22, 2021 @12:09PM (#28958947)
This happened to me. The police wanted my password and refused my right to silence, wouldn't let me call a lawyer. I wouldn't talk. Then they threatened my wife and I gave up my password to stop them from hurting her.

The password was suppressed by the court, but they let the police use it anyway because one of the officers (with no formal computer qualifications) testified he could have broken 2048-bit AES encryption without the password. And worse case he said he would unsolder the chips off the circuit board and put them onto another board and that would fix it. The judge allowed the testimony and believed it.

Make sure you always use a password on your devices though. Biometrics are not protected by the 5th Amendment in the USA as the police can legally force your finger onto a touchpad or hold your face in front of a camera.

Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by bleachedsleet on Friday October 22, 2021 @01:55PM (#28960355)
Also, if you do use biometrics and ever find yourself in a sticky situation most modern operating systems have built in features to quickly disable them on demand. iOS, for example, allows you to quickly disable Face/Touch ID by holding the side+any volume button for two seconds and then quickly tap the side button again when the shutdown slide appears.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by kingcharles on Friday October 22, 2021 @02:32PM (#28960793)
Probably won't have time. I had a loaded gun pointed at my head and told not to touch my phone. Had every reason to believe they would have fired.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by boppo1 on Friday October 22, 2021 @06:27PM (#28963540)
You have to tell this story.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by HeavyStorm on Friday October 22, 2021 @05:37PM (#28963054)
Nobody else is going to ask the parent what was that?
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by DantesKite on Friday October 22, 2021 @06:20PM (#28963488)
Why did the police point a gun at your head?
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by atatatat on Friday October 22, 2021 @11:59PM (#28965584)
United States
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by steelframe on Friday October 22, 2021 @03:46PM (#28961762)
With iPhones you can say, "Hey Siri, whose phone is this?" That will disable biometric unlock.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by mekal on Friday October 22, 2021 @04:05PM (#28962051)
I just tried this with my iphone 11, just out of curiosity... Siri ratted me out and my face still unlocked it.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by steelframe on Friday October 22, 2021 @06:13PM (#28963418)
I'm running iOS 15.0.2 on an iPhone 12 Pro. The response I got was, "I believe this iPhone belongs to Bob," where "Bob" is my first name. Then Face ID was disabled, and the only way I could unlock my phone was with my passcode.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by jakelazaroff on Saturday October 23, 2021 @10:12PM (#28974302)
Also running iOS 15.0.2. This did not disable biometric unlock. Don’t mess with Siri, just hold down the power button and either volume button simultaneously for a few seconds.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by hackmiester on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @11:36PM (#29022100)
Be sure not to look at your phone when you test it! If it sees your face and unlocks before the command is processed, it doesn't work.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by charlieo88 on Monday October 25, 2021 @05:51PM (#28993593)
iPhone 7 plus runing 15.0.2, my biometrics unlock was disabled until I put in the password.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by hackmiester on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @11:36PM (#29022097)
Be sure not to look at your phone when you test it!
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by chimeracoder on Friday October 22, 2021 @04:51PM (#28962580)
> iOS, for example, allows you to quickly disable Face/Touch ID by holding the side+any volume button for two seconds and then quickly tap the side button again when the shutdown slide appears

Android unfortunately doesn't have anything like this enabled by default, and what it allows you to enable is much more limited.

Lockdown mode[0] has to be enabled manually (it's hidden deep in setting that most people won't notice), and all it does is add an additional soft button when you long-press the power button. That button will disable biometric unlocking and hide notifications, but only until the phone is next unlocked.

Unfortunately, in situations where you might want to use this, long-pressing the button and then having to tap the screen is cumbersome.

To be fair, the third button is the power button, which will turn off the device and is effectively another way of disabling the biometric unlocking. So if you randomly press the top of the screen, you have a 2/3 chance of locking your phone as desired... and a 1/3 chance of calling 911 instead (which may make the situation worse).

https://screenrant.com/android-lockdown-mode-purpose-enable-...

Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by pahomov on Friday October 22, 2021 @09:32PM (#28964823)
My android (meizu) disables fingerprint unlock after entering SOS mode by pressing power button 5 times. It was enabled by default. I dont'know if this applies to all androids. It works for iphone. This method is easier to do without looking at the screen.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by chimeracoder on Friday October 22, 2021 @10:42PM (#28965210)
> My android (meizu) disables fingerprint unlock after entering SOS mode by pressing power button 5 times. It was enabled by default. I dont'know if this applies to all androids.

That's your particular phone. It does not apply to most Android phones.

Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by Ikatza on Friday October 22, 2021 @06:23PM (#28963514)
Not really. I have a gesture programmed in Nova Launcher to disable biometrics with a pinch. The system allows you to do many more things than iOS, just not put of the box.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by chimeracoder on Friday October 22, 2021 @06:29PM (#28963552)
> Not really. I have a gesture programmed in Nova Launcher to disable biometrics with a pinch

The original statement was

> most modern operating systems have built in features to quickly disable them on demand

A custom-made gesture using a third-party launcher is not built-in (to say nothing of whether that's accessible or feasible for the vast majority of Android users).

Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by atatatat on Saturday October 23, 2021 @12:02AM (#28965600)
All that matters is the result.

Most users would be okay with having these features only available through the Apple App Store.

Instead, the result is none of those features on their phone.

Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by l3s2d on Friday October 22, 2021 @06:34PM (#28963599)
I believe lockdown mode is available in the power menu by default in Android 12.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by zizee on Friday October 22, 2021 @08:15PM (#28964410)
If you are ever expecting to be in a situation where a) you have incriminating evidence on you phone, and b) have reason to believe the police will likely try and get access to it at some unpredictable time in the future, I think you'd just be wise to not use biometrics at all.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by lathiat on Friday October 22, 2021 @08:18PM (#28964431)
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by q1w2 on Friday October 22, 2021 @03:39PM (#28961680)
> he said he would unsolder the chips off the circuit board and put them onto another board ... The judge allowed the testimony and believed it.

I've experienced similar issues with judges. When evidence hinges on something very technical - they generally allow it and place the burden of arguing it on the defense. ...which often allows any other evidence gotten by that means. ...and even if/when it's struck out - the prosecutor uses some parallel construction argument to say they could have gotten the evidence through another means. ...and the judge usually accepts that too.

The prosecutor also then takes things like hearsay, circumstantial evidence, and literal misrepresentations to build a seemingly huge case against the defendant. It's a form of intimidation to accept a plea deal.

I've seen TONS of defendants admit to crimes they didn't commit in plea deals, just because it's such a huge and long uphill battle to fight every single bogus charge.

These aren't straight up innocent or perfect people. They're usually guilty of something minor - like small-time possession / solicitation / parole violation / DUI / etc... But what happens is that when you're guilty of anything, the judge treats you like you're guilty of EVERYTHING, and the prosecutor loads up the charges with anything they can think of to take advantage of that.

Most defense attorneys hate these cases because clients can't pay, so they encourage them to settle for a plea deal - even if it includes admitting to stuff they didn't do. ...and most defendants accept it so they can move on with their lives and avoid prison time.

So yeah, people with money hire $700/hr attorneys, and they absolutely make things go away. Even prosecutors drastically change demeanor when they see a defendant with a high-priced lawyer, because the prosecutor doesn't want to invest a lot of time on any specific case - and doesn't want his office or the police/investigators to be held up to scrutiny with various subpoenas - so charges drop off much more easily, and/or defendants get off with misdemeanor in a good plea deals.

The point of this story is to help shed some naiveté that you might have about the system ultimately being fair - even through the long and expensive appeals process. It isn't. ...and most defendants don't have the time or money to pursue appeals. And moreover, when tech is involved, it is markedly even less fair because the judge doesn't understand the tech, and so will believe whatever BS the prosecutor makes up.

Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by kingcharles on Friday October 22, 2021 @06:25PM (#28963530)
This. Everything above. I was offered plea for immediate release on my very first court date. Turned it down. Spent 8 years locked up fighting it. It's complicated, but it actually got dismissed after 5 years but as I was walking out of the jail I got arrested again by some out-of-jurisdiction police on a fake arrest warrant that the prosecutors created and had entered into the Sheriff's computer system. So back to jail for another 3 years to fight again. Trying telling anyone the arrest warrant was fake! LOL. I wrote letters all over the place to try and get some action on that. I had the state government come one time to the jail with the sheriff's record people.. "The computer says you were arrested, so you were arrested." "OK, who does it say arrested me?" "It says the prosecutor arrested you." "Have you ever heard of a prosecutor making an arrest before?" "No, but the computer says it so it has to be true." FML. Basically no-one would accept that it is possible for a fake warrant to be made. I EVEN HAVE THE COURT ROOM TRANSCRIPTS WHERE THE JUDGE SAYS THERE IS NO ARREST WARRANT.. and still no-one would believe me. The system is fucked. If I had $250,000 for some real lawyers I would be fine.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by nullc on Friday October 22, 2021 @07:08PM (#28963855)
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by kingcharles on Friday October 22, 2021 @08:53PM (#28964615)
That is fantastic. You made my day. Funny it was based in Illinois too!
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by nullc on Saturday October 23, 2021 @06:38PM (#28973064)
Yeah, I think I wouldn't have remembered the story except for you mentioning Illinois!
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by cyphertruck on Friday October 22, 2021 @04:02PM (#28962006)
What you are describing is corruption. It’s actually a crime. But government will never hold government prosecutors or judges to account for corruption that favors government interests.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by kingcharles on Friday October 22, 2021 @06:29PM (#28963549)
Who do you report it to?

For instance, the police committed about a dozen felonies in my case. In Illinois, in all counties except Cook County, the misconduct has to be reported to the police station where the officer works. THEY WILL JUST LAUGH AT YOU. They are not going to charge their own police officer with misconduct because a "criminal" reported it.

And if you are in jail and try to report anything you can only do it by postal mail. In which case all your letters just go into the circular filing cabinet under their desk.

Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by voakbasda on Saturday October 23, 2021 @12:19PM (#28969882)
Your story underscores my belief that government is past the point of reporting in the hope of repair or reform. When the system is broken beyond rescue, at what point is it right to revolt?
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by q1w2 on Saturday October 23, 2021 @05:48PM (#28972676)
This is the way the system works. You can call it corruption - but words don't matter. Most judges and most prosecutors function like this.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by wolverine876 on Friday October 22, 2021 @07:09PM (#28963864)
The public holds the District Attorney accountable, and in many places recently, they have voted out corrupt ones.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by 1123581321 on Saturday October 23, 2021 @09:36PM (#28974114)
Cook County, mate. Kim Foxx marketed herself as a reformer but nothing is changing for people trapped in its judiciary system. And despite a few recent changes the party still controls its candidates well enough that it only needs to present two manageable options in the primary.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by wolverine876 on Sunday October 24, 2021 @05:40PM (#28982183)
I don't know about Kim Foxx, but others in the new wave of DAs have certainly made vast changes.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by gknoy on Friday October 22, 2021 @03:54PM (#28961880)
> $700/hr attorneys

How many hours of attorney-work should one expect to budget for?

Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by kingcharles on Friday October 22, 2021 @06:17PM (#28963460)
On a criminal case? Potentially hundreds. Personally I've put in several thousand hours in legal research towards my case. The deeper you research the more you find. I'm eight years in and only recently did I find some binding case law to support some of my arguments about the police misconduct.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by wolverine876 on Friday October 22, 2021 @07:08PM (#28963854)
Are you a prosecutor or criminal defense lawyer?
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by kingcharles on Friday October 22, 2021 @08:55PM (#28964625)
They might be, but they also might be someone who has been through the "justice" system in the past. You pick up so much. Seeing the gallows is a great way to focus a man's mind. I guarantee I know more about the criminal law in Illinois than a majority of defense attorneys or prosecutors.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by BeefySwain on Friday October 22, 2021 @01:04PM (#28959731)
Did you appeal? Or reach out to the ACLU or EFF? I'll admit I'm somewhat skeptical of your account, but if true I would expect a post demonstrating so would be on the front page of this site quite quickly.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by kingcharles on Friday October 22, 2021 @01:52PM (#28960321)
Where I live you can only appeal once you're found guilty at a trial. The case is over 8 years old now and I still haven't had trial. I would hope the appeal court would reverse, but I've had about a dozen cases wrongly denied by the appellate courts recently. The appellate courts are pretty much as biased as the trial courts, especially at the state level. The federal courts are a little bit smarter.

I've tried talking to the ACLU and EFF in the past but received no replies.

Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by dillondoyle on Friday October 22, 2021 @03:02PM (#28961203)
Wait, you are part to or accused in about 12 cases?!
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by kingcharles on Friday October 22, 2021 @03:20PM (#28961443)
No, only two criminal cases. The other 12 cases were civil involving detainee rights.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by perl4ever on Friday October 22, 2021 @07:00PM (#28963802)
If the court records are public, maybe people would be interested in reading about it?
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by IceWreck on Friday October 22, 2021 @03:06PM (#28961267)
Now I'm wondering what he does for a living. Maybe he's an activist or something/.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by kingcharles on Friday October 22, 2021 @06:13PM (#28963424)
I made money while I was in jail by suing the jail for all their rights violations. But my day job has been web development since the 90s.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by BingoAhoy on Friday October 22, 2021 @07:17PM (#28963939)
Would you mind going into detail about the right violations lawsuit please? I'm very interested in how you had success and what were the specific violations.

I'm very sorry to hear how your life got turned upside down for a victimless felony. Makes me sick we cage people for some fabricated rule invented by some out of touch legislators.

Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by kingcharles on Friday October 22, 2021 @08:40PM (#28964531)
I think I filed about 60 cases in total. So, off the top of my head... one that is still ongoing is that newspapers are banned inside the Cook County Jail for "security" reasons. You actually have a Constitutional right to access newspapers under the 1st Amendment, but that doesn't stop an agency from blocking this right and then making you sue them.

The primary reasons given by detention facilities for blocking newspapers are fire, flooding, gang information and hidden messages in classifieds. The argument is that newspapers are easy to burn, that you can block the toilets with them, that you can find out what gang members are upto and that you can get messages from the outside (all communications are monitored in custody).

These excuses used to be taken as gospel by the courts, but lately there has been a little pushback from the rare judge. Fires have been ruled out - you usually have books, magazines, legal work that you can burn instead. Flooding is ruled out - you can use clothing, towels, sheets, blankets instead, and of course, other paper goods. Messages can be hidden inside magazine ads too, and magazines are usually allowed. Gang information - well, you can get this from the TV and telephone. I don't know a single gang member who wants a newspaper to get gang information. They just call their people on the telephone.

This was a similar suit won against the same jail a few years ago: http://archive.today/2021.10.23-004355/https://www.prisonleg...

One suit I won $1000 for was because I used a Freedom of Information law to try to get the disciplinary record of my arresting officer because the prosecutor told me he was bogus. I tried three times and the police refused to reply, so I sued and asked them to settle immediately. They gave me the records and offered me $500. I asked for $1300 and said I wanted them to bring me Five Guys cheeseburger and fries to the jail. They replied $1000 and "lunch is not part of the deal." So I got the cash at least.

They were giving us 45 minutes less sleep than they should, and an hour less than they should out of our cells during the day. I won that, which was a big logistical nightmare for the jail and sent me to the Hole for the 2nd time with a fake contraband charge.

I sued because they put you in the Hole without giving you a hearing to determine if you are guilty of any infraction. I lost that in the trial court and appeal court. They ruled that pretrial detainees can be punished for any reason without any justification.

I sued because county sheriffs in Illinois aren't bound by any limits on punishment. I'll explain. Crimes are regulated by statutes which tell you exactly what you should not do, in detail, and the punishment expected if you commit them. These statutes are written by democratically-elected lawmakers. In county jails the sheriffs make up all the "crimes" and the punishment. Anything they say is a crime. And they can assign any punishment. Therefore if you "cause a disturbance" (one stated crime which is so vague it can mean anything) they can punish you by sending you to the Hole. But they could also just get out a knife and chop your hand off. Or they could just shoot you dead on the spot. There is nothing to protect you right now. I sued to limit this, but the courts said the constitutional protections on proportional punishments (punishment must fit the crime) under the Illinois and federal constitutions do not apply to pretrial detainees in Illinois.

I tried to get workers comp for the people in the kitchen who had lost their fingers in the meatball-making machine, but the statute requires that you must be a "person performing a service for the Sheriff" to get workers comp and the Attorney General basically ruled that detainees do not fit the legal definition of a "person".

I could go on all night LOL

Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by BingoAhoy on Saturday October 23, 2021 @03:33AM (#28966457)
Thank you for taking the time.

Retaliation for reaffirming rights. What a lovely justice system...

Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by totalZero on Saturday October 23, 2021 @03:52AM (#28966534)
Sounds like you did great things for some really disadvantaged people. Until reading your comment, I had never connected the right to read newspapers with the freedom to print them.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by atatatat on Saturday October 23, 2021 @12:08AM (#28965627)
Would you mind?
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by xanaxagoras on Friday October 22, 2021 @05:30PM (#28962986)
How do you make a living as an activist?
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by kag0 on Friday October 22, 2021 @06:37PM (#28963621)
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by giantg2 on Friday October 22, 2021 @02:11PM (#28960549)
Sounds like a nightmare, but also unsurprising based on my limited experiences. I hope you are outside the statue of limitations or speedy trial window by now.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by kingcharles on Friday October 22, 2021 @02:34PM (#28960821)
Statute of limitations only applies to charging someone, not after they've been charged.

Speedy trial doesn't apply in almost any situation you can think of. It's almost impossible to beat a case on speedy trial grounds. All my speedy trial motions have been denied so far, most recently because of COVID. I'm still working this angle though.

Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by giantg2 on Friday October 22, 2021 @02:58PM (#28961164)
I wasn't sure if they formally charged you. My state says they have 5 years to complete the trial (or maybe initiate after charging).

Good luck!

Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by kingcharles on Friday October 22, 2021 @03:20PM (#28961447)
Thank you!
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by andrei_says_ on Friday October 22, 2021 @01:16PM (#28959897)
> Biometrics are not protected by the 5th Amendment in the USA as the police can legally force your finger onto a touchpad or hold your face in front of a camera.

Where can I read about this distinction?

Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by kingcharles on Friday October 22, 2021 @01:49PM (#28960285)
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by KronisLV on Saturday October 23, 2021 @01:57AM (#28966117)
> Make sure you always use a password on your devices though. Biometrics are not protected by the 5th Amendment in the USA as the police can legally force your finger onto a touchpad or hold your face in front of a camera.

This seems kind of crazy to me. If passwords being private are okay, why should the powers that be allowed to treat biometrics any differently, at least in the context of unlocking devices? Otherwise, what's to prevent them from intimidating, threatening or torturing you until you give up your passwords as well?

To me, that's just a blatant abuse of power either way and it feels like there should be another amendment to your constitution concerning data privacy.

Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by kingcharles on Saturday October 23, 2021 @02:03PM (#28970824)
They say the difference is that you have to use your mind to give up your passwords. The 5th Amend. only protects them extracting things from your mind.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by jobigoud on Saturday October 23, 2021 @03:28AM (#28966437)
Using biometrics as password is kind of crazy. Biometrics are login. They say who you are, not some secret you know.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by KronisLV on Saturday October 23, 2021 @04:10AM (#28966607)
And yet it happens, because it's easy.

Is it not the wisest decision ever? Sure.

However, since it's already being done, we might as well create laws around protecting this use case.

For example, from what i know, people in the USA use their SSNs both as identifiers and sometimes as something like a pseudo-password, which seems like a really bad approach, but at the same time should be regarded as the objective and sub-optimal reality, with which we need to cope until a better solution is implemented (if ever).

Saying that the method is bad and shouldn't be considered when it's already in widespread usage is something that we just can't do.

Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by efleurine on Friday October 22, 2021 @05:07PM (#28962741)
Good to know. I'm am getting rid of biometrics asap
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by kingcharles on Friday October 22, 2021 @06:18PM (#28963464)
Yeah, it's a pain-in-the-ass to always have to enter a code to open your phone, but I'd rather suffer that than have the cops hold my face in front of the phone to open it up.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by subhro on Friday October 22, 2021 @06:54PM (#28963749)
You can keep your eyes closed or not look at the phone. I believe iOS needs your attention to allow biometrics. And a few times it fails, it will require the password.
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by kingcharles on Friday October 22, 2021 @07:00PM (#28963801)
I guess the police would just force your eyes open. They would be allowed to drug you in this situation too.

The police most often use this kind of power in DUI cases where they extract your blood forceably. In the terms and conditions of your driver's licences in the USA most of them say that you agree to allow the police to do this.

Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by novok on Friday October 22, 2021 @05:17PM (#28962852)
Im guessing you were not allowed to produce your own expert witness then? Or couldn’t afford it?
Re:Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then t... by kingcharles on Friday October 22, 2021 @06:15PM (#28963437)
Right. Could not afford it. And the court is supposed to appoint one for you. The reality was that my lawyer and I were caught off-guard because the police shouldn't have been able to testify like that. My lawyer objected, but the judge overruled.