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Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by headcanon on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @03:51PM (#28935402)
I do think about that idea as well, but population density (on both sides) is an important factor though. Both the Vikings and the native populations had far lower population densities than, say, 15-century Spain and Italy, which is likely why the diseases didn't spread in the first place.

Mesoamerica a few centuries later did end up having the density required for disease transfer as history shows, but it was also helped along by the Spanish's active invasion. If the Spanish hadn't ever set foot on shore and the Mesoamerican society was allowed to develop, they would likely have developed their own diseases and the subsequent immune response, which may have helped fight Smallpox. But the Spanish got there before they had that opportunity.

If the Spanish invasion had been replaced by a smaller troupe of Viking traders, I would be interested to see what would happen, and you might be right if you only change that one variable. But who knows?

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by AlotOfReading on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @04:03PM (#28935632)
Mesoamerica had high population densities long before Spain was even a thing.

Indigenous Americans didn't carry over many of the serious diseases from the old world and the animals that were there mostly didn't contribute serious new ones. There are a few cases where we can see things like tuberculosis (from seals), but they're limited and evidence of them largely hasn't survived in extant populations. Likewise, Icelandic populations were isolated and relatively healthy. Those that survived the long trip to Greenland and the Americas would have been even more so.

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by danjac on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @04:04PM (#28935651)
> the animals that were there mostly didn't contribute serious new ones

Aren't syphilis and Lyme disease of New World origin?

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by bregma on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @05:09PM (#28936669)
There is evidence that syphillis came from the Americas. There is evidence it was introduced to the Americas by Europeans. One problem is that it's hard to distinguish teritiary syphillis from tuberculosis or leprosy on bones.

As for Borreliosis, there are many variants of it endemic to Europe and spread by ticks. No evidence that it came from the Americas.

Neither of those spirochetes are zoonotic.

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by vanattab on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @05:22PM (#28936830)
Why is a tic biting a human and transferring Borreliosis not considered zoonotic?
Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by littlestymaar on Thursday October 21, 2021 @04:54AM (#28942010)
My understanding is that if the tick was only a vector between two humans (for instance, malaria isn't a zoonosis, because the mosquito is just transmitting the disease between humans), then it would not be a zoonosis. But in most cases with Lyme disease, the tick is actually transmitting the disease from another animal to a human, therefore it is indeed a zoonosis.[1]

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyme_disease#Transmission

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by lostlogin on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @06:53PM (#28937873)
According to everyone favourite source, Lyme disease is zoonotic.

I had never heard the term until today, so take the claim with a pinch.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoonosis

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by hoseja on Thursday October 21, 2021 @03:18AM (#28941382)
I agree, Lyme disease definitely isn't primarily human.
Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by AlotOfReading on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @04:11PM (#28935774)
There's quite a lot of debate over the precise origins of syphilis. I'm only peripherally familiar with the literature, but my understanding is that recent work suggests (but not concludes) that it might have been endemic to afroeurasia rather than or as well as the Americas. Lyme disease is indeed wholly American, but it's not epidemic or even particularly mortal.
Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by klyrs on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @05:05PM (#28936602)
Lyme disease is not wholly American, though its incidence may be in more recent times.

"Ötzi the iceman" had it 5kya: https://www.utoronto.ca/news/u-t-researchers-find-ancient-ic...

An ancestor to that bacteria was found in a tick that lived 15Mya: https://www.livescience.com/46007-lyme-disease-ancient-amber...

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by foxhop on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @06:29PM (#28937658)
Lyme is a scary to go through, I've had it twice now, here is my latest encounter: https://youtu.be/xbPr7DHwSIw
Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by COGlory on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @04:31PM (#28936065)
I enjoyed this paper on the origins and distribution of Treponema (the bug that causes syphilis and a few other skin diseases).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3956094/

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by Telemakhos on Thursday October 21, 2021 @08:21AM (#28943358)
I'm surprised that paper got published, considering the basic spelling errors ("jaws" for "yaws") and errors of fact ("Española Island…a part of the Galápagos Islands").
Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by vidarh on Thursday October 21, 2021 @08:50AM (#28943668)
> considering the basic spelling errors ("jaws" for "yaws")

Missing a single erroroneous instance of a word that won't get caught by spell check may be embarrassing, but it's hardly material.

> ("Española Island…a part of the Galápagos Islands")

https://www.galapagos.org/about_galapagos/about-galapagos/th...

What is the error here?

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by Telemakhos on Thursday October 21, 2021 @11:52AM (#28946306)
There are several islands in the world that have had the name Española. The one that is relevant to the discussion about syphilis is now more commonly known as Hispanola, home to Haiti and the Dominican Republic. Columbus visited in 1492/3 and supposedly brought back Syphilis in 1493. The Galapagos islands are in the Pacific, and were never visited by Columbus.
Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by vidarh on Friday October 22, 2021 @06:47AM (#28955614)
Ah, yeah that make sense. I just looked at the immediate sentence, rather than question which island it referred to. I'm assuming that's the cause for the error too - just someone wanting to reference location and popping the name into Google -, though it's certainly a much more serious error than the spelling mistake.
Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by selimthegrim on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @07:43PM (#28938338)
Yaws is found in Africa and was there before 1492. But syphilis was in the Americas before 1492 as well..
Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by jeltz on Thursday October 21, 2021 @06:46AM (#28942665)
Roman Spain had high population densities much earlier.
Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by tomjakubowski on Thursday October 21, 2021 @01:19PM (#28947778)
Not true. Large Maya cities existed hundreds of years before Romans colonized Hispania. Nakbe was abandoned, hundreds of years after its peak, ca. 200-100 BCE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakbe

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by afarrell on Thursday October 21, 2021 @07:20AM (#28942873)
> before Spain was even a thing

note: Spain was unified in 1491.

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by anthk on Thursday October 21, 2021 @07:33AM (#28942979)
Not all. Navarre was out, then it was conquered in 1512. And yet, it was not fully integrated into Spain. They had their own currency and customs. Also, they had no military service duties. That until mid 1800s.
Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by voz_ on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @05:55PM (#28937284)
> Mesoamerica had high population densities long before Spain was even a thing.

Citation needed?

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by nl on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @06:46PM (#28937812)
According to NASA archaeologist Tom Sever, the Mayan civilization in Mesoamerica was one of the densest populations in human history. Around 800 A.D., after two millennia of steady growth, the Mayan population reached an all-time high. Population density ranged from 500 to 700 people per square mile in the rural areas, and from 1,800 to 2,600 people per square mile near the center of the Mayan Empire (in what is now northern Guatemala). In comparison, Los Angeles County averaged 2,345 people per square mile in 2000.[1]

[1] https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/Maya

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by voz_ on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @08:41PM (#28938802)
Right, agreed entirely, this is higher than the numbers I recall from reading, but same order of magnitude. It was the flippant reference to Spain regarding chronology that I took umbrage with. Thats ~700 years after the area of Spain was named Spain (Latin Hispaniola in the Roman empire, iirc).

I always find the slightly emotional charge discussions (and subsequent downvotes) odd. There seems to be a very strong interest in certain groups to downplay or deride either the colonized, or colonizing side on measurements such as perceived development.

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by AlotOfReading on Thursday October 21, 2021 @12:42AM (#28940349)
It's true even if we're very pedantic. Mesoamerica has had urbanization and high population densities for quite a long time. Michael Smith has pointed out pretty high urbanization rates (approaching 20%) even in the terminal formative period. Typical numbers I've seen are somewhere in the 8-12+ish people/km^2 range. That's roughly comparable to the western Roman empire at the time. But yes, I did mean the kingdom, not a separate term in another language for a peninsula that doesn't really correspond to the modern area.
Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by nl on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @10:32PM (#28939575)
> It was the flippant reference to Spain regarding chronology that I took umbrage with. Thats ~700 years after the area of Spain was named Spain (Latin Hispaniola in the Roman empire, iirc).

Obviously the land area of Spain has "always" existed. I think referring to "Spain's existence" as the socio-political entity established during the Reconquista is a reasonable position for a throw-away line during a HN discussion.

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by fennecfoxen on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @11:45PM (#28939965)
> If the Spanish hadn't ever set foot on shore and the Mesoamerican society was allowed to develop, they would likely have developed their own diseases

Not really. Old World societies had access to many more domesticated animals, a key reason that they also had major diseases.

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by bhickey on Thursday October 21, 2021 @07:57AM (#28943145)
> If the Spanish hadn't ever set foot on shore and the Mesoamerican society was allowed to develop, they would likely have developed their own diseases and the subsequent immune response, which may have helped fight Smallpox.

The most charitable reading of this is "if cowpox, monkeypox or some other zoonotic pox virus had an opportunity to spread through Mesoamerican society, they might've fared better with smallpox."

A less charitable reading is "they might've faired better with smallpox if they had some other disease exposure prior to invasion."

Either of these cases seems implausible. I don't know of any pox virus from the Americas that provides immunity to smallpox. In Europe we know that cowpox provided immunity among milkmaids. We also know that it didn't spread between people. There's no reason to believe that the only missing element was time for some other pox to emerge. As for the less charitable reading, prior infection with a pathogen is unlikely to provide any benefit against an unrelated pathogen. In the decades after smallpox swept through Aztec society the Cocoliztli epidemics killed twice again as many people.

Fundamentally the problem was the introduction of a virus with a high mortality rate to an immunologically naive population. There's a major difference between a disease killing 50% of your under 12 population and 50% of everyone. The former is a disaster, the latter will collapse society, particularly one already fighting against an invasion.

Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by shele on Thursday October 21, 2021 @08:50AM (#28943671)
I remember that this is not the whole story, the Spanish invasion and then European invasion was on the larger scale moving slower than the diseases.
Re:Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021 by hyperpallium2 on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @09:35PM (#28939240)
They were "living in the future", but that doesn't always work out so well.