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Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by analyst74 on Sunday October 17, 2021 @12:51AM (#28894050)
I have a theory, all the "high quality" hobbies are challenging in one way or another, thus require some level of will power to push yourself to do it.

If you've been pushing yourself hard at work all day, then you have likely depleted your will power. Passive activities become the only ones you feel like doing.

Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by dend on Sunday October 17, 2021 @01:08AM (#28894121)
Ego depletion as a concept has been challenging to prove, if at all: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.0056...

I agree that often certain hobbies require a push to get started. That initial barrier is what I found the hardest to overcome, but once you start going - it becomes easier and easier. Similar to how one can attempt to overcome moments of procrastination - you need to get started and push through initial discomfort.

Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by rolisz on Sunday October 17, 2021 @02:14AM (#28894364)
I think it's more that after 8 exhausting hours, I don't have energy anymore for anything. The 8 exhausting hours would be a day full of meetings, after which my brain is a mush and doesn't work anymore.
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by teekert on Sunday October 17, 2021 @04:20AM (#28894848)
I don’t believe this, if you push yourself to bike through a forrest, run until you’re out of breath, talk a long walk after work… You’ll come back with more energy then when you spend that time on the couch binging Squid Game. There is just no doubt in my mind about this.

But it may start out feeling like a diet for the mind, that I am willing to believe. But like with a healthy diet you’ll benefit immensely over time. But it requires discipline.

Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by akgerber on Sunday October 17, 2021 @12:42PM (#28897708)
I took a 60 mile bike ride yesterday in perfect weather, much of it on a beautiful forest road, and afterwards I was exhausted and it took a huge amount of effort even just to feed myself, and it was totally impossible to summon any motivation to spend 5 minutes to do the dishes afterward. I've been riding a bike for a decades, have crossed continents by bike, and have bike commuted my entire career pre-COVID.

I slept pretty well and feel healthy and energized today and doing the dishes was easy this morning, but it's totally contrary to my entire life experience to claim that doing something physically tiring gives you more energy afterward.

Not that doing nothing all the time feels good— humans just don't have unlimited capacity for output. Taking a leisurely morning walk (or a moderate-distance bike commute) certainly gets my day started on the right foot, but going harder faster longer at physical activity makes me physically tired and less capable of doing other things.

Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by TuringNYC on Sunday October 17, 2021 @12:49PM (#28897766)
I'll bet there is a curve. My own experiences cycling suggest that a little bit isnt helpful. A good amount is energizing, and too much is exhausting. For me those attachment and detachment points are probably [0;8;20]. Your mileage will absolutely vary.

A great exercise would be to find some causality from Strava data and git commit, both of which I have fairly extensive data on.

Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by cafard on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @10:08AM (#28918229)
Agreed. I have always found that a long run left me tired and a bit sleepy for a while afterward.
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by manmal on Sunday October 17, 2021 @10:25AM (#28896685)
Human metabolism, and also the brain, needs rest after exertion in order to be able to do more work. Some people have it easier in that regard, but everybody has their own limits. Discipline in that context means pushing limits, which is not advisable long-term. Every system eventually fails when put under too much ongoing stress - burnout (/overtraining) is one of the lesser problems this can create.
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by teekert on Sunday October 17, 2021 @11:52AM (#28897317)
Pushing limits in terms of the brain is binging garbage in stead of looking at trees, listening to birds.

Pushing the limits of a body is sitting in a chair for 8 hours, barely moving, in stead of walking around doing stuff with your hands, taking a swim, climbing a tree picking some nuts.

We should make no mistakes about what the natural actions and states of our minds and bodies are.

Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by manmal on Sunday October 17, 2021 @01:47PM (#28898247)
Sounds like good advice for people who work out of a cabin in or near the woods, and probably don’t have kids or a partner with their own schedule.
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by rolisz on Sunday October 17, 2021 @04:54AM (#28894972)
I do workout regularly and I do go for walks. But like a diet, the effect is long term, not immediate.
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by VeninVidiaVicii on Sunday October 17, 2021 @02:48AM (#28894509)
Yes and imagine an intense level of stress when your partner asks what kind of movie you want to watch. Because, your brain just cannot process a single new decision.
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by vbezhenar on Sunday October 17, 2021 @05:18AM (#28895065)
You wrote it as a humour. But I learned that if I minimize an amount of decisions I have to do in my life, that makes me more productive at work. I believe that making a decision is the most exhausting activity, at least for me. I can spend my daily decision limit to choosing a movie or choosing a framework.
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by scns on Sunday October 17, 2021 @09:01AM (#28896147)
I read that Steve Jobs chose one outfit to wear every day. One less choice to make. Rituals/Habits help too. I learned the hard way that organization actually frees yourself to do stuff.
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by bredren on Sunday October 17, 2021 @03:57AM (#28894754)
Consider keeping a list of media you want to watch for occasions like this.

Exhausted or not, you’re probably more likely to come across something unexpectedly and write it down than remember them all and offer up something fitting from memory.

Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by scns on Sunday October 17, 2021 @09:04AM (#28896160)
Well, the watchlist gets longer and when i want to watch something it is hard to choose.
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by aloner on Sunday October 17, 2021 @12:30PM (#28897622)
Having a 15 to 30 minutes nap when my brains is mushy usually allow me to reset and get my mind in a more energized state, might be worth trying for you too.
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by amelius on Sunday October 17, 2021 @08:46AM (#28896076)
> once you start going - it becomes easier and easier

This may hold for activities like programming, where every decision follows almost logically from the previous ones. But if you're doing really hard research, with setback after setback, then it's much harder to "ignite" a work appetite.

Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by grp000 on Sunday October 17, 2021 @01:30AM (#28894207)
I used to push paperwork and send out emails, sometimes analyzing drawings, but not actually use my brain too much as a construction project engineer. As a data engineer, it definitely feels more taxing on the mental side.
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by bredren on Sunday October 17, 2021 @03:54AM (#28894746)
> once you start going - it becomes easier and easier.

It isn’t just getting going makes the project (hobby) easier.

It is the ability to organize the project into small steps that are relatively easy and yield novel artifacts.

Giving light structure to a hobby or side project (such as using GitHub issues even if it doesn’t involve code) let’s you pick up where you left off and see the incremental progress.

This administration is a practice of itself but the more you do it, the more natural it feels and easier it becomes to see progress.

Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by marginalia_nu on Sunday October 17, 2021 @06:14AM (#28895324)
> Ego depletion as a concept has been challenging to prove, if at all

Isn't this just a problem in trying to reduce the phenomenal experience of self into some objective reality, a quest that reduces to something adjacent to the hard problem of consciousness.

Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by aesyondu on Sunday October 17, 2021 @01:08AM (#28894117)
After switching careers to software engineering, I find that I appreciate high intensity / action oriented video games less (DMC, Monster Hunter, etc.).

My browser history is now filled with "chill or relaxing games", "games that don't need thinking" or something to that effect.

Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by maddyboo on Sunday October 17, 2021 @04:02AM (#28894773)
> chill and relax

> don’t need thinking

You seem to be seeking proxies for the effect of not thinking, putting your mind and body at ease, and letting go. Have you given meditation a try? Anecdotally, it can fulfill these needs in a way no other semi-conscious activity seems capable.

Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by aesyondu on Sunday October 17, 2021 @04:40AM (#28894922)
I started meditating when I was in university and have done it on and off since then. However, I've stopped a couple of months ago and haven't had the will to do it again. I find other activities more compelling, like reading everylayout or about rails performance.
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by billfruit on Sunday October 17, 2021 @03:14AM (#28894578)
My experience has been that if work is exhausting, then I turn to games that don't have much of narrative, but which rather on the mechanics. Like racing games, one does not have to think too much, but one has to be alert and focused on it.
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by pezezin on Sunday October 17, 2021 @05:28AM (#28895113)
Doom Eternal was that kind of game for me. After a long day with another pointless meeting with the usual assholes, slaying demons left and right was almost therapeutic.
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by skydhash on Sunday October 17, 2021 @06:16PM (#28900308)
Same, I have a bunch of games like Nier: Automata, Hellblade: Senua’s Sacrifice, Bloodborne, Control and I found that I can only play them on the weekend. After work, I can only play game like Dirt Rally, Trials Fusion and Apex Legends’ Arena. Where you don’t have to strategize that much and only rely on learnt reflexes. Anything that requires decisions or deciphering clues is impossible.
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by aweiland on Monday October 18, 2021 @10:14AM (#28905620)
You play Trials to relax? ;)
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by skydhash on Sunday October 24, 2021 @11:03PM (#28984102)
When you get better at this kind of technically challenging game, there is a kind of flow that happens when you try to get better at previous challenge. The thinking is very minimal as you are only observing where you can improve. And it's a good feeling when you have indeed improved.
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by Godel_unicode on Sunday October 17, 2021 @01:39AM (#28894245)
Presenting an alternative perspective, I have a high pressure job that requires deep thought (I'm in infosec) and my hobbies are pretty much all about skill/intensity. No judgement if that's what you like, but I find chill/relaxing games to be boring and can't play them for very long without having to go find something more meaningful to do. I enjoy being alone with my thoughts, I just find low-stakes games to be a weird in-between area and while I know they're super popular I just don't get it.

As a sibling comment says, ego depletion research is pretty low quality in terms of reproducibility. Anecdotally, I have never found it to be true for me.

Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by sam0x17 on Sunday October 17, 2021 @02:22AM (#28894391)
Last time I worked in infosec, it was quite slow, depending on what you're doing. AFAIK you're either monitoring things, in which case it only gets interesting when there is an incident, and/or you're doing projects, but they are slow moving because they involve approvals, physical hardware, etc. If you're writing code all day I guarantee you'll feel drained.
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by Godel_unicode on Sunday October 17, 2021 @03:05AM (#28894548)
As I said in the post you replied to, my job is high pressure and requires deep thought. My team writes a ton of code, and there's an on-call rotation where you're dealing with incidents and grooming training sets for our models.

> ...I guarantee you'll feel drained.

You'd lose that bet. Maybe you are, I however find writing code just as interesting and invigorating as I did over a decade ago in university. I do it at work, I do it in my free time both for purpose and for fun.

Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by sam0x17 on Sunday October 17, 2021 @03:38PM (#28899129)
I'm just saying that from experience, I highly doubt there is an infosec job where you have less free time than the average coder. If you have time for deep thinking about problems, you have the kind of time I'm talking about that is super rare _on average_ in the industry.
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by Godel_unicode on Sunday October 17, 2021 @07:45PM (#28900757)
> ...I highly doubt there is an infosec job where...

I understood your point, you're just incorrect. Different people are different, which was my point.

Now that we have that out of the way, I have to ask; are you ok? You seem really invested in this idea that programming is some kind of exhausting, herculean endeavor and that anyone who is a real coder must be exhausted at the end of a day of coding. That is not normal. If you don't enjoy your job I strongly recommend that you look around. Programming is a super valuable skill and I'm sure you can find a job that's more inline with your life.

Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by sam0x17 on Monday October 18, 2021 @01:59PM (#28908596)
I'm more speaking for the average junior dev -- I part-time as a mentor for a coding bootcamp and get to interview thousands of 1st year junior devs on a yearly basis, and the burnout rate is incredible. Contrast that with my time working in infosec, where I had 20-30 hours a week of free time in which to work on random side projects, play call of duty with my boss (literally), etc., while we wait for X thing to be approved or wait for an incident to occur (which might take a whole quarter). When I did the same for the DoD, things were amusingly both less lax and slower.

Now as a CTO at a YC startup, I've created an environment where devs have good work/life balance, time off is encouraged, engineering has significant say and sway on product decisions, etc., but this is by no means the industry norm.

On the infosec side, the industry norm seems to be infosec is largely consolidating as the industry switches to outsourcing everything to public clouds (read: disappearing), and what remains is pretty relaxed unless you are chasing bounties all day, which is typically a self-driven situation. Penetration tests for example seem to have longer timelines these days even though most of the tools are now automated (our startup just went through SOC-2, and I can tell you from the server logs almost all the checks on our staging server happened in the last 72 hours of the evaluation period). My assumption is for the other 26 days of the evaluation they are indeed playing call of duty, and so it goes for the whole infosec industry.

Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by godDLL on Sunday October 17, 2021 @11:26AM (#28897143)
Yes, yes, yes, and no. Not passive.

Low starting effort. Mise en place.

I have similarly found that all of my activities are not things you can do when you're recovering from food poisoning and have massive thick brain fog all day. So I got into gardening, cooking and then baking, improving my own work clothing and putting up shelves around the kitchen and house.

And walking alone. Which is amazing, if you leave your phone at home.

Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by chihuahua on Sunday October 17, 2021 @09:30AM (#28896300)
That's not the case for me. After working on annoying software tasks all day, I like to do a 34-mile/2-hour bike ride. I do this same route very frequently. It's refreshing because it's so completely different from my job.

In contrast, a lot of games feel like work - guess where you're supposed to go or how to solve a problem, fail due to some trivial mistake, retry many times.

Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by boublepop on Monday October 18, 2021 @04:06AM (#28903239)
> Passive activities become the only ones you feel like doing.

Very true. But changing your lifestyle to a high degree is about turning the activities that you like into these “passive activities” like going for a morning run doesn’t feel like something you need to mentally or even physically exert yourself to do for someone who does it regularly 4 times a week.

Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by hyperpallium2 on Sunday October 17, 2021 @01:50AM (#28894281)
Even, predictable difficulty is key. Too easy and it's boring; too hard and it's frustrating. Suddenly, surprisingly difficult is so challenging it's the kind of thing that gets you riches and fame.
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by stevesimmons on Sunday October 17, 2021 @09:20AM (#28896262)
> Passive activities become the only ones you feel like doing.

That's not the case in my experience. After a full day managing teams, solving problems and coding, I find it "relaxing" to do a physically and mentally challenging instructor/coach-led activity.

For me, that means swimming, water polo or other team sport, dance classes learning a complex choreography, etc.

It's relaxing switching off the "I'm in charge" part of my brain, while still getting the flow and enjoyment of improving a skill, especially with others in a non-tech environment.

Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by louis8799 on Sunday October 17, 2021 @03:40AM (#28894679)
It's not like that at least when it comes to running. The more I run, the more will power I have for all the other stuffs.
Re:Pursue High-Quality Leisure by andhuman on Sunday October 17, 2021 @03:48AM (#28894720)
Unless you end up on the bathroom floor, having overexerted yourself. Be kind to yourself people.