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Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by pcstl on Friday October 15, 2021 @03:07PM (#28881775)
It can be used by a different game. The token is just a token, what it means depends on how it's used.

A smart game producer that sees a NFT-based game go down could say "hey, you know all those items you had on <game X>? Come over to my game and you'll get <benefit> based on that stuff!" Since ownership of the token is publicly visible and not locked into Game X's database.

It could also be used by anything else, really.

Lots of ideas where cross-game promotion could be done using NFTs to validate ownership of something in Game A within Game B without requiring the game developers to set up a specific intergame data link.

Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by spywaregorilla on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:20PM (#28882674)
This is a terrible idea

> A smart game producer that sees a NFT-based game go down could say "hey, you know all those items you had on <game X>? Come over to my game and you'll get <benefit> based on that stuff!" Since ownership of the token is publicly visible and not locked into Game X's database.

So... Game X has enabled competitors to steal their customers by not using their own database. What exactly is the benefit here? If it's the same company they can just use their own database.

What if Game X and Game Y decide they don't get along and start to flood the network with items that are worthless in Game X and EXTREMELY VALUABLE in Game Y? There are so many reasons you don't want to cede control of your game world to a competitor company!

> Lots of ideas where cross-game promotion could be done using NFTs to validate ownership of something in Game A within Game B without requiring the game developers to set up a specific intergame data link.

Oh good, all we need is for all games to define their item data on a universal scheme that fits the needs of every single game.

Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by pwinnski on Friday October 15, 2021 @08:58PM (#28884734)
Yeah, as someone who has worked on mobile games, this entire scenario suggests ignorance of how game development works.
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by afavour on Friday October 15, 2021 @03:13PM (#28881852)
I love that idea but the cynical side of me says a game dev wants someone buying new stuff on their platform, not importing already bought stuff.
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by carlosdp on Friday October 15, 2021 @03:19PM (#28881934)
If you let people import their stuff, it's an excellent way to bootstrap a player base, which is the hardest part of game development by far.
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by munk-a on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:20PM (#28882685)
How is this a more effective way to bootstrap a player base than, say, handing out drops on twitch or having seasonal item packs up for free for a limited time on the store (i.e. "Until Nov 1 you can get the Halloween cosmetic pack for free on steam if you own our game"). In all the cases I can think of tying your promotion to an NFT that needed to be earned in a different game is purely going to lower the number of people that this promotion will apply to while not at all lowering the cost in terms of dev time & art (because while an NFT might indicate a Santa Hat you actually need to build that item as an art asset in your game and make sure it's compatible with models and clipping and all that junk).

I feel like most of the NFT arguments I've read in this thread are assuming that somehow using an NFT gets you out of the cost of actually spending the art & dev time on producing the cosmetic - just because it exists in another game doesn't make it appreciably any cheaper to add to your game.

I will admit there are ways to make art more "valuable" by actually limiting the number of available copies - but that trendiness is hard to effectively harness. Beanie Babies took off in the 90s and everyone's brother started buying up newly released ones... almost all of which were worthless because they scaled up their production to meet demand - and if they hadn't they wouldn't have been easy to get a hold of.

Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by dragonwriter on Friday October 15, 2021 @05:07PM (#28883152)
> If you let people import their stuff, it's an excellent way to bootstrap a player base

So, its good for a competitor to the original game developer. What motivates the original developer? If they want to bootstrap a new game feom an old game user base and purchases DB, they can do it without a public database of assets while excluding competitors from the same opportunity.

Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by meheleventyone on Friday October 15, 2021 @03:26PM (#28882015)
But having a business model predicated on user acquisition by timing for a competitor game going out of business doesn’t seem a sensible bootstrapping plan.
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by IanCal on Friday October 15, 2021 @03:31PM (#28882064)
You don't need them to go out of business, people enjoy multiple games.
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by meheleventyone on Friday October 15, 2021 @03:34PM (#28882108)
In this space people tend to have a main game and customer retention is a significant part of revenue. So making your game compatible with a competitor such that they could easily walk away would work against your best interests. Otherwise these co-marketing activities would already exist since there is no inherent need for a blockchain to implement them. A soft example of this is games that include characters from other games.

A lot of these suggestions fall foul of the same problem that they offer a great deal for the customer but not for the game maker. Which whilst altruistic is rather naive to commercial reality.

A value add model like the Amiibo would work better but again is predicated on developers actually capturing some revenue from supporting it.

Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by antifa on Friday October 15, 2021 @05:59PM (#28883614)
> A lot of these suggestions fall foul of the same problem that they offer a great deal for the customer

If you ignore that NFTs are basically a glorfied registry for micro transactions.

This is like buying a $200 refill cup from a movie theater then being allowed to use it at a competing movie theater chain, except the cup isn't real. It was never a good deal, and there's no incentive for theater's to join in.

Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by meheleventyone on Friday October 15, 2021 @06:23PM (#28883829)
Yes my point is that the ideas aren’t viable even if they weren’t suggesting NFTs and that business models exist for similar things that work but wouldn’t for NFTs.
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by IanCal on Saturday October 16, 2021 @04:52AM (#28886490)
> Otherwise these co-marketing activities would already exist since there is no inherent need for a blockchain to implement them.

One of the big changes in the way I've viewed this is because the blockchain we're talking about already exists. A lot of the technology is already there so over time the idea of creating a new shared database and managing it becomes more work than just using some libraries and an existing shared database - even with limitations.

> A value add model like the Amiibo would work better but again is predicated on developers actually capturing some revenue from supporting it.

Selling the game, surely.

Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by meheleventyone on Saturday October 16, 2021 @05:41AM (#28886657)
Amiibo support itself doesn’t sell games so I doubt an NFT equivalent would either. The failure of the whole toys-to-life stuff speaks to this as well.

And that technology exists does not make a notional use of it something people actually want or need. The reason for a lack of co-marketing isn’t a lack of technology as the parts of my post you didn’t quote note.

Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by twic on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:05PM (#28882491)
Were any of the NFT games on Steam before this point doing this?
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by pcstl on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:08PM (#28882542)
You don't need to time it! And this wouldn't be the core business model, just an easy win if/when that happened.
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by meheleventyone on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:14PM (#28882615)
Sure but that is a much weaker case for using NFTs versus doing something similar without them. For example running a free weekend or marketing campaign.
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by louloulou on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:03PM (#28882464)
Exactly, and they're not mutually exclusive. You can still let players buy new stuff on your platform as well as import other value/items.
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by antifa on Friday October 15, 2021 @05:49PM (#28883528)
Why would a dev write a game that detects another game's micro transactions and then give the player the fruit of the dev's labor while ignoring that the other game's devs got the profits of the micro transactions?

This is not a solid business plan.

Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by munk-a on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:01PM (#28882439)
Why would another game ever honor those tokens outside of cosmetic fluff junk? It's like, as an IHoP, agreeing to honor every coupon Denny's issues - like sure, you can grab a bit of extra business that way, but Denny's could also screw you by flooding the market with coupons where they aren't competing.

Also, bear in mind that you still need to cook all those meals (or, rather, do all the art for those cosmetics). And if you're making art you probably want your normal players to be able to give you money for it as well... and you might not want to give it away for free to players just because they supported this other company that's not you.

Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by Goronmon on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:05PM (#28882495)
A smart game producer that sees a NFT-based game go down could say "hey, you know all those items you had on <game X>? Come over to my game and you'll get <benefit> based on that stuff!" Since ownership of the token is publicly visible and not locked into Game X's database.

Why is this better than just "Come over to my game and get all the benefits that everyone gets, even if you didn't play <Game X>!"

Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by andybak on Friday October 15, 2021 @03:25PM (#28881996)
Don't NFTs usually hardcode a URL? Anyone wanting to "adopt" would want to have control of the relevent domains.

Otherwise what's to stop multiple games trying to adopt the same group of NFTs?

Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by aunty_helen on Friday October 15, 2021 @03:55PM (#28882372)
>Otherwise what's to stop multiple games trying to adopt the same group of NFTs?

I feel like you're on the cusp of a penny drop moment here with blockchain

Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by andybak on Saturday October 16, 2021 @12:04PM (#28888810)
> I feel like you're on the cusp of a penny drop moment here with blockchain

And I'm really not sure what you're getting at. This particular use of NFT is as certificate of unique ownership. That's what the original buyer thought they were obtaining.

Now - maybe they shouldn't or maybe they were deluded - but that's currently how NFTs are being marketed.

Isn't it?

Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by IanCal on Friday October 15, 2021 @03:29PM (#28882052)
NFTs have an ID that uniquely identifies them, the URL is just for extra data really.

> Otherwise what's to stop multiple games trying to adopt the same group of NFTs?

Nothing at all. Breaking data out of small silos into one large database opens up possibilities like this.

Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by munk-a on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:04PM (#28882488)
So as a user I could either purchase one of these NFTs and give you money - or just generate my own NFT and use it to get your stuff for free?
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by IanCal on Friday October 15, 2021 @05:08PM (#28883156)
No, the NFTs are uniquely identifiable.
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by munk-a on Friday October 15, 2021 @06:32PM (#28883917)
So if the original issuer of an NFT goes out of business I, as another studio, can't continue to print tokens for the same asset? (I mean I guess I could print a duplicate line - but I couldn't carry on the same line).
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by andybak on Saturday October 16, 2021 @12:06PM (#28888827)
The NFT is unique - not the thing it points to.

Anyone can mint an NFT to point to anything. There's no guarantee beyond what's traceable on the blockchain. Once the NFT "points" to something outside of the blockchain, then all bets are off.

Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by pwinnski on Friday October 15, 2021 @09:00PM (#28884741)
Yeah, as a gamedev, let me rush to do that right away, because, um, well, um, nope.
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by gruez on Friday October 15, 2021 @03:30PM (#28882057)
> Don't NFTs usually hardcode a URL? Anyone wanting to "adopt" would want to have control of the relevent domains.

they hardcode a content-addressable url (eg. ipfs). there's no domains to take over.

Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by IanCal on Friday October 15, 2021 @03:33PM (#28882098)
One example may be unlocking something if you've 100%-ed one or a set of games.
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by munk-a on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:05PM (#28882501)
So you want your game to appeal to users who buy and thoroughly play lots of games (and likely would snap up yours anyways if it was in the same genre) while also discouraging users who are new to the market?
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by IanCal on Friday October 15, 2021 @05:05PM (#28883138)
If requiring you to do stuff for some reward instead of just giving it to you is "discouraging users" in your mind, I think you've missed the point of many games.

Maybe they're all games you made, maybe they're all games built in a community, maybe it's a fan made extension of another game. Those all have reasons you may want to add access to something based on data from another game. Perhaps it's a core mechanic, where puzzles are only solvable by completing tasks in other games. Perhaps it's just letting you play as Guybrush Threepwood if you've played the first Monkey Island.

It doesn't have to be all within games. Gated access to communities perhaps (a speedrunning discord if you've got a certain achievement).

The ingenuity of game devs never ceases to surprise me, and sharing data between programs is fundamental to lots of interesting systems so the idea that sharable data between games provides no utility is odd to me.

Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by munk-a on Friday October 15, 2021 @06:30PM (#28883890)
I don't dislike this sort of unlock system - I think Assassin's Creed Odyssey made a thing of it by letting, for instance, you crew your galley with Enzio wannabes if you'd played through AC2. However, the utility is pretty low and I'd imagine you end up sinking more dev time into the endevour than you're going to reap.

I've worked in the gaming industry. Margins are incredibly tight and the timetables are usually extremely brutal. It'll take time to support different character models and swappable cosmetics have, on multiple occasions, resulted in game exploits. One of the early notable ones was Oddjob in Goldeneye[1] but you also often see clipping bugs where tall characters might clip through no pass boundaries and either insta-kill themselves or find a way to get out of bounds. These things have costs.

1. https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-08-23-21-years-after...

Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by orblivion on Friday October 15, 2021 @03:31PM (#28882073)
This is the first interesting use case for NFTs that I've heard of.
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by serverholic on Friday October 15, 2021 @03:36PM (#28882128)
I'd also like to add that games are only one use-case for NFTs. Recently I saw someone offering NFTs for donating to charity. Incentivizing charity donations is a really cool and creative use-case IMO.
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by lottin on Friday October 15, 2021 @03:59PM (#28882417)
This is like saying someone offered a human sacrifice for donating to charity, therefore incentivising charity donations is one use-case of human sacrifices that is really cool. What?
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by serverholic on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:02PM (#28882452)
You can't be serious. They were offered a simple collectable token. Why is that bad? People get stickers for voting.
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by antifa on Friday October 15, 2021 @06:02PM (#28883641)
I was going to donate $1000 to charity (or nothing to charity), but now I have the option to pay an additional $100 gas/minting fee for a pointless proof-of-wasted-energy token?
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by lottin on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:33PM (#28882846)
I'm not saying that this is either good or bad, I'm simply pointing out that this is not a "use case" of NFTs.
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by munk-a on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:07PM (#28882525)
I feel like that charity incentive still isn't nearly as strong as either 1) the clout, 2) the tax break or 3) just feeling good about themselves.
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by serverholic on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:09PM (#28882563)
One thing that NFTs have taught me is that people love collectables. If that encourages more people to give then what's the problem?
Re:Steam bans all blockchain and NFT games on its platform by munk-a on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:13PM (#28882599)
Oh there's nothing wrong with it - and it might be (much like collectible pins[1]) that this is a thing that can help boost engagement in a profitable manner. But it's just "Gotta Catch'em All"-ism and I wouldn't say it's utterly without value - but there isn't a lot of value there.

1. https://store.penny-arcade.com/collections/pins