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Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by masterof0 on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @03:43PM (#28686630)
> What will the outcome be? Judging by what we did in Afghanistan, not good. I hope we don't send thousands to die and/or kill other people. If they invade the US, we fight, otherwise, we shouldn't be policing the world. I don't see the benefits of a war with China, or any other country at all.
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by emaginniss on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @03:45PM (#28686653)
What if they decide they want to gobble up Taiwan, Vietnam, Japan, Australia, etc? Should we just sit back and say "it's not us, so this is fine?"
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by jjoonathan on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @03:51PM (#28686727)
Does Taiwan have nukes? EDIT: google thinks no.
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by patagurbon on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @04:07PM (#28686903)
No, but they have been identified as a "nuclear latent state", in that they possess the capabilities to create one. How long that latency is I'm sure no one really knows.
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by protomyth on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @09:53PM (#28689449)
Hasn't the rumor always been that they got a nuke from Israel or South Africa?
[dead]
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by emaginniss on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @04:17PM (#28686991)
Perhaps you haven't noticed that China has been building islands and claiming the sea around them. In fact, they claim the entire South China Sea as territorial waters. They routinely send their fishing fleets into the legitimate territorial waters of other nations. As they are starting to struggle again with the size of their population, expansion will seem like a natural solution.
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by sudosysgen on Wednesday September 29, 2021 @12:03PM (#28695571)
The SCS is not claimed as territorial waters. In fact the claims are purposefully vague not just in content but also in scope in order to make it easy for China to negotiate them down in exchange for various concessions.
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by justicezyx on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @04:25PM (#28687066)
> China has been building islands and claiming the sea around them

Of cuz, that's known everywhere. Chinese netizens are ecstatic about this ingenious move that fenced off SEA countries from meddling the water area in any way that could affect China's claim over them.

> They routinely send their fishing fleets into the legitimate territorial waters of other nations

They are just self directed business man. Just like the numerous business man who invaded almost every Asian countries in the early 1900s. These fisherman would have been invading all-over the places if they were in 1900 as well.

Of cuz, not like the 1900s, these fisherman are not going to be protected (very strongly) by their home country when they were caught.

> they are starting to struggle again with the size of their population, expansion will seem like a natural solution.

Well, almost everyone is expecting the population to be dwindling from now on. A lot have calling the recent census fake, because they all expect a population drop.

Not sure why this population driven expansnism holds itself...

Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @04:40PM (#28687203)
> Hi, propagandist?

Personal attacks are against site rules, and you've been here long enough that you should know that.

> China had no ambition for territorial expansion other than defending herself. That's the pattern for 2 thousands years.

China occupied Tibet. China invaded Vietnam twice. The first time, they stayed for a thousand years. "China has no ambition for territorial expansion" only if you accept China's definition of what is rightfully China. A bunch of us don't, though. For that matter, a bunch of nations don't.

Specifically with regard to Taiwan: Yes, China has a historical claim on Taiwan. (And, yes, Taiwan has a historical claim on the mainland.) Technically, as you say it is a civil war.

Practically, it's two countries. They have two militaries, issue two different passports, have two different currencies, etc. Neither one wants to admit this, but de facto they are two separate countries. (So are North and South Korea, even though that civil war legally isn't over either.)

So, legal fictions aside, for China to conquer Taiwan would be a dramatic increase of their actual territory. (That's kind of implied in the word "conquer".)

And it's clearly China that's the aggressor here. Nobody's talking about Taiwan invading and conquering the mainland. But China talks about invading if Taiwan even dares to say that they're a separate country. They act like, if we all play pretend with them, it makes their claim more legitimate or something.

Speaking of legitimacy, let's note that Taiwan is the legitimate government of China. The mainland is held by the rebels.

Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by dotancohen on Wednesday September 29, 2021 @04:43AM (#28691557)

  > only if you accept China's definition of what is rightfully China.
And under what pretense do you or your government have more authority to declare "what is rightfully China" than the Chinese?
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday September 29, 2021 @01:17PM (#28696803)
What authority does China have to declare that Tibet is China? Taiwan? Everything inside the 9-Dashed-Line? What reason do we have to accept China's authority to declare that foreign territory is in fact part of China?

In the same way, when the bank robber says that he was just withdrawing his own money, we do not accept that the bank robber has authority to declare "what is rightfully his money".

Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by dirtyid on Wednesday September 29, 2021 @02:10PM (#28697626)
China has dejure claims over Tibet and Taiwan. So it's more like a person who legitimate has access to their bank account wants to make withdraws after not touching the account for a while. But some nosy folks are butthurt because they falsely think it's black money or there's some mythical expiration date on legal ownership, tries to paint it as such, goes out of the way to prevent it, even though lawfully PRC is in the clear. SCS is an inheritance dispute, which other parties decided to involve arbituation that China didn't accede to.

But the practical answer is, under Westphalian order whose principles are enshrined in UN Charter (again the organizing order post war), PRC has authority to declare whatever she wants within her domestic jurisdiction, of which Tibet and Taiwan is formally recognized to be part of. UN has no position on legal/procedural merits PCA/UNCLOS ruling for SCS. That's a messy situation that gets resolved same way all territorial problems in Westphalian order gets resolved in lieu of treaty/accord that formally assigns ownership, territorial control with lots of force. So Chinese authority is derived from the same post war order as everyone else.

Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by rini17 on Wednesday September 29, 2021 @04:46AM (#28691569)
That's exactly what governments do.

And private persons with human rights have the authority to name territorial conquest by its rightful name.

Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by dotancohen on Wednesday September 29, 2021 @06:29AM (#28692022)
Alright then. With the authority vested in my by HN comment #28691569 (2021-09-29, rini17) I hereby declare all expansion ambitions of the United States of America on the North American continent after 1776 as territorial conquest. Furthermore, I declare all United Nations military presence on soil not under US control in 1776, especially soil not on the North American continent, to be territorial conquest.
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by rini17 on Wednesday September 29, 2021 @07:25AM (#28692326)
Now notice how no one is going to "harmonize" you.
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by sudosysgen on Wednesday September 29, 2021 @12:04PM (#28695593)
Not anymore that it is an unshakable fact and it doesn't matter what you think. Go back in 1790 or 1810 and see yourself jailed as a traitor.
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by rini17 on Thursday September 30, 2021 @07:47AM (#28705260)
Can you restate that? I honestly don't understand.
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by sudosysgen on Thursday September 30, 2021 @01:22PM (#28708761)
If you had stated as much in times where the status of NA was actually at stake instead of now when it doesn't matter what you think, the US authorities and US society in general would not have been happy.
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by rini17 on Saturday October 02, 2021 @04:34AM (#28727050)
Even in deepest times of such "unhapiness", dissenters were not suddenly vanishing like they do now in China.
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by dotancohen on Wednesday September 29, 2021 @07:38AM (#28692411)
Can you restate that? I honestly don't understand.
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by justicezyx on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @04:45PM (#28687266)
I think we are just speaking the same thing.

You might assume that I sided with China mainland. Well, that not where I stand. Neither do I side with Taiwan, nor US.

I stand with the safety and prosperity of people.

Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by masterof0 on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @06:54PM (#28688414)
It doesn't matter, you are not allowed to point out hypocrisy, as is not immoral to criticize another government while your own kills children with drone strikes. Is the way it is, I learned the good old *downvoted* way. There is, it seems, a list of things you cannot criticize over here: Rust, US, React JS, Firefox, Elon Musk, Tesla, etc...
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by masterof0 on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @04:22PM (#28687040)
Are they going to gobble up Japan, Australia and Vietnam tho? I'd say nope, doesn't makes sense, for them. What's up with the war fetish? Do you enjoy watching people killing each other? I really don't understand.
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by bllguo on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @04:27PM (#28687089)
I think citizens of the most violent nation in recent history should do some introspection before projecting their misdeeds onto others..
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by evilos on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @04:48PM (#28687304)
"What if X happens?"

"Shut up, Y is bad."

Uh.

Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by bllguo on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @06:01PM (#28688031)
Okay, then give me the reasons to believe in imminent Chinese military aggression. And why I should take the word of a nation that has been basically ceaselessly at war for decades, off the heels of yet another senseless conflict in Afghanistan.

I think you are projecting the warlike tendencies of the US onto China.

Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by evilos on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @08:19PM (#28688969)
That's not even what is being discussed. The question is: what is the proper response to a hyper aggressive China?

No one is saying something like that is likely. We are discussing hypotheticals. There's no need to be so upset.

Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by dotancohen on Wednesday September 29, 2021 @04:46AM (#28691575)
> what is the proper response to a hyper aggressive China?

I believe that GP is trying to generalize that question to "what is the proper response to any hyper aggressive nation". And the fact that the answer to that question will have more profound effects on responses to the US than to China.

In fact, I think that the question is valid. Limiting the discussion to China is blatant anti-Chinese propaganda. Broadening the discussion to "hyper aggressive nations" is fair and legitimate.

Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by coupdejarnac on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @07:48PM (#28688783)
Are you completely oblivious to China's provocations in the South China sea? I know how things are being spun back in China, but I assume you occasionally read non-CCP-approved news, right?
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by FpUser on Wednesday September 29, 2021 @01:14AM (#28690506)
>"but I assume you occasionally read non-CCP-approved news, right?"

I assume your reading list is approved in Langley

Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by randomopining on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @06:21PM (#28688174)
Nope. False premise. US is the best we have.
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by throwaway6734 on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @04:35PM (#28687166)
How recent is recent history?
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @04:44PM (#28687258)
Clearly more recent than April 15th, 1989.
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by bllguo on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @05:56PM (#28687996)
Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, coup after coup in South America - you think Tiananmen was more reprehensible than any of these?

I'll also remind you Tiananmen was internal, whereas all of our wars are just that - wars. Directed against other nations.

edit: to clarify, I don't see how Tiananmen suggests China will go to war, but I do see how a sordid history of spurring violence across the globe suggests the US will go to war again.

Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by zeusk on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @05:13PM (#28687608)
or the on-going uyghur concentration camps
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by bllguo on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @05:46PM (#28687910)
at least a century?
Re:Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden by mrlonglong on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @05:49PM (#28687937)
On the other hand, if China was to adopt the Taiwainese constitution and embrace democracy then yes, they could reunify.