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Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by raducu on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @05:08AM (#28603258)
So, two early cities were destroyed by meteorites in the Bronze age, when there were very few cities world wide.

And that's it, as cities kept poping out everywhere, this never happened again.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by kuschku on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @05:25AM (#28603332)
Neolithic and Bronze Age settlements existed for tens of millenia, while modern cities only existed for 2½ millenia.

Between Abu Hereya (10'800 BC) and Tall el-Hammam (1'650 BC) there was a 9'000 year gap.

Of course you’re going to get more cosmic events if you wait a longer time.

EDIT: The article discusses the potential impact at Tall el-Hammam in 1'650 BC, which also covered Jericho. A second impact at Abu Hereya in 10'800 BC is only mentioned, but not discussed in detail.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by javajosh on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @07:32AM (#28603985)
This is reverse survivorship bias. There were probably bolides a'plenty, it's just they took down some trees, killed some animals, and interrupted a villagers sleep. There would be no record of such an event.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by gatronicus on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:36AM (#28604417)
We should be able to find the impact geological records and build a probability model.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by javajosh on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:47AM (#28604531)
Did even Tunguska have a geological impact? And also, since 75% of the Earth is covered in water, it stands to reason that 75% of bolides exploded over an ocean, with literally no impact we could meaningfully measure.

My point is that human cities are "bolide sensors" and unevenly distributed in time and space, so the "measurements" are necessarily fewer than what occurs in nature.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by staplung on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @10:31AM (#28605355)
Best definition of a city ever: “bolide sensor”. Love it
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by heavyset_go on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:26PM (#28610800)
Yes, there is geological evidence that the Tunguska event was a bolide explosion.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by jacquesm on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @10:37AM (#28605432)
trees flattened in a radial pattern might show up in the geological record somehow.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by gota on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @12:34PM (#28606794)
Unlikely after several years, let alone several thousands, right?
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by bell-cot on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @04:13PM (#28609370)
It would require coordinated excavation over how many square miles, to spot the radial pattern? (Assuming, as gota points out, that the fallen trees were somehow preserved.)

Then there's bolides over desert, savanna, tundra, ice sheets, etc.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by dogma1138 on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:51AM (#28604551)
Impacts of this size don’t leave enough evidence for you to know where to look, especially after 1000’s of years of man caused and natural erosion.

An air burst impact that’s large enough to take out a city won’t leave a major impact crater. And back in the day it might even be the case of the perceived cause contributing more to the decline of a city or even an empire than the physical damage.

If a meteor hit blows up your town when you have no ability to comprehend what just happened other than god/gods are angry you gonna move to a less cursed place.

It can also cause social impacts such as the toppling of a given religious or leadership class because they angered the gods.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by koheripbal on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @10:54AM (#28605634)
OP's analysis demonstrates that it's very possible to detect theses events 1000s of years later, if you examine areas near the explosion.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by gota on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @12:36PM (#28606822)
Yes, but they are testing the area because we know a settlement there was destroyed. We'd have to test random uninhabited (or at least currently uninhabited) areas for which there are no indications of anything special to get a better picture

And not even that guarantees a complete picture - what if a tsunami event erases or conceals the record of something like this? Volcanic activity? Desertification?

My point is that we can't reason about the rarity or uniqueness of these events as a main factor for accepting or refuting the hypothesis

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by pvg on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:09AM (#28603539)
We don't really have evidence of settlements lasting tens of millennia. Plus, there weren't that many people about. The estimates of human population just 10k BCE are about that of LA County - 10 million-ish.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by kuschku on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:37AM (#28603673)
Not individual settlements, but roughly the same areas stay populated over the whole timeframe. And while there were less humans around, they were still distributed over the whole world.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by pvg on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:59AM (#28603771)
A simple counter-example to both 'same areas stay populated' and 'humans were all over the world' is human migration to the Americas which started, let's say 20kya, at the very low end of your 'tens of millennia' scale.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by rini17 on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:28AM (#28603634)
Even if that were true, what is your point? Where did these 10m people live if not in settlements?
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by pvg on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:38AM (#28603681)
They didn't live in permanent settlements, no, never mind ones that lasted tens of thousands of years. That is my point.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by rini17 on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:44AM (#28603709)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_continuously_in... lists several cities already established (with walls) around 3000 BC. Why they would not be inhabitated millenia before? Just because we don't have written records?
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by pvg on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:49AM (#28603729)
Mostly because they hadn't invented agriculture, a less-than-10k-years-old development.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by kuschku on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @07:19AM (#28603896)
The city of Abu Herey was destroyed 10'800 BC, almost three millenia before the timeframe you just stated for the first cities.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by pvg on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @07:40AM (#28604030)
Do you mean this site?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_Abu_Hureyra

It's a unique site of possible early long-term hunter-gatherer settlement right in the middle of one of the regions in which agriculture was first developed. It also happens to be one of the first agricultural sites! The pre-agricultural populations we're talking about are a few hundred people, which feels a little short of a city.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by nl on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @09:05AM (#28604651)
Abu Hureyra 1 was hardly a city - more a collection of huts.

And it's one of the earliest examples of the transition from nomadic hunter gathers to more permanent settlements.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by bsanr2 on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:51AM (#28604556)
Agriculture isn't the only way to sustain moderately-sized populations, it's just the most efficient in the short term. Semi-passive cultivation is arguably more sustainable because you don't encounter the issues of deforestation, soil depletion, and centralization of resources.

Nomadism doesn't preclude semi-permanent settlements, especially as migratory patterns retrace sites.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by danans on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @10:42AM (#28605493)
> Agriculture isn't the only way to sustain moderately-sized populations, it's just the most efficient in the short term. Semi-passive cultivation is arguably more sustainable

There is a theory by Jared Diamond [1] of how pre-Agricultural Jomon people of Japan were able to invent pottery 18K years ago: the wild-food rich environment of Japan, being moist, temperate, and surrounded by ocean - allowed them to have very settled lives while other hunter gatherers had to constantly move.

Outside of rate examples like this, there is little evidence that non agricultural societies reached even moderate populations.

1. https://erenow.net/common/gunsgermssteel/23.php

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by nl on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @09:08AM (#28604671)
Semi permanent sites did exist in this timeframe. But they were much smaller in terms of population and rarely (if ever) walled cities like those which existed around 4000 BCE.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by pvg on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @09:24AM (#28604784)
Completely agree with you that agriculture is not required to form non-permanent settlements that didn't last tens of thousands of years.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by bsanr2 on Monday September 27, 2021 @09:18AM (#28670287)
A non-permanent settlement conceivably could see continuous (non-permanent) habitation for thousands of years. If, as a semi-nomadic group, you return to the same location year after year, generation after generation, and you do so alongside a large number of nearby settlements, with whom you maintain social relationships... Well, it might not have a post office or gate, but it's a dynamic fulfills many of the requirements of a "city".
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by kuschku on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @10:32AM (#28605376)
No one said it had to be a single, year-round, uninterrupted settlement. A seasonal, interrupted, settlement would be no different to an asteroid.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by ascar on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:55AM (#28604579)
I would recommend reading Yuval Noah Harari's "Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind". It's really enlightening about the early days of human kind and even gives a new perspective for recent/current developments.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by BurningFrog on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:44AM (#28604496)
I think most people were nomadic hunter gatherers until agriculture was invented, binding them to their fields.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by raducu on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @05:41AM (#28603412)
Does that mean there were two airbursts and not just one in the same place 9000 years apart?

Not disputing that, but my interpretation would be that there was just one airburst that covered both cities.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by kuschku on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @05:50AM (#28603444)
Jericho and Tall el-Hammam were destroyed in the same airburst, in the same place (~22km distance, ~same time).

Abu Hereya (several hundred kilometers away, 9000 years earlier) was also discussed in the article, and is a separate impact.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by yosito on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:39AM (#28603682)
Jericho? Isn't that the city with the biblical story of God knocking down the walls from the inside out? I wonder if there's a connection.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by yxhuvud on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @07:02AM (#28603787)
The more obvious connection is with Sodom & Gomorra being destroyed by divine wrath. Evidence of high temperatures and increased salinity..
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by 13of40 on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:30AM (#28604367)
Having driven through Sodom, which is situated on the dead end of the dead sea, next to the apocalyptic salt factory they have there, it boggles my mind that you would be able to measure "increased salinity". What I'm saying is the dirt itself is half salt.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by dhosek on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @09:21AM (#28604769)
"Apocalyptic salt factory" in Sodom creates an image in my mind of a factory whose salt comes from the pillars of salt left behind by all the people leaving Sodom but stopping to look back.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by BurningFrog on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:47AM (#28604523)
That's what you'd expect after an "increased salinity" event.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by dr_zoidberg on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:29AM (#28604353)
The linked study mentions the possibility of Tall el-Hammam being Sodom, but they specifically say thats a whole line of study in itself and they won't go into details in the paper.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by yxhuvud on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @09:17AM (#28604747)
Yes, they did avoid derailing the study very nicely.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by Arech on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @11:59AM (#28617919)
It worth actually to follow links to Abu Hureyra paper [1] to learn that this event is considered not as a solitary impact, but just one in a series of events across four continents. Abu Hureyra's paper also reference paper [2] with a telling name "Evidence for deposition of 10 million tonnes of impact spherules across four continents 12,800 y ago". Here's a fragment of conclusion from that paper:

"The geographical extent of the (Younger Drias) YD impact is limited by the range of sites available for study to date and is presumably much larger, because we have found consistent, supporting evidence over an increasingly wide area. The nature of the impactor remains unclear, although we suggest that the most likely hypothesis is that of multiple airbursts/impacts by a large comet or asteroid that fragmented in solar orbit, as is common for nearly all comets. The YD impact at 12.8 ka is coincidental with major environmental events, including abrupt cooling at the YD onset, major extinction of some end-Pleistocene megafauna, disappearance of Clovis cultural traditions, widespread biomass burning, and often, the deposition of dark, carbon-rich sediments (black mat). It is reasonable to hypothesize a relationship between these events and the YDB impact, although much work remains to understand the causal mechanisms."

[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-60867-w

[2] https://www.pnas.org/content/110/23/E2088

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by nkoren on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @05:40AM (#28603406)
Here's another one, 1490 in China: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1490_Ch%27ing-yang_event

And of course if the 2013 Chelyabinsk bolide had been just a bit larger, then the city would no longer exist. (Larger size = lower airburst, so even a modest increase in megatonnage can result in substantially more energy transferred to the ground).

And there are other recent city-killer-size impacts that are well-known but fortunately didn't have cities underneath them, such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campo_del_Cielo

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by sva_ on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @07:49AM (#28604081)
> And of course if the 2013 Chelyabinsk bolide had been just a bit larger, then the city would no longer exist.

Looked it up, from Wikipedia:

> The power of the explosion was about 500 kilotons of TNT (about 1.8 PJ), which is 20–30 times more energy than was released from the atomic bomb detonated in Hiroshima. The city managed to avoid large casualties and destruction due to the high altitude of the explosion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelyabinsk#2013_meteor

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by gatronicus on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:39AM (#28604447)
The speed of detonation also matters, a meteorite detonation is surely slower than a nuclear bomb which releases the energy in milliseconds.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by pja on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @06:15AM (#28614711)
This quite strongly depends on the composition of the metorite and the angle at which it enters the atmosphere.

The Chelyablinsk meteor entered at a very shallow angle & was a chondrite with little internal strngth, so it disintegrated over a longer distance forming a “line burst” rather than a single point airburst.

Had it entered more steeply, then it would have concentrated it’s KE over a much smaller area, causing much more damage.

A nuclear bomb may take a few ms, but after a few 100ms, you’ve got a dense, hot plasma in a small volume. Sounds a lot like the result of a metorite airburst! And indeed, people use the same codes that are used to model nuclear explosions to model meteor airbursts.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by Arech on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @12:15PM (#28618150)
Moreover to that - as far as I understand the Tall el-Hammam's paper, the only reason why they ruled out nuclear explosion is "because of the age of the site". Other than that (as I understand), it's indistinguishable.

Even though an atomic bomb blast is not applicable because of the historic absence of atomic explosions in the area, an atomic blast produces a wide range of melt products that are morphologically indistinguishable from the melted material found at TeH (Fig. 51). These include shocked quartz64; melted and decorated zircon grains (Fig. 51a, b); globules of melted material (Fig. 51c, d); meltglass containing large vesicles lined with Fe-rich crystals likely deposited by vapor deposition (Fig. 51e, f); spherules embedded in a meltglass matrix (Fig. 51g, h). Also, atomic detonations can replicate the physical destruction of buildings, the human lethality, and the incineration of a city, as occurred in World War II.

added: though, I forget to mention, that they also found many chemical elements and compositions that are hard to find under normal conditions (atomic bomb tests included as I understood), but abundant in meteorites.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by yongjik on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @01:56PM (#28607720)
On a tangential note, I find it wild that we have so little record of such an extraordinary event that happened as recent as 1490 (when China was prospering under a unified empire): sounds like historians were writing "It was reported that stones rained down from the sky, killing ten thousand, in an obscure town in Gansu province. Anyway, back to the court..."
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by joshuaissac on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @05:33AM (#28603365)
> And that's it, as cities kept poping out everywhere, this never happened again.

I don't think this claim is supported by the article. There have been other cosmic air bursts, like the 1490 Ch'ing-yang event, which had a large number of casualties: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1490_Ch%27ing-yang_event

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by raducu on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @05:38AM (#28603388)
Yeah, that's a claim I made, out of ignorance.

It seems the chinese were lucky like the russians while the Bronze Age folks were not so lucky.

So I guess we should invest more in asteroid defense.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by nkoren on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @05:47AM (#28603431)
We should. I've seen an analysis which concluded that your chances of dying in a meteor impact are about the same as your chances of dying in a car crash -- eg., really quite high. This doesn't sound right, because at as an individual, you're obviously far more likely to die in a car crash -- it's extremely unlikely that you'll personally die from a meteor impact. However in the very rare event that you are killed by an impact, then there's a very high probability that anywhere from tens of thousands to tens of millions will also be killed by the same event. So overall the numbers roughly balance out, and are high enough to be worth taking seriously.

Fortunately there are groups that are doing just that: https://b612foundation.org/

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by vkou on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:13AM (#28603555)
The main problem here is that detecting a city-killer meteor before it hits you is incredibly difficult, which really puts a damper on your ROI.

Meteors large enough to detect are both incredibly rare, and are very difficult to deal with, and meteors too small to detect will hit you before you see them.

Not to mention that any detection will come with very large uncertainty bars. Suppose that you somehow discover that a ~500 KT meteor (Like the Chelyabinsk bolide - which was only ~20 meters across - good luck figuring out an accurate orbit for it) is an impact risk. The overwhelming majority of the Earth is covered with water. The overwhelming majority of the rest is... Not densely populated. And observations put it at a 0.5% chance of striking the Earth next year, with zero ability to predict which part of the Earth will be struck.

That's the most likely outcome of a detection program. Not '100% chance', not '90% chance', but a '0.5% chance of a rock that's scary only if you're in its immediate path'. Is that worth doing anything about?

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by ClumsyPilot on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @07:15AM (#28603868)
What's the cost of a nuclear missile (or X chosen method?) Whats the cost of NYC turning in a smoldering crater * 0.5% (or whatever)?

The cost of all rockets ever launched is a pittance compared to NYC real estate

Also there is a project for a space telescooe spesifically designed to locate asteroids, its not that difficult or even expensive.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinel_Space_Telescope

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by dr_zoidberg on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:33AM (#28604392)
Having nuclear missiles ready at all times, all over the world (near populated areas) is a risk on its own... In a politically stable world without conflicts, sure, but we haven't had that kind of world for centuries...
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by rscoots on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @10:39AM (#28605451)
Why would they have to be stored near populated areas for this purpose?

Even if you were gonna hit the meteor during significant downward trajectory (which seems unlikely), that would still have to be done at quite a distance from the impact location.

Also wondering when there was ever a "politically stable world without conflicts"

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by kadoban on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @09:12AM (#28604704)
That's true, but we already have that. There's nukes all over the place. Not in all countries, but many.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by yesenadam on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @09:47AM (#28604982)
> Not in all countries, but many.

In 9 out of 195 countries.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by kadoban on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @10:13AM (#28605188)
True (I think? Right ballpark anyway). But, how much of the population does that cover? Between China and India to start with, should be quite a lot. And then you have alliances, the US has nukes in Europe and submarines a bunch of places.

And that's just all the publicly known ones.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by dr_zoidberg on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @10:21AM (#28605245)
You're not wrong. Possibly the biggest issue would be how can you quickly launch one of these without triggering WW3.

Another issue I'm thinking is that I don't know the state of the art of meteor/bolide trajectory estimation (it's apparently very poor), so you'd probably need to fire a bunch of these (or a very large one) along an (uncertain) path hoping for it to affect the impactor.

So this is just more of the same problem: how do you fire a barrage of nuclear missiles over a region to stop an impactor in such a way that you're not mistaken for a madman starting nuclear war?

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by ClumsyPilot on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @12:49PM (#28606950)
This discussion is all wrong - nuking an approaching asteroid is like shooting an approaching freight train - it's too late to stop.

The asteroid needs to be pushed with a nuke, or another method, while it's still in deep space, months or years before it would strike. It would be many times beyong the orbit of the moon, millions of kilometers.

ICBMs are for ground targets, their "reach" is a thousand kilometers or so, they have no navigation or tsrgeting for space.

Instead a spacecraft like Rosetta would to be equipped with a nuke and launched on a normal space rocket like Falcon 9 or Ariane or Soyuz. We only need to produce a couple of them in case of launch failure, we don't need thousands of them like we have ICBMs. The launch would not look anything like an ICBM launch, it does not come back to earth.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by raducu on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @03:00AM (#28613758)
It depends on the asteroid size.

Afik, there's a very abrupt limit on the size of an asteroid where if it's larger it will "touch" the ground and if it's smaller, it airbursts.

So if we could split the asteroid in 10, maybe we go from "completely destroy everything within a 100 miles radius" to 10 Chelyabinsk events.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by dr_zoidberg on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @09:16AM (#28615935)
For asteroids that can be detected with lots of time, yes, deflecting them with time is totally the way to go. As the discussion was with bolides, I assumed we were talking in an "impending danger, no time to act" framework.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @12:03PM (#28617979)
In this context 'Lost of time' means years in advance, so you can finetune it's orbit.

'Impeding danger' means weeks or days at a minimum, so you have to use a nuke. It would be near moon's orbit.

If it's a bolide, it's in the atmosphere, moving faster than any missile. Its like trying to stop a bullet after it intered you epidemis - you already lost.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by dr_zoidberg on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @12:21PM (#28618246)
I understand that bolides would be the biggest danger right now, as they are small enough to be practically undetectable, but may be large enough to level a city. Are there any measures we can take against them? [0]

[0] I'm aware one of our best bets here would be a proper survey and sensitive enough telescopes/satellites actively looking for these kind of objects. And that there are some projects and programs along these lines already. It'd seem there's some more work to be done in that area though.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by kadoban on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @10:27AM (#28605320)
Yeah that's a real problem, or several. Not even sure which would be the hardest to solve...

Am I wrong to wonder if a nuke would even do it either? I mean it's a ~solid rock that's capaple of surviving a pretty good beating from the atmosphere. What's a nuke going to do exactly? Are we hoping for redirection, or destruction or?

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by cuspycode on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @02:31PM (#28608154)
As I understand it, redirection is our best hope. Destruction via nukes would only work for comparatively small rocks. There is a fairly comprehensive write-up of the various options on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_impact_avoidance

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by ericbarrett on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @10:25AM (#28605294)
Would even the largest nuke do much to a 50m-wide chunk of iron traveling at 20+ km/s?
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by ClumsyPilot on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @01:00PM (#28607087)
Earth travels around the Sun at 30 km/s, delay an asteroid by 4 minutes and it will miss completely.

If your nuke can slow the asteroid from 20km/s to 19.9 km/s, then you need to nuke it 6 days before it hits earth.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by VLM on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @11:25AM (#28605970)
The global reaction to COVID is highly relevant to this discussion. As with covid the secondary and tertiary effects will be vastly greater than the primary effects.

There is a fascinating logistics and timing feature to this whole topic. Aside from global panic'd masses. There is a huge logistical difference between sudden and unplanned electrical grid shutdown and subsequent black start vs a pre-planned five minutes outage (assuming we can predict impact to five minutes). Another interesting electrical utility issue is the radiological damage from a melted-down nuclear power plant varies exponentially with time... There's a huge difference in expected damage between whacking the coolant pumps a month in advance vs a day in advance vs a minute of warning vs no warning at all just no coolant flow.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by jtwaleson on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @10:56PM (#28612671)
About the water part: Historically you are completely right, but with the crazy amount of global shipping in the 21st century, I think lots of sea impacts would be detected and/or sink a couple of ships. Take a look at vessel finder and you'll see that there are only a few areas where ships are really far apart.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by noisy_boy on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:12AM (#28604233)
Veritasium did pretty good video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wrc4fHSCpw
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by rsynnott on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @05:54AM (#28603462)
There was also the Tunguska incident (no city) and a recent near miss: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelyabinsk_meteor

And this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Sulawesi_superbolide

They happen every now and again; of course normally they're not close enough to a city to be a big problem, but over ten millennia...

And, I mean, what's the alternative explanation? Bronze Age nuclear war? You'd have a hell of a time making an ICBM out of bronze :)

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by dboreham on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:05AM (#28604181)
It would look magnificent in the May day parade though.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by q1w2 on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @09:18AM (#28604753)
It does seem strange that the impact was so close to a city. Statistically, this would infer that many many of these impacts have happened all over the place, and there's not much evidence of that.

Another fun theory is that there's an alien berserker in far solar orbit that is periodically sending asteroids to Earth to stunt human development while a more powerful device is dispatched to exterminate us. This would imply that additional "events" are immanent. ...food for thought.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by meowface on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @09:23AM (#28604780)
I think such an alien adversary would have been more than capable of wiping out humans long ago if they already had the capabilities to direct asteroids toward us. (And also travel the very vast distance to get to us.)

I could maybe believe it if they were throwing them for fun / to study how we react. Which might go in line with the theories that many "UFOlogists" espouse: that sightings are sporadic and rare because aliens are basically pranksters trolling us all. (For the record, I find this pretty contrived, and I believe the far more likely explanation is that there haven't ever been any visitations.)

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by q1w2 on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @09:34AM (#28604872)
If you assume that berserkers are difficult to produce and disperse throughout the galaxy, then you might conclude that they have limited capabilities.

Perhaps after detecting intelligent life and reporting it, perhaps it attached itself to the largest convenient asteroid/comet, and altered it's orbit just so to stunt human development just enough to allow for a more complete extermination ship to be dispatched.

Like a galactic immune system - suicide berserkers designed to signal the human infection, and then suicide themselves to slow the disease evolution.

The galaxy is many billions of years old. I would not rule out the development of such a system.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by meowface on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @10:51AM (#28605601)
The fact that the galaxy is billions of years old is one part of what would lead me to think that such an immune system would destroy the entire planet, or at least kill all life on it, with the very first projectile/attack.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by apetrov on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @09:44AM (#28604961)
sounds like a scenario of Starship troopers rather than a food for thought.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by jjk166 on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @10:00AM (#28605081)
Not really. People at this time lived with a much lower population density. Our modern cities that can house millions of people within a few square miles are only possible because of advanced infrastructure for transporting water, food, and waste, and only desirable because of our industrial society where all these people can work in close proximity.

In ancient times, people were much more limited by the distribution of resources, so rather than one big city, they'd have lots of smaller settlements. Note that most ancient "cities" would be small towns by modern standards - Jerusalem for example had a population of around 5000 inhabitants around 1000 BCE. Pretty much every place where there could be such a settlement, there would be.

Thus in that period, if you picked a random spot on earth, the odds that there would be a (by the standards of the day) dense population center in close proximity would be much higher than today.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @09:24AM (#28604789)
> ...food for thought.

Is it though? Isn't food for thought something you're supposed to think about? I'm not going to spend much time pondering a petulant alien overlord scenario, especially considering that humanity would probably qualify for a rock or two from such a being as of late and none have been forthcoming.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by himinlomax on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:06AM (#28603521)
Keep in mind the bronze age lasted a long time, over 2000 years.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by rollo on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @05:33AM (#28603366)
Poisson clumping.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by tokai on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @05:24AM (#28603327)
That's stochastic events for ya.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by erdewit on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:00AM (#28603492)
Could it have been ancient aliens ?!!!?....