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Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by kuschku on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @05:25AM (#28603332)
Neolithic and Bronze Age settlements existed for tens of millenia, while modern cities only existed for 2½ millenia.

Between Abu Hereya (10'800 BC) and Tall el-Hammam (1'650 BC) there was a 9'000 year gap.

Of course you’re going to get more cosmic events if you wait a longer time.

EDIT: The article discusses the potential impact at Tall el-Hammam in 1'650 BC, which also covered Jericho. A second impact at Abu Hereya in 10'800 BC is only mentioned, but not discussed in detail.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by javajosh on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @07:32AM (#28603985)
This is reverse survivorship bias. There were probably bolides a'plenty, it's just they took down some trees, killed some animals, and interrupted a villagers sleep. There would be no record of such an event.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by gatronicus on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:36AM (#28604417)
We should be able to find the impact geological records and build a probability model.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by javajosh on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:47AM (#28604531)
Did even Tunguska have a geological impact? And also, since 75% of the Earth is covered in water, it stands to reason that 75% of bolides exploded over an ocean, with literally no impact we could meaningfully measure.

My point is that human cities are "bolide sensors" and unevenly distributed in time and space, so the "measurements" are necessarily fewer than what occurs in nature.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by staplung on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @10:31AM (#28605355)
Best definition of a city ever: “bolide sensor”. Love it
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by heavyset_go on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:26PM (#28610800)
Yes, there is geological evidence that the Tunguska event was a bolide explosion.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by jacquesm on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @10:37AM (#28605432)
trees flattened in a radial pattern might show up in the geological record somehow.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by gota on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @12:34PM (#28606794)
Unlikely after several years, let alone several thousands, right?
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by bell-cot on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @04:13PM (#28609370)
It would require coordinated excavation over how many square miles, to spot the radial pattern? (Assuming, as gota points out, that the fallen trees were somehow preserved.)

Then there's bolides over desert, savanna, tundra, ice sheets, etc.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by dogma1138 on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:51AM (#28604551)
Impacts of this size don’t leave enough evidence for you to know where to look, especially after 1000’s of years of man caused and natural erosion.

An air burst impact that’s large enough to take out a city won’t leave a major impact crater. And back in the day it might even be the case of the perceived cause contributing more to the decline of a city or even an empire than the physical damage.

If a meteor hit blows up your town when you have no ability to comprehend what just happened other than god/gods are angry you gonna move to a less cursed place.

It can also cause social impacts such as the toppling of a given religious or leadership class because they angered the gods.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by koheripbal on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @10:54AM (#28605634)
OP's analysis demonstrates that it's very possible to detect theses events 1000s of years later, if you examine areas near the explosion.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by gota on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @12:36PM (#28606822)
Yes, but they are testing the area because we know a settlement there was destroyed. We'd have to test random uninhabited (or at least currently uninhabited) areas for which there are no indications of anything special to get a better picture

And not even that guarantees a complete picture - what if a tsunami event erases or conceals the record of something like this? Volcanic activity? Desertification?

My point is that we can't reason about the rarity or uniqueness of these events as a main factor for accepting or refuting the hypothesis

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by pvg on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:09AM (#28603539)
We don't really have evidence of settlements lasting tens of millennia. Plus, there weren't that many people about. The estimates of human population just 10k BCE are about that of LA County - 10 million-ish.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by kuschku on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:37AM (#28603673)
Not individual settlements, but roughly the same areas stay populated over the whole timeframe. And while there were less humans around, they were still distributed over the whole world.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by pvg on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:59AM (#28603771)
A simple counter-example to both 'same areas stay populated' and 'humans were all over the world' is human migration to the Americas which started, let's say 20kya, at the very low end of your 'tens of millennia' scale.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by rini17 on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:28AM (#28603634)
Even if that were true, what is your point? Where did these 10m people live if not in settlements?
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by pvg on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:38AM (#28603681)
They didn't live in permanent settlements, no, never mind ones that lasted tens of thousands of years. That is my point.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by rini17 on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:44AM (#28603709)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_continuously_in... lists several cities already established (with walls) around 3000 BC. Why they would not be inhabitated millenia before? Just because we don't have written records?
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by pvg on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:49AM (#28603729)
Mostly because they hadn't invented agriculture, a less-than-10k-years-old development.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by kuschku on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @07:19AM (#28603896)
The city of Abu Herey was destroyed 10'800 BC, almost three millenia before the timeframe you just stated for the first cities.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by pvg on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @07:40AM (#28604030)
Do you mean this site?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_Abu_Hureyra

It's a unique site of possible early long-term hunter-gatherer settlement right in the middle of one of the regions in which agriculture was first developed. It also happens to be one of the first agricultural sites! The pre-agricultural populations we're talking about are a few hundred people, which feels a little short of a city.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by nl on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @09:05AM (#28604651)
Abu Hureyra 1 was hardly a city - more a collection of huts.

And it's one of the earliest examples of the transition from nomadic hunter gathers to more permanent settlements.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by bsanr2 on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:51AM (#28604556)
Agriculture isn't the only way to sustain moderately-sized populations, it's just the most efficient in the short term. Semi-passive cultivation is arguably more sustainable because you don't encounter the issues of deforestation, soil depletion, and centralization of resources.

Nomadism doesn't preclude semi-permanent settlements, especially as migratory patterns retrace sites.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by danans on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @10:42AM (#28605493)
> Agriculture isn't the only way to sustain moderately-sized populations, it's just the most efficient in the short term. Semi-passive cultivation is arguably more sustainable

There is a theory by Jared Diamond [1] of how pre-Agricultural Jomon people of Japan were able to invent pottery 18K years ago: the wild-food rich environment of Japan, being moist, temperate, and surrounded by ocean - allowed them to have very settled lives while other hunter gatherers had to constantly move.

Outside of rate examples like this, there is little evidence that non agricultural societies reached even moderate populations.

1. https://erenow.net/common/gunsgermssteel/23.php

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by nl on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @09:08AM (#28604671)
Semi permanent sites did exist in this timeframe. But they were much smaller in terms of population and rarely (if ever) walled cities like those which existed around 4000 BCE.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by pvg on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @09:24AM (#28604784)
Completely agree with you that agriculture is not required to form non-permanent settlements that didn't last tens of thousands of years.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by bsanr2 on Monday September 27, 2021 @09:18AM (#28670287)
A non-permanent settlement conceivably could see continuous (non-permanent) habitation for thousands of years. If, as a semi-nomadic group, you return to the same location year after year, generation after generation, and you do so alongside a large number of nearby settlements, with whom you maintain social relationships... Well, it might not have a post office or gate, but it's a dynamic fulfills many of the requirements of a "city".
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by kuschku on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @10:32AM (#28605376)
No one said it had to be a single, year-round, uninterrupted settlement. A seasonal, interrupted, settlement would be no different to an asteroid.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by ascar on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:55AM (#28604579)
I would recommend reading Yuval Noah Harari's "Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind". It's really enlightening about the early days of human kind and even gives a new perspective for recent/current developments.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by BurningFrog on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:44AM (#28604496)
I think most people were nomadic hunter gatherers until agriculture was invented, binding them to their fields.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by raducu on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @05:41AM (#28603412)
Does that mean there were two airbursts and not just one in the same place 9000 years apart?

Not disputing that, but my interpretation would be that there was just one airburst that covered both cities.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by kuschku on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @05:50AM (#28603444)
Jericho and Tall el-Hammam were destroyed in the same airburst, in the same place (~22km distance, ~same time).

Abu Hereya (several hundred kilometers away, 9000 years earlier) was also discussed in the article, and is a separate impact.

Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by yosito on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @06:39AM (#28603682)
Jericho? Isn't that the city with the biblical story of God knocking down the walls from the inside out? I wonder if there's a connection.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by yxhuvud on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @07:02AM (#28603787)
The more obvious connection is with Sodom & Gomorra being destroyed by divine wrath. Evidence of high temperatures and increased salinity..
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by 13of40 on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:30AM (#28604367)
Having driven through Sodom, which is situated on the dead end of the dead sea, next to the apocalyptic salt factory they have there, it boggles my mind that you would be able to measure "increased salinity". What I'm saying is the dirt itself is half salt.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by dhosek on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @09:21AM (#28604769)
"Apocalyptic salt factory" in Sodom creates an image in my mind of a factory whose salt comes from the pillars of salt left behind by all the people leaving Sodom but stopping to look back.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by BurningFrog on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:47AM (#28604523)
That's what you'd expect after an "increased salinity" event.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by dr_zoidberg on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @08:29AM (#28604353)
The linked study mentions the possibility of Tall el-Hammam being Sodom, but they specifically say thats a whole line of study in itself and they won't go into details in the paper.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by yxhuvud on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @09:17AM (#28604747)
Yes, they did avoid derailing the study very nicely.
Re:A Tunguska size burst destroyed Tall el-Hammam, Bronze Ag... by Arech on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @11:59AM (#28617919)
It worth actually to follow links to Abu Hureyra paper [1] to learn that this event is considered not as a solitary impact, but just one in a series of events across four continents. Abu Hureyra's paper also reference paper [2] with a telling name "Evidence for deposition of 10 million tonnes of impact spherules across four continents 12,800 y ago". Here's a fragment of conclusion from that paper:

"The geographical extent of the (Younger Drias) YD impact is limited by the range of sites available for study to date and is presumably much larger, because we have found consistent, supporting evidence over an increasingly wide area. The nature of the impactor remains unclear, although we suggest that the most likely hypothesis is that of multiple airbursts/impacts by a large comet or asteroid that fragmented in solar orbit, as is common for nearly all comets. The YD impact at 12.8 ka is coincidental with major environmental events, including abrupt cooling at the YD onset, major extinction of some end-Pleistocene megafauna, disappearance of Clovis cultural traditions, widespread biomass burning, and often, the deposition of dark, carbon-rich sediments (black mat). It is reasonable to hypothesize a relationship between these events and the YDB impact, although much work remains to understand the causal mechanisms."

[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-60867-w

[2] https://www.pnas.org/content/110/23/E2088