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Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by wpietri on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @05:38PM (#28531715)
> Serology is a thing, as are records of positive test results.

Serology is a thing, sure. But two points:

Getting a serum test rather than getting the vaccine is not going to be cheaper, easier, or better studied. We are not constrained on vaccine supply. So the practical advantage of allowing a totally different pathway is not obvious.

Creating another pathway adds a lot of cognitive load and confusion. The bar bouncer checking vaccination status at the door is not likely to know anything about serology. The same goes for people eager not to get Covid and the people eager not to accidentally kill grandma. Every bit of complexity is met with complaints and confusion; every change in regulation makes it harder for people to know what to do and therefore less likely to do it.

In some future pandemic might we want to create a two-pathway system? E.g., such that there's a government-issued "safe to mingle" digital passport? Sure. That seems like a great thing to start preparing now so it's ready the next time a disease hops the species barrier. For now, though, I think we should stick with the current plan: vaccination for (almost) everybody.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by mattparcens on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @05:48PM (#28531851)
Cognitive load does not justify imposing potentially involuntary medical treatments on people, particularly not onto people for whom the benefit is likely of very little marginal value.

The cognitive load could be built into the "vaccine card" anyway - I have a driver's license with a couple of extra checkboxes showing that I need corrective lenses and am authorized to drive a motorcycle, but most people need only be concerned that the card itself exists.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by PragmaticPulp on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @05:56PM (#28531964)
> Cognitive load does not justify imposing potentially involuntary medical treatments on people,

FYI: The current legislation requires weekly testing or proof of vaccination, but it doesn't actually impose the vaccine on anyone who doesn't want it.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by flybrand on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:05PM (#28532091)
Which employers are taking as a green flag to terminate those who don’t get it. Maybe legally wrong, maybe they get compensated in a few years.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by giantg2 on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:23PM (#28532300)
Yep my employer has said they will terminate the unvaccinated (limited medical and religious exceptions excluded).
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by BEEdwards on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:40PM (#28532487)
Which is a move the mostly vaccinated are fine with, because we're really done with the idiocy.

Fuck off and die somewhere else, seems to be the general sentiment of people I know.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by decremental on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:50PM (#28532573)
That doesn't sound insane at all. Where can I sign up for Team Psychopath? I need to hurry as I'm told patience is wearing thin.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by Tcepsa on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @07:09PM (#28532751)
It is my understanding that the latest executive orders do require vaccination of US federal employees and contractors; other employers may offer weekly testing as an alternative. So I believe that, if you are a federal employee or contractor, you do in fact have to choose between getting vaccinated or keeping your job. (Or do you consider allowing people to choose to quit rather than get vaccinated sufficient flexibility to not be an "imposition"?)
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by Spooky23 on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:12PM (#28532177)
> Cognitive load does not justify imposing potentially involuntary medical treatments on people, particularly not onto people for whom the benefit is likely of very little marginal value.

No, this is just not correct. Compulsory vaccination has been a thing for hundreds of years.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by simonh on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:19PM (#28532260)
Nobody has a full system of vaccination status cards and databases. There are just too many people who will avoid vaccination at the slightest excuse. We're in a war and every day of delay costs thousands, or tens of thousands of lives.

We need simple rules that we can apply on a massive scale quickly. The US is a country where more than half of people can't work out if a 1/3 pound burger is bigger or smaller than a 1/4 pound burger.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by mattparcens on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:26PM (#28532339)
No one said anything about multiple cards, nor about any databases whatsoever.

Single-mindedness is not a rationale for imposing medical treatment on people.

I'll circle back to my driver's license analogy - the bouncer does not need to know that I was docked 3 points from my driving test for failing to signal - he only needs to know that some granting authority, with expertise in the realm being licensed, granted me the license. (or that I'm old enough to enter the bar, etc.)

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by bbulkow on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:44PM (#28532540)
'Mandatory medical treatment' sounds like a big deal, but the tragedy of the commons happens with every vaccine. No one benefits much from their own vaccination, we all benefit must from others'. Which is why vaccinations almost always have a requirement, or they don't work (cf flu, cf hpv).

When 1500 Americans are dying every day of a preventable disease, it is absolutely reasonable to take feasibility of enforcement into account. And enforcement has to be done where the greatest risk of spreading occurs. People might not like getting carded at a restaurant, but there is a point where lots of people are dying and it makes sense, right? We card for alcohol, we card for driving, and those we do every day.

I would think someone who tested positive should be able to get a ca state qr code. It seems the science supports that. Having each validator check that the test is the right test, and the doctor and hospital exist, seems not feasible, but getting a state qr code - then using that at the point of enforcement - seems practical.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by mattparcens on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @07:14PM (#28532798)
I largely agree with most everything that you said, regarding enforcement pragmatism and the like.

But I must remind that, at least in this particular conversation, we're talking about people who've just had the illness in question. We don't know how many of the 1,500/day are people who have previously contracted the illness or else contracted the illness from someone else who previously caught the illness, but in all likelihood the proportion of such cases is likely very low. So referencing the 1,500/day likely has very little relevance to a discussion of natural immunity.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by wpietri on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @05:59PM (#28532005)
Cognitive load is the mediating resource. It doesn't on its own justify it, yes. The justification comes from saving lives in a global pandemic. As you can see here and elsewhere, people complain endlessly about shifting recommendations; they reduce trust. That's a very strong incentive to pick an approach and stick with it until the benefit of changing things again becomes very large.

And yes, I agree that next time we do this, we should build it into the card. And better, that card should be digital, so that it can adapt as science discovers more as the pandemic goes on. But what we had was a vaccine, slips of paper, and a lot of questions.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by throwaway894345 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @10:25AM (#28539429)
In my experience talking with people, trust is reduced a lot more when politicians and the media fixate on a vaccine and largely ignore natural immunity. A lot of people are perceiving this as authoritarian and punitive (governments want to compel citizens to receive an unnecessary injection) which burns a lot more trust than "good news! we've learned that natural immunity is sufficient to earn privileges that were previously reserved for the vaccinated!".

> Cognitive load is the mediating resource. It doesn't on its own justify it, yes. The justification comes from saving lives in a global pandemic

I specifically don't see how your hypothesis works: "if we allow for natural immunity, it will confuse people and some of them will die". Presumably the failure mode is that some of the "bouncers" of society are too dumb to understand "vaccine OR natural immunity" and will thus reject more people than necessary (either the vaccinated or the naturally immune) and thus our risk of spread will be slightly reduced at the expense of our liberties. In any case, I have a hard time imagining large failure rates here, and the risk associated with any given error is very small (a given failure doesn't significantly increase anyone's risk of serious illness or death).

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by temp8964 on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:01PM (#28532034)
You are making all those strange excuses to force people to get vaccinated. Some people don’t want to for whatever reasons, if they want to get positive test results, that’s their choice. Stop using twisted logic and marginal cases to make up arguments to satisfy your authoritarian desire.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by thebean11 on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @05:58PM (#28531990)
> Getting a serum test rather than getting the vaccine is not going to be cheaper, easier, or better studied.

The difference is that the serum test is risk free. If I knew I was already immune, I would not have gotten the vaccine to be completely honest, no matter how small the risk is. For the same reason I don't get other safe and effective treatments for diseases I do not have.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by wpietri on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:01PM (#28532026)
The effects of the test, sure, because that's just a blood draw. The downstream impact to disease and transmission risk, definitely not.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by throwaway894345 on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:21PM (#28532280)
Isn't the science showing that we do know the downstream impact to disease and transmission risk is preferable in the case of natural immunity?
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by thebean11 on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:17PM (#28532233)
Not sure what you mean, if the test determines I have immunity similar to what a vaccine provides and knowing that I choose not to get it, what are the downstream impacts?
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by throwaway894345 on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:22PM (#28532288)
I think the parent is saying "we don't know that natural immunity affords the same protection as vaccination", but I believe he's mistaken.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by thebean11 on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:26PM (#28532338)
I see, I guess I don't know either way, seems like something that isn't particularly difficult to study though so I'd be surprised if it wasn't known at this point.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by throwaway894345 on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:28PM (#28532356)
I'm sure it's quite difficult to study, but no less so than studying the vaccine. I'd be surprised if we didn't already know at least as much about natural immunity, but whether the media are effectively communicating that information is another question.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by djrogers on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:13PM (#28532187)
> The downstream impact to disease and transmission risk, definitely not.

In what way?

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by wpietri on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @03:49PM (#28543541)
It will definitely not be better studied because it the focus and the funding is on how well vaccination works. Vaccines have a revenue model; natural immunity doesn't.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by throwaway894345 on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:18PM (#28532248)
If the bar bouncer can see a card that says you have been vaccinated then they can see a card that says you have covid antibodies or that you have had a positive covid test at some point in the past. I don't think this is too burdensome for our hypothetical bouncer.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by freeopinion on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:02PM (#28532048)
The people who would be confused by two pathways are already confused. It would not increase confusion. You have a vaccination card or you have a positive test card.

Right now there are already at least two pathways. You have a vaccination card or a negative test card within an allowable date range.

The bigger issues are privacy, etc. Not, "Oh no, there are two options! I'm so confused."