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Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by PragmaticPulp on Thursday September 09, 2021 @09:36AM (#28469505)
Moving money from point A to point B quickly is the ideal use case for cryptocurrency.

It’s interesting to see that even their example use case results in the transferred Bitcoin being converted back to dollars right away:

> “Wherever you are now, you can send bitcoin to anyone with a Chivo wallet in El Salvador, and in minutes, they have the value and then they can go to one of the ATMs and take it out in cash without a fee,” said Alex Gladstein, chief strategy officer for the Human Rights Foundation.

I suspect this will be the default behavior for Bitcoin remittances: Buy Bitcoin, send it immediately, then other side sells it as quickly as possible to get back to cash. Bitcoin dropped 20% in the span of minutes on the big launch day in El Salvador. I doubt many people are going to want to hodl their remittances in a highly volatile currency.

It’s also interesting that the costs haven’t actually gone to zero for the Bitcoin model, but they have been obscured and shifted to other parties. This says the receiver can withdraw BTC as cash “without a fee” but what does that mean? Is it like those currency exchange stations at the airport that have “zero fee” but they more than make up for it with unfavorable exchange rates? If not, who is paying to operate and maintain the foreign exchange infrastructure, which isn’t free?

Also, they make use of L2 networks for transfers, but at the end of the day those are still rolled up on to the Bitcoin blockchain, which is unbelievably expensive to run due to the energy requirements that register as a significant fraction of humanities energy usage. That energy must be paid for somehow, which is currently a a mix of block rewards (technically, inflationary money printing) and transaction fees, which are at least amortized across L2 transactions. There may be uses for cryptocurrency yet, but I hope this isn’t the end game because it’s still an inefficient mess. Maybe if we can get away from PoW block chains and also wise up and jettison the arbitrary speculative tokens then maybe we can make some progress.

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by lumost on Thursday September 09, 2021 @09:43AM (#28469585)
BTC volatility will presumably fall as the market cap grows. One would expect Institutional traders who make money on volatility will continue to move in as it becomes easier to bank on some long-term average price of BTC relative to other currencies.

Something I suspect we often forget about in the world of stable reserve currencies is that the majority of the world can't run floating exchange rates without encountering major volatility. Standard Fiat/Gold backed currencies generally require some large institution to control the currency price either via money supply, foreign currency supply, gold, or government decreed exchange rates. When these institutions fail currencies tend to have rather extreme swings.

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by PragmaticPulp on Thursday September 09, 2021 @10:06AM (#28469828)
> BTC volatility will presumably fall as the market cap grows. One would expect Institutional traders who make money on volatility will continue to move in…

I don’t buy it. Those institutional traders have plenty of access in 2021 and it’s still as volatile as ever. The extreme volatility is what makes them their money and also convinces the casual investor to put money into Bitcoin because they think it might 100X again.

If the volatility stops, so does the crypto party. Big traders don’t want it to stop.

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by bko on Thursday September 09, 2021 @11:37AM (#28470866)
A lot of it has to do with the amount of leverage you're allowed to take on these exchanges. If you have 20:1 leverage, your collateral will automatically be liquidated (or purchased) if the price moves 5% out of your favor. This causes death spirals as more crypto gets dumped (or bought in case of short selling) magnifying the movement.

Crypto needs a strong financial network of derivative products. There need to be instruments to hedge the price risk for short periods. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to cap movements for a fixed time period, limiting the amount you can lose. So if I want to use it as transfer of fiat, I should be able to do so within a reasonable timeframe.

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by qeternity on Thursday September 09, 2021 @10:29AM (#28470073)
Institutional trader here. Yes, this.

Crypto is popular with traders because it's volatile and fragmented.

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by stiltzkin on Thursday September 09, 2021 @11:12AM (#28470561)
On crypto you need an asterisk as this is not a problem with stable coins as USDC or Dai.
Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by qeternity on Thursday September 09, 2021 @11:24AM (#28470712)
Categorically, crypto is volatile. Just because some things aren't doesn't change that.
Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by Milolol on Thursday September 09, 2021 @12:24PM (#28471436)
Overcollateralized stablecoins (like DAI) are not volatile and they are in the category of cryptocurrency. So they do change that. The change is slight, but ever-growing.

BTC's price itself has grown much less volatile.

> the volatility spikes in Bitcoin were most extreme in 2011, with subsequent spikes in volatility lessening over time

https://bitcoinist.com/looking-at-bitcoin-volatility-over-th...

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by stiltzkin on Thursday September 09, 2021 @04:36PM (#28474356)
If stable coins are not volatile that does not mean all crypto is volatile.
Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by jayd16 on Thursday September 09, 2021 @12:11PM (#28471268)
Agreed. Volatility being profitable just incentives volatility. We usually combat this with regulation but that doesn't seem feasible here.

And as you say, that's the appeal anyway.

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by rchaud on Thursday September 09, 2021 @03:42PM (#28473788)
> BTC volatility will presumably fall as the market cap grows.

"Presumably" is the key word.

There is nobody to verify that the billions in Tether, BUSD and USDC used to buy BTC (and influence the price) are backed by real dollars.

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by csomar on Thursday September 09, 2021 @07:04PM (#28475745)
> BTC volatility will presumably fall as the market cap grows.

They are not related. Gold, oil and gas are also very volatile and have massive market caps.

This doesn't matter, however. There will be traders who make market that will buy the volatility during the transaction for a fixed fee.

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by bwf93 on Thursday September 09, 2021 @12:23PM (#28471419)
I just looked at how much it would cost to claim a reward from a smart contract I have money invested in. I would claim $16 and transferring it to my wallet would cost $169. I don't see how this is affordable.
Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by nybble41 on Thursday September 09, 2021 @07:34PM (#28475994)
I'm assuming your smart contract is not in Bitcoin, since current BTC transaction fees are under $0.70 per standard transaction for 90% chance of confirmation in 30 minutes or less.[0] A smart contract in BTC might involve larger transactions, or multiple transactions, but probably not the equivalent of 240 standard transactions.

The article is about El Salvador's switch to Bitcoin, so the price of smart contracts in Etherium, or some other system, is beside the point.

[0] According to <https://bitcoiner.live/?confidence=0.9> at 6:31 PM CDT.

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by koonsolo on Thursday September 09, 2021 @12:39PM (#28471624)
PoS FTW
Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by BLKNSLVR on Thursday September 09, 2021 @10:28AM (#28470053)
You, umm, answer your own accusation in the same paragraph:

> Also, they make use of L2 networks for transfers, but at the end of the day those are still rolled up on to the Bitcoin blockchain

> which are at least amortized across L2 transactions

That's the point of Layer 2 solutions.

Don't worry, there's a lot of progress being made if you keep up with the industry news.

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by mbesto on Thursday September 09, 2021 @11:29AM (#28470766)
> Don't worry, there's a lot of progress being made if you keep up with the industry news.

Sorry to nitpick your comment specifically, but I always hear this in the crypto community "we're making progress!". But no one ever cares to provide specifics. Why is that?

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by BLKNSLVR on Thursday September 09, 2021 @11:55AM (#28471066)
Honestly, it's fucking complex, which doesn't help it's adoption or popularity. I've been throwing away my previous life for nearly a year in reading, watching, and listening to all manner of news, deep dive explanations, technical analysis, price predictions, "fundamentals" definitions, pundit commentary, etc, as well as participating, in non-financially-ruinous-risking ways, in trading, swapping, DeFi, yield farming, lending, (not borrowing).

It's difficult to define what I've learnt, and maybe that's indicative in the opposite way than I'd like.

You have to dip your toe in to check the temperature.

I've known of Bitcoin since it was $1, and was very skeptical of it until I dipped my toe in. Both my feet are wet now though, right up to my knees.

I believe cryptocurrency has a bright future. Bitcoin is the first, Ethereum added something amazing to bitcoin to become a platform for other ecosystems, and now there are smaller competitors that are going to be "the new Ethereum" by being faster and cheaper and more decentralised so the ecosystems can spread wider to cater to more people.

There are a couple of cryptocurrencies that are hoping to be able to soon compete with the transaction speeds and volumes of Visa but with lower fees.

But, admittedly, that kind of performance level is vaporware after 5 years, but work continues and "revelations" always seem to be round the corner:

Cardano smart contracts go live this weekend (I think, unless it's the last testnet release).

Ethereum 2.0 is scheduled for release in December (this will probably make people 'in the know' smirk - so let's say Q1 2022).

Solana is gaining popularity and has the potential for the Visa stats right now, but it's just waiting for the volume to prove it.

Polkadot has its parachain auctions coming up later this month (or next...).

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by mbesto on Thursday September 09, 2021 @12:26PM (#28471458)
> go live this weekend (I think

> coming up later this month (or next...).

> scheduled for release in December (this will probably make people 'in the know' smirk - so let's say Q1 2022).

> couple of cryptocurrencies that are hoping to be able to soon compete

Do you see why people roll their eyes when they hear "we're making progress" now?

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by BLKNSLVR on Thursday September 09, 2021 @12:35PM (#28471570)
Fuck yes, and I find it amusing.

However:

Ethereum's controversial "London" hard fork went live a couple of weeks ago.

Kusama's parachain auctions have been live and ongoing for a while now.

Bitcoin's Lightning network is powering El Salvador's transactions.

PayPal allows cryptocurrency purchases.

Square is doing whatever it did with crypto.

Amazon and Walmart are hiring digital cash experts.

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by PragmaticPulp on Thursday September 09, 2021 @10:51AM (#28470339)
As long as the L2 transactions still require the operation of the main BTC blockchain, someone is paying the costs of maintaining the L1 block chain.

It’s misdirection, but the costs of maintaining the Bitcoin blockchain haven’t gone anywhere.

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by sunshinerag on Thursday September 09, 2021 @11:20AM (#28470654)
No one said the cost is zero. But L2 solution multiplies the number of transactions done by a significant done. So the cost per transaction is staggeringly low.
Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by dom96 on Thursday September 09, 2021 @09:39AM (#28469539)
At that point why don't they just send Tether or USDT (or another stable coin), why even risk playing with such volatility, can't these stable coins be transferred with few fees as well?
Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by robot_no_419 on Thursday September 09, 2021 @09:46AM (#28469620)
Because Tether and USDT are censorable by their parent companies (ie, these tokens can be blacklisted by the Ethereum Virtual Machine), and they are also tied to the monetary policy of the United States.

It definitely makes sense for them to use Tether/USDT for sure, I agree there. But making Bitcoin a legal currency is also a political and economic statement that goes far beyond simply facilitating digital payments.

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by qeternity on Thursday September 09, 2021 @10:32AM (#28470100)
They ARE using USDT. Strike, the platform being used, automatically converts everything to Tethers.

There's hardly anything truly "bitcoin" about El Salvador's system.

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by mateuszf on Thursday September 09, 2021 @02:19PM (#28472864)
Not sure what's the current status on this but they were planning on moving from Tether to cooperation with El Salvador banks.

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/06/21/strike-is-phasi...

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by dustintrex on Thursday September 09, 2021 @11:15AM (#28470600)
El Salvador doesn't have its own currency, it already uses the USD as legal tender, plus their crypto system is backed by USDT.

This has been suggested as one of the many reasons Bukele is so keen on Bitcoin/Chivo: he can't print USD, but having control of the national wallet system gives him countless avenues to manipulate the system.

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by kevinak on Thursday September 09, 2021 @11:24AM (#28470714)
I don't think that's accurate. Where have you read that they are using USDT?
Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by Sevii on Thursday September 09, 2021 @11:40AM (#28470909)
Moving things to bitcoin with government registered wallets makes tracking a lot easier. Should make basic things like taxes and tariffs easier to enforce. Could possibly do a lot to shrink the under the table grey market in El Salvador.

Of course it could also allow the government to do worse things like backdoor wallets and confiscate crypto.

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by dragonwriter on Thursday September 09, 2021 @11:47AM (#28470975)
> Moving things to bitcoin with government registered wallets makes tracking a lot easier. Should make basic things like taxes and tariffs easier to enforce.

There are lots if wallets not registered with the El Salvador government, and it will be impossible for the government to distinguish those that are genuinely foreign from unregistered wallets used by people ot for purposes nominally subject to El Salvador’s laws.

So, no, it won't make tracking any easier, nor wil it make taxes and tariffs easier to enforce generally.

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by dllthomas on Thursday September 09, 2021 @03:22PM (#28473585)
My understanding (and admittedly I haven't read closely) is that this is a move to supporting transaction in BTC using an existing Salvadoran electronic payment system. In that case, it probably does reliably give increased visibility compared to cash payment.
Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by pkulak on Thursday September 09, 2021 @11:54AM (#28471055)
Stable coins scare the hell out of me. Yes, they are stable, but for that convenience you get a non-zero chance that they will instantly go to zero.
Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by jdcaron on Thursday September 09, 2021 @11:14AM (#28470591)
It's already possible to move money between accounts without cryptocurrencies: banks, payments systems (example Paypal), fund transfer services (example Interac). The transactions are reversible in case of a fraud or issues. What you mean is cryptocurrencies offer a way to circumvent the legal ways of moving money around.
Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by bko on Thursday September 09, 2021 @11:30AM (#28470768)
Using paypal to send internationally for $50-100 has a $3 fee + 3% + fee associated with exchange rates (PayPal’s exchange rate for personal payments includes a 2.5% to 4.5% margin subtracted from the interbank rate and depending on the receiving currency.) Also there is a few day lag between when you can retrieve the money

So it's pretty expensive.

On top of that, the person has to have a bank account that can be connected with PayPal. The benefit of WesternUnion (and why its a lot more expensive) is that you can just show up somewhere, show them an ID and get cash that was transferred to you. Crypto is closer to that, where you can download an app, go to an ATM and exchange for fiat in a short timeframe

https://transumo.com/paypal-international-fees/#USA

Re:El Salvador’s new Bitcoin wallets could cost Western Unio... by pkd on Thursday September 09, 2021 @01:29PM (#28472262)
Transferwise (and others like it) have no such issues. When I make a cross border transfer, the funds are immediately available (if I elect to debit my account immediately). This varies by jurisdiction but it proves that cryptocurrencies are not required to have instantaneous transfers.