News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by filleokus on Thursday August 26, 2021 @10:17AM (#28315282)
The housing situation in Stockholm (and many other parts of the country) is pretty bleak.

Buying an apartment is expensive, and problematic even for well payed young people. In central Stockholm prices are around 1000 USD / sq feet (≈10000 EUR / sq meter), and you need a 15% down payment. For a 400 square feet single room apartment that's a down payment of a full years post-tax salary. If you manage to save 20% of it, then it'll take you five years.

Until you can afford it, the best option is market-priced second hand contracts. Which work well enough, but are quite expensive and very insecure. The landlords often bought the apartments with the intention to live in them, so most contracts are semi-temporary.

First hand rent-controlled contracts are extremely hard to get and basically not an option. The queues are decades long. There's often a 2-300% difference between second-hand (market) rates and first hand contracts, so once someone gets such a contract, they'll never move out.

Of course the lower cost of rent-controlled apartments helps the inner-city be more diverse, allowing people with lower income living there. But there's also a large share of well-of people that have gotten their contracts via connections, or who have just been in the queue for a really long time.

I really hope that the rent-controls are abolished in my lifetime, but there's a vocal large public option for them, so I'm not too sure...

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by rkangel on Thursday August 26, 2021 @10:39AM (#28315540)
I don't understand why the solution here isn't "ban subletting".

The problem (based in my massive experience of reading one article) seems to be that there are a lot of rent-controlled apartments, but they end users aren't getting the benefit of that low rent controlled price. Instead some private citizens are getting to collect free profit for subletting.

If you make subletting a rent-controlled property illegal, then the people who are living in them are unaffected, and the people who aren't living in them will have to give up their rent-control contract freeing up the property for others.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by filleokus on Thursday August 26, 2021 @10:46AM (#28315622)
We basically have two main way of living in apartments. Rent-controlled first-hand contracts, and bought apartments.

Rent-controlled apartments can be sublet legally with almost no markup. Bought apartments can be sublet legally to a market rate [0].

I'm guessing that the guy in the article is in a sublet owned apartment.

Regardless, sub-letting of rent-controlled apartments is very strictly controlled and is essentially "banned". But of course it's quite tricky/expensive to enforce.

(My, in Sweden very unpopular, opinion is that subletting is the last thing that gives young people some kind of chance to mobility. Especially those whose's parents can't buy them an apartment. If all forms of subletting were banned, I would have had no chance to live in Stockholm).

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by oolang on Thursday August 26, 2021 @01:11PM (#28317644)
I don't think that is an unpopular opinion. On the contrary it's been the going one for quite a while. Deregulating letting was said to be part the solution when it was introduced. Now it is said to be part of the problem to have even more deregulation. A more unpopular opinion is that we actually shouldn't try to improve the situation.

The reality is that Stockholm geographically challenged. The major pieces of available land is the city airport and areas of parkland. The city airport has been given a lease until 2040. The areas of parkland is a national park.

The housing market is one the most important markets in Sweden. Anything that significantly lowers the value of real estate will be political suicide. Meaning that in the current market there can't be any solution that actually delivers affordable housing.

There is also little will from the voters to accept measure that would stabilize the market long terms like removing the mortgage interest deduction, introduce an actual real estate tax or regulating lending similar to other countries.

All this means that it's very unlikely that there will ever be even a relatively affordable market in Stockholm. Which will end up being disastrous when the cost of rent is also among the biggest single cost in the knowledge economy. For companies you can argue that the increase in housing cost will be offset by the larger available workforce but you can't say the same for public services.

Past or future deregulation isn't going to solve this. On the contrary it is what prevents a correction. The natural thing to do when something becomes too expensive is look for alternatives. In the housing market this means moving somewhere else. But as companies can attract those good or privileged enough to Stockholm anyways they don't have to move. So the average person doesn't have much of a choice but to move there themselves. Which in turn makes Stockholm even more attractive.

The paradox is that most any improvement of the Stockholm housing market will there make the situation worse long term. So the solution has to be not to cater for this market but to improve the market somewhere else instead. Unfortunately this also unlikely.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by filleokus on Thursday August 26, 2021 @01:37PM (#28317960)
I agree with many of your points. Especially that the mortgage market is really messed up. But as you say, it's almost impossible to make changes that negatively influence the (upper) middle class.

A pet "dictator for one day" idea of mine is to simply move the capital to something like Linköping! Has an airport, enormous amounts of farm land that can just be built on etc, less than 2 hours away from Stockholm by train.

Make Stockholm like NYC and Linköping as DC. If all government headquarters (and related functions) were forced to move, it would certainly take hundreds of thousands of people with them (including family members etc).

Brasília but on Östgötaslätten :-).

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by oolang on Thursday August 26, 2021 @02:03PM (#28318327)
Many government functions have actually already or are in the process of moving.

https://www.fastighetsvarlden.se/notiser/flera-myndigheter-t...

You wouldn't have to move the government though just companies. This is a major part of creating the problem from the beginning. Because as you probably know many of the industrial companies where distributed to other locations like Linköping, Trollhättan, Karlskrona and so forth. As those companies and the industry general has shifted to no longer need things like manufacturing facilities everyone ends up in Stockholm. It's a paradox that when you can work from anywhere it also means everyone can work from the same place.

Of course if a larger company would move outside of Stockholm that places would soon face the same problem even quicker as it's smaller. But if it happened to many different places there might be a shoot. Unfortunately you would have the same issue that many people would have to undermine their immediate interest for it to happen. But at least it would be technically possible. Stockholm has probably gone so far that it is socially and technically impossible as the economic consequences of an effective solution might be unpredictable.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by amelius on Thursday August 26, 2021 @06:17PM (#28321695)
> Anything that significantly lowers the value of real estate will be political suicide.

What percentage of the population owns the house they live in (or has a mortgage)?

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by oolang on Thursday August 26, 2021 @07:51PM (#28322548)

   39,8 % Single-family home
   20,7 % Co-op apartment
   = 60,5%

   28,4 % Rental apartment
Maybe more relevant is that because of this Sweden has very high household debt.

https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by TheSpiceIsLife on Thursday August 26, 2021 @06:42PM (#28321974)
That’s not how our modern democracies tend to work.

Rather, voters choose between one option, thinly veiled as two chooses, set by monied interests and corralled by media barons.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by blitzar on Thursday August 26, 2021 @10:44AM (#28315598)
I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that owner of rent controlled property 'lets' it to a connected party who then sublets it on for market rate. Bypassing the whole rent control.

If they are going to have a rent control law, then allowing the person to sublet that on for a profit then you basically dont have rent control at all (except for the lucky / honest minority).

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by dimitrios1 on Thursday August 26, 2021 @10:47AM (#28315632)
Keep going...

You are almost there to why regulations, however well intentioned, rarely work to their expectations versus the alternatives :)

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by blitzar on Thursday August 26, 2021 @11:00AM (#28315790)
Regulations do often work, and work well.

What doesnt work is what passes for regulation or legislation these days, written by some moron, that politicians attach to whatever bill or budget that is certain to pass. They barely reach the threshold of 'well intentioned' and would more charitably be described as vitue signaling or just spin.

You get to stand infront of the microphone and parrot off the 'This is a Win for the voters' but rarely has anyone read, understood or debated what is now a binding law or regulation, along with its unintended and at times intended consequences.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by dimitrios1 on Thursday September 02, 2021 @10:11AM (#28392220)
Regulations can often work well initially.

But inevitably, there exists a timeline where the regulation becomes antiquated and outdated. It no longer serves its purpose, and it actually becomes the very barrier to progress. And in my time being alive, I've rarely seen politicians act quickly to improve regulations to serve a current need. More often than not, they grandstand over the value of the regulation, and pass laws that increase the bureaucratic reach of the regulatory arm. They effectively become rubber stamping desks.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by 3np on Thursday August 26, 2021 @10:43PM (#28323772)
It’s already forbidden to sublet rentals at any significant markup (basically accounting for eg furnishing added by the middleman).

If anything there’s lack of enforcement of existing regulation.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by hedwall on Thursday August 26, 2021 @12:22PM (#28316982)
It already is illegal to make a profit by sub letting a rent controlled apartment in Sweden.
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by fallingknife on Thursday August 26, 2021 @11:08AM (#28315911)
But how do you enforce? Neither the tenant, who is getting below market rent, nor the landlord (obviously) have any incentive to report.
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by rkangel on Thursday August 26, 2021 @11:31AM (#28316188)
A potential tenant has some incentive. If there was a public record of which properties were rent controlled, as a tenant looking for property and I ran into one I thought was sublet, I could compare it with the list and report it. Basically it would become hard to advertise them because it would be easy to check. TBH, you could make it illegal to advertise property that was being sublet and put the onus on Zoopla/RightMove/whoever to do a quick API check for an address.

You're right that if it was the cheapest way of getting property then tenants probably wouldn't report. But if the whole thing is making property more expensive then I definitely would.

Recently on Reddit there were some screenshots of a ground-floor 'studio' flat that was entered through a window. It didn't have a door and was still quite expensive. That's illegal according to UK rules, and lots of people on Reddit happily reported it.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by kbelder on Thursday August 26, 2021 @04:30PM (#28320250)
I'm sure they did. Thanks, Reddit strangers! One less apartment available to rent, but at least several internet users have more smug satisfaction.
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by rkangel on Thursday August 26, 2021 @06:19PM (#28321715)
The rules exist for a reason. The reason in this case is to prevent people dying in a fire. "But we're really short of flats in London" is not a good excuse for allowing landlords to risk the lives of their tenants to make a buck.
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by kbelder on Thursday August 26, 2021 @06:46PM (#28322020)
Oh, I wouldn't have a problem with a tenant reporting the crimes of a slumlord. I just really hate Reddit crowds of do-gooders who brigade over a picture and a blurb.
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by TheCoelacanth on Friday August 27, 2021 @10:59AM (#28328710)
Make a rule that anyone who signs a sub-lease for a rent-controlled apartment has the option to take over the original tenant's lease and void their sub-lease.

That gives the tenant an automatic incentive to report the person who sublet it to them.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by imtringued on Thursday August 26, 2021 @04:53PM (#28320580)
Why is the problem that people are willing to market rate?
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by int_19h on Thursday August 26, 2021 @06:32PM (#28321887)
Because they didn't get it for market rate.
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by mrkickling on Thursday August 26, 2021 @10:47AM (#28315646)
I think there is an ideological difference. I saw in another of your comments that you only want to live in the city center of Stockholm, and that you could pay a high rent for that. This could lead to a city where all the rich live in the city center and all the poor live far out in the suburbs (probably past the subway line), and travel into the city center to work. This is in my opinion not a good society (even for the rich, considering that segregation is expensive for a welfare society). My ideological conviction is that a less segregated city is better, and that both rich and poor should live in the city center. Having both rentals (at different rent levels) and owned apartments mixed is a good way to make this happen. What is your idea of how housing should look like in Stockholm?
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by filleokus on Thursday August 26, 2021 @11:14AM (#28315999)
I mean, ideally I don't want a Stockholm metro area that's (even more!) segregated compared to today's situation.

If I could dream, my ideal Stockholm area would be one where I (and other's like me) would be interested in living outside of the city center. Where the whole Swedish model of Soviet-style housing blocks along the subways didn't really happen, and instead that the city grew organically outwards. More like Aspudden and less like Solna centrum. Imagine if Vasastaden style of housing extended outwards!

But I also feel that the current system is very inefficient in alleviating the segregation. For starters, the most socially exposed people haven't been in Sweden long enough to even dream about a rent-controlled apartment (anywhere in Stockholm). Then we have all the people who have been standing in queues for decades, while living in a villa in Bromma, and now sells it to move into a large flat in the city center with a rent that is a third of "what it should be".

Finally, my opinion is that nothing good comes out of pretending that attractive locations aren't more expensive. They are! If we want to give low-income people the chance to live in expensive areas, we should do that directly. Perhaps by subsidising their rent or have the government owned property companies save X% of apartments to people who are less well off.

Pretending that market forces don't exist and forcing Swedes in their 20's to borrow hundreds of thousands from their parents, or moving every 12 months is not a good solution either.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by ecmascript on Thursday August 26, 2021 @10:56AM (#28315751)
Norway, Denmark and Finland all have no rent control and at least in two of the three the bad places is close to the city center.

In Stockholm, it's completely the reverse. I think rent control and where poor people live has nothing in common. It's impossible to get an apartment in the Stockholm city centre if you want to rent it.

Especially when the cities lets immigrants cut the queue. Most wealthy people can afford the super expensive apartments and the medium wealthy can buy contracts illegally.

All you're doing with rent control is to give incentiment for people to hold on to their contracts no matter what, cheat the system or buy/sell contracts illegally. It is really widespread and landlords are making a lot of tax free money on it.

Even worse is the situation if you buy apartments, you cannot rent it out to whomever you want or for how long you want since you don't really own it. You only own a smaller piece in the economic foundation that owns all apartments and give you the right to live in it. They can require you to not rent it out or limit the timing to a couple of months increasing the instability of the second hand contracts. Also, if the economic foundation makes bad decisions and gets a bad economy they can be forced to sell the entire apartment complex and you'll loose the apartment to a presumably shitty price.

The only good way of owning your housing in Sweden is to actually own the entire property OR own one of the new types of "äganderätter" which are very few and far between.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by bjourne on Thursday August 26, 2021 @11:09AM (#28315929)
Finland has social housing and also has much larger housing subsidies than Sweden. When Finland abolished its rent control, rents in some places almost doubled. Seniors and others couldn't afford to pay the higher rents so they had to increase housing subsidies to them so that they wouldn't become homeless. That Finnish tax money directly becomes profits to landlords doesn't seem like a great situation to me.
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by ecmascript on Thursday August 26, 2021 @11:14AM (#28316004)
I don't understand what the difference is, at least you can get an apartment in Finland. Prices in Helsinki (even if its a much smaller city) is a lot more reasonable and you have a lot more rights than you'll have in Sweden.

If you think old people can get an apartment in Sweden, that is just laughable. Even in smaller cities the queues are like 10 years. You'll have to pay up

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by toxik on Thursday August 26, 2021 @11:46AM (#28316428)
The difference is that landlords pocket the excess and whoever isn’t subsidized gets fucked over.
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by bjourne on Thursday August 26, 2021 @11:35AM (#28316250)
In Helsinki rents rose by 40% after rent control was abolished and in other parts of the country by 26%. The average rent per m^2 is 11.3 euro in Stockholm and 19.5 euro in Helsinki. Furthermore, Finland spends three times as much on subsidizing poor tenants that can't pay their rent than what Sweden does. There is subsidized housing in Finland called Ara-housing, but the queuing time for those apartments is six to seven years. References here: https://www.etc.se/ekonomi/sa-blev-konsekvenserna-av-marknad...
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by filleokus on Thursday August 26, 2021 @12:58PM (#28317483)
> The average rent per m^2 is 11.3 euro in Stockholm and 19.5 euro in Helsinki.

With the difference being that 19.5 EUR would give me a square meter in Helsinki tomorrow. 11.3 EUR doesn't give me anything in Stockholm for the next decade. ≈ 30 EUR give me a second hand semi-short term contract in Stockholm.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by ecmascript on Thursday August 26, 2021 @04:23PM (#28320168)
ETC is a leftist media organisation so that they would promote rent control is a given. I wouldn't trust what they have to say about the matter. Do you know why no one builds new renting apartments in Sweden? It is because you cannot make a profit on them. You can instead build BRFs and make a lot of money. So everyone is doing that. They maximize the loans of the new BRF so they have to spend as little as possible of their own money.

Six to seven years is nothing compared to Sweden where you can have queues about 20-30 years easily for the big cities. My GF have 12 years in the queue and she can get a decent apartment in the outskirts of Stockholm but that is about it.

There are special housing for elderly, which is a bit shorter in the queues but still very long.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by bjourne on Thursday August 26, 2021 @08:33PM (#28322900)
That's a rubbish objection. Attack the message - not the messenger. I cited the paper so that you can verify that the figures I provided are correct. Furthermore, new rental apartments already are excluded from rent control so rent control can't be the reason so few apartments of any type is being built. 20-30 years is for the most desirable areas of Stockholm (Gamla stan) and is not the median queuing time.
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by litek on Thursday August 26, 2021 @04:32PM (#28320280)
> Norway, Denmark and Finland all have no rent control

Norway does not, not sure about Finland, but Denmark definitely has a form of rent control. There are ceilings on rent that will be determined by appeal to a local rental board. There are exceptions however, anything built from 1992 and onwards, as well as some different rules for units that have undergone major renovations.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by mrkickling on Thursday August 26, 2021 @11:14AM (#28316006)
> I think rent control and where poor people live has nothing in common.

So you really think there is no connection between housing politics and segregation?

> All you're doing with rent control is to give incentiment for people to hold on to their contracts no matter what, cheat the system or buy/sell contracts illegally

Holding on to a contract is not necessarily a bad thing, if you enjoy living in your apartment and it is priced according to its size (giving incitament to switch to a smaller one if you don't need a big one anymore). Of course people try to cheat the system, but it is illegal ... and tenants paying illegally high rents can take the contract owner to court and get all excess rent back.

> Even worse is the situation if you buy apartments, you cannot rent it out to whomever you want or for how long you want since you don't really own it.

This has nothing to do with rent control and depends on which BRF you live in. Considering the lack of interest for äganderätter I'm not sure if so many people are with you on this opinion.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by ecmascript on Thursday August 26, 2021 @04:29PM (#28320244)
> So you really think there is no connection between housing politics and segregation?

That is not what I said.

> Of course people try to cheat the system, but it is illegal ... and tenants paying illegally high rents can take the contract owner to court and get all excess rent back.

Yeah but that never happens. All parties involved have interest in making it stay in the shadows. They don't pay illegally high rents, they pay normal rents but buy the contract to live there in the first place. A LOT of people is doing that, because the queues are impossible.

> This has nothing to do with rent control and depends on which BRF you live in. Considering the lack of interest for äganderätter I'm not sure if so many people are with you on this opinion.

The biggest reason why there is a lack of interest is because of loans. Builders take out massive loans on every new BRF, as much as they can which makes the new BRF sensitive for economic shifts.

Yes but basically all large BRFs have rules that say that you can only rent out your apartment for 6-12 months at a maximum time. They also need to vet the one your renting out to and can say no. If you have a bad relationship with the BRF, they can mess with you easily.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by nilpunning on Thursday August 26, 2021 @12:14PM (#28316876)
I agree that having a mix is good. Many times this occurs without intervention by having a mix of old and new (or renovated) buildings. An old city like Stockholm I imagine could have a large spectrum of buildings in various states of decay and thus prices. But on the other hand cities that are experiencing a rapid inflow of migration can quickly have their aged housing stock bought up and flipped. Many of these issues are exacerbated by restrictive planning and zoning regulations in city suburbs which prevent the higher density city life people desire to be replicated in new places.
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by nivenkos on Thursday August 26, 2021 @10:23AM (#28315341)
Would abolishing them really help though?

I also rent second-hand and it sucks, but I don't think things will improve just by abolishing the controls on first-hand contracts.

We just need to build far, far, far more. Especially with so much immigration.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by filleokus on Thursday August 26, 2021 @10:33AM (#28315462)
In my opinion we need both. Just building more won't help me.

If I'm going to live in Stockholm (or any other large city really), I want to live in the city center. I want to walk or bike to the office, and have all the restaurants near by etc. It's very unlikely that the housing stock in the central parts of town will ever increase substantially.

I'm willing (and honestly lucky enough to be able) to pay the premium for living downtown, if market rates were imposed.

(There's an argument to be made about how abolished rent controls can increase interest by companies to build rental properties and get municipalities to issue building permits. Also that a non-negligible share of attractive rent-controlled housing is under-utilised, e.g people who don't live in them full-time but keep the contract because it's nice to have every once in a while).

But yes, we definitely need a lot more housing overall. Cheap and close/with good connections to places where people work.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by jrochkind1 on Thursday August 26, 2021 @10:41AM (#28315567)
It's of course expensive to live in the city center in most large European (or American) cities, this is not particular to Sweden.

> I'm willing (and honestly lucky enough to be able) to pay the premium for living downtown, if market rates were imposed.

I think this basically points out the trade-off. Right now, difficulty living in the city center of Stockholm or a large city is somewhat more evenly distributed compared to typical European countries, it unusually effects even the rich. Under a more strictly market approach the difficulty would be eliminated for the rich and increased for others.

Whether that's a net win depends who you are, of course.

> It's very unlikely that the housing stock in the central parts of town will ever increase substantially.

So one way or another there are more people who want to live there than there is housing. How is it allocated? It can be allocated by a waiting list, in which you might have to wait 9 years. It can be allocated based on the market, in which those with more ability to pay get to live there. It can be allocated based on some combination of "personal network/nepotism" and "graft", in which leaseholders of rent-controlled apartments rent them out at profit to them, or at no profit to their family and those they know.

Based on the article, the current system of course is a combination of all of those. Adjusting the portion of each of them would benefit some people and disadvantage others, depending on how adjusted.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by filleokus on Thursday August 26, 2021 @11:19AM (#28316058)
There are some dynamic effects that might be dangerous to ignore. Like lobbying efforts for new construction might increase if there's money to made in construction of rental apartments, or more efficient use of square meters (smaller apartments/more used apartments).

But overall, yes, I totally agree. It's an allocation problem of a finite resource, with different tradeoffs.

My favourite idea, if we are going to keep the rent-controls, is to use a lottery.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by jrochkind1 on Thursday August 26, 2021 @12:53PM (#28317428)
What do you like better about a lottery vs the current "waiting list" system? (If we ignore the grey-area-legal sublets and market-rate-rentals that exist now and could exist or not in either system).

They're both kind of "everyone is equal, you don't get a leg up becuase of how much money you have or other status, everyone gets a chance for this limited in-demand resource" approaches, at least on their faces... the same portion of everyone interested actually gets a house either way... I'm confusing myself trying to think through the practical experienced implications of a lottery (which you can keep entering every year) vs multi-year-long waiting list. I mean, I guess obviously the lottery stops privilging those who expressed their desire longest ago/first! I'm not sure if this is good or what. I guess it would give younger people, or people who don't plan out their whole life in advance, a better chance?

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by filleokus on Thursday August 26, 2021 @01:27PM (#28317829)
(We've reached the default threading limit, so unsure if this will be visible...)

1: I don't believe there's a moral value attached to being in the waiting list. Everything else equal (completley ignoring personal situations, current housing, income etc), everyone waiting "deserves" an apartment the same amount.

2: My view is that there's actually an inverse relationship between "deservedness" (taking personal situation in to account) and amount of time waiting, especially on decade timescales. People who have been waiting for 20 years are older, have had more time to potentially save money, are arguably more likely to have a resonable housing situation. Basically they are "point wealthy", they weren't forced to spend their queuing points on a bad apartment after 8 years, they are still collecting more points waiting for the nicer ones. And the fact that they can do that, to some extent, indicate that they are in a better situation.

(2b: It would eliminate the absurd situation when people live 30 years of their life in an expensive house, collecting queue points, and then sell the house and move into a rent controlled apartment.)

3: It would incentivise/allow a centralisation of the allocation system and increase mobility between cities.

Right now each city have one or a few different queues. People are generally not signed up to all queues across the country, because of hassle and cost (each queue is like 0-20 USD / year). So if I wanted to move to say Gothenburg, I would start from zero and be years away from an apartment.

Because of this, there is no interest from anyone to create a centralised queue. If everyone joined the central queue at birth, it would be meaningless!

But with a lottery based system, a central queue would be no problem. I could just select the cities I'm interested in at the moment, and have the same chance as everyone else. I could take a "bad" apartment, because I'm still in the lottery and might win a better one to upgrade,

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by nivenkos on Thursday August 26, 2021 @10:41AM (#28315564)
Fair enough.

I just hope they never abolish the restrictions on second hand contracts. That has completely destroyed London, Barcelona, etc. - where your landlord might just be some investor in Zurich or New York.

Also allowing for more remote work, so people can do more from smaller cities.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by 1053r on Thursday August 26, 2021 @10:39AM (#28315541)
Why isn't there more building? In most places that "need" rent control, it's because there are heavy restrictions on building. And rent control, all by itself, serves as a disincentive to build. Why should I invest in a new building when I can invest in something else that's less hassle, more liquid, etc.?

Not to mention historical controls on building, rules about shading out other buildings, onerous permitting processes that take years, potential lawsuits, the annoyance of prostrating oneself before random bureaucrats begging for the ability to spend one's own money, etc. I think I'll just go YOLO into options futures instead, or throw my money in a global index fund.

Each of these rules is well intentioned, or at least has a well intentioned sounding justification. (Often, the main force behind them is a monopolist who specializes in navigating them, and doesn't want to have to compete on an even footing in an open market.) Altogether, however, the rules make a sticky web that causes entrepreneurs to throw up their hands and go elsewhere.

Rules about building is like dessert. A few desserts is a good idea. A meal constructed entirely of dessert is not so healthy, especially in the long run. Figure out how to make it easy to build, and people will build. And those folks need to be wooed, not with sweetheart deals out of the public purse, but with a clear, easy to navigate regulatory environment. If you make it easy to compete, there will be much competition.

Overwhelmingly, though, there's no competition in these kinds of jurisdictions because powerful interests LIKE it that way. Think of those folks who spent EUR 10K on a square meter of condo. Are they going to be happy at your proposed regulatory reform that promises to quadruple the rate of building? Of course not! You are directly attacking their asset, that they strived and scrimped and worked for for years! Are they going to come out and say that? Only rarely. They are going to talk about the character of the neighborhood, or the historical significance of whatever, or the environmental impact of a skyscraper in the downtown, or make overtly racist comments about who might move into these new buildings, or anything that will rally people to their cause to STOP THAT BUILDING!

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by jlokier on Thursday August 26, 2021 @11:56AM (#28316591)
Is there really much immigration to Stockholm?

According to https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/SWE/sweden/net-migrati... net immigration to Sweden has been consistently dropping since ~2010, and at 0.3368% of the population per year, that doesn't sound like it would move the needle on housing.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by Too on Saturday August 28, 2021 @04:15AM (#28336473)
Build more? Where? Stockholm center is just islands and all of it is already built, at least the areas where everybody wants to live. Same goes for most big cities. Unless you want a skyscraper metropole.

If you want something cheap there are plenty of cheap apartments available in the suburbs.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by throwaway6734 on Thursday August 26, 2021 @10:30AM (#28315420)
Rent control decreases the incentive to build
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by nivenkos on Thursday August 26, 2021 @10:34AM (#28315470)
I'm not a property developer, so I don't know how many flats they are forced to rent out as first-hand contracts when building new blocks.

You can definitely buy apartments from new blocks though, and then you're just paying the normal market price.

Second-hand contracts and commercial rentals also aren't covered by the rent controls, but I imagine the property developers can't rent them like that directly (only by selling them).

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by epistasis on Thursday August 26, 2021 @10:39AM (#28315545)
How does it do that? Are the builders typically the same as the owners in Sweden? If so, I could see that being true. But if housing builders are different than the eventual owners, the have different economic interests, and rent control shouldn't limit housing production.
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by stonemetal12 on Thursday August 26, 2021 @11:07AM (#28315897)
Doesn't really matter who the owner is. If it costs 1 million to build a new apartment complex, and rent control means it will only return 500K in a reasonable time frame it doesn't get built. If it returns 1.5 million in a reasonable time frame it does. A builder isn't going to build it if no one will buy it, and no one will buy it if they lose money on the rent.
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by epistasis on Thursday August 26, 2021 @12:24PM (#28317017)
Rent control doesn't apply to the price of new housing, at least for any the many many versions of rent control I've seen. Rent control only limits the increases on existing housing.

The new building can charge whatever they want, they just can't depend on large increases in rent later on after their initial pricing. This same assumption, no huge rise in rents later, is also applied by financiers.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by sokoloff on Thursday August 26, 2021 @11:16AM (#28316020)
Housing is produced because there are buyers are willing to pay an amount $X that makes it attractive to build.

Anything that reduces that value $X likely has a negative influence on marginal housing construction.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by RandyRanderson on Thursday August 26, 2021 @06:39PM (#28321952)
Meanwhile in Vancouver:

. 1120 CAD/sqft

. median before tax household income (City of Vancouver) 72,585 CAD

. ~30pc tax -> ~51k after tax

. 400 sqft 1120= 448k. 15% = 62k for a 15pc downpayment for a 400sqft condo.

Summary: In Vancouver the median household* would not be able to save 15% of a down payment for a 400 sqft "home" if they spent NOTHING for a year. We'll ignore the fact that housing appreciated for many years here at more than 10%/y.

This is good for ppl like me b/c I own stuff and this situation forces ppl to work more for less money in jobs they hate. For folks starting out (incl new immigrants), it's terrible. The root cause is very high immigration. Sweden (and Canada) have very high rates which puts pressure on the low end of the job market and pushes up home prices.

The US has a much lower rate (0.5%/y) than Canada (1.1%/y), which is likely one reason why homes are still somewhat affordable there.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by BadInformatics on Thursday August 26, 2021 @10:05PM (#28323529)
Canadaland did a great series on the pathology of Vancouver real estate recently [1]. TL;DL there is no consensus on the root cause, but the usual suspects of bureaucracy, NIMBYism and foreign investment all make an appearance.

[1] https://www.canadaland.com/podcast/real-estate-3-terminal-ci...

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by beambot on Thursday August 26, 2021 @07:35PM (#28322409)
This plays out all over the place. Take San Mateo, California:

* Median pre-tax household income: $103k

* Post-Tax: $70k

* Median home price: $1.6M (~$1200 USD per sqft)

* 400 sqft: $480k (note: this is without the 20-30% premium you'd pay for smaller properties)

* 15% downpayment: $72k

Housing prices are broken all over the place...

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by RandyRanderson on Thursday August 26, 2021 @09:03PM (#28323124)
Many would say that comparing San Mateo, arguably part of silicon valley (the center of the technology business world-wide), to Vancouver (we have no real industry unless you count tourism or money laundering[0]) is at best disingenuous.

[0] https://complyadvantage.com/knowledgebase/vancouver-money-la...

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by BadInformatics on Thursday August 26, 2021 @09:54PM (#28323463)
Vancouver may have "no industry" relative to SV, but it is a veritable black hole for tech on the west coast of Canada. The same rat race of high-skilled, well-paying jobs only being available in HCoL cities is just as much of an issue north of the border. The even smaller gap between compensation and CoL in Vancouver, Toronto, etc. just serves to make things more miserable.
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by beambot on Friday August 27, 2021 @12:08AM (#28324197)
Huh. I was always told that Vancouver was a staging ground for Amazon & Microsoft folks who didn't want to or couldn't immigrate to the US.
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by timonoko on Thursday August 26, 2021 @10:50PM (#28323811)
When Helsinki had rent control, you always made a contract with some company, who then rented it to employees. Business-to-business rents were not controlled.

Quite convenient actually, as every company had its own renting agent, and money was always guaranteed.

When the rent control ended, renting turned into horrible shit-show. The register of good and bad customers was illegal and you could not easily check their financial status. And maximum security money was limited to 3 months. After few bad experiences I stopped renting out and just sold my apartment(s).

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by cromat3 on Thursday August 26, 2021 @10:58AM (#28315768)
Only 5 years sounds too good to me. In Zagreb, average price per m2 is about 2000 eur, and average monthly salary (in Zagreb) is little bit more than 1000eur which ia about 12000 eur per year. If you manage to save 20% you can get small 30m2 apartment in 25 years but most people go with credit loans which makes full repayment even longer.
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by filleokus on Thursday August 26, 2021 @11:23AM (#28316094)
5 years to save up for the _15% down payment_ :-).

Saving 20% of the post-tax salary will take you 30-something years to buy the apartment cash only.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by oh_sigh on Thursday August 26, 2021 @07:09PM (#28322189)
That doesn't sound too unreasonable, since people frequently get a 30 year mortgage and don't actually wait until they have a pile of cash to put on a house. At least, that's how it is in America, not sure about Croatia.
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by vmception on Thursday August 26, 2021 @10:32AM (#28315456)
One thing to understand about Sweden is that mortgage rates are lower and mortgage terms are much longer, up to over 100 years.

Sweden and a few other EU nations have their own Central Bank and can do distortions greater than the European Union Central Bank, while garnering even less publicity, let alone less local knowledge that these are strange actions.

Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by oolang on Thursday August 26, 2021 @11:56AM (#28316597)
You are absolutely right. This is by far the main reason. Even more so as in Sweden you usually have two mortgages. One personal which is used to purchase the property and one taken out by the co-op itself which you pay as part of the monthly fee. On top of that you are also personally liable for mortgage debt.
Re:Rent control isn’t working in Sweden by cloudfifty on Thursday August 26, 2021 @01:16PM (#28317696)
> I really hope that the rent-controls are abolished in my lifetime

Well, of course you want that if you have a large salary and can pay the rents other people can't. Why not support government lead building of housing according to need instead of just throwing out the poor as a "solution"?