There's a reason I choose to work remotely. I don't mind working closely with others, but leaving the household for two weeks straight simply isn't feasible, and certainly not more than once a year.
People make comments on either side because they feel they would enjoy X or Y, but they're not meaning to imply that we all hoover up the cool-aid and sacrifice all we have for it. Zdragnar doesn't come to the retreats because they would rather spend time with their family, most places would understand that or at least accept that it's your choice. If your boss doesn't get it, then maybe they'll do you the favour of firing you and you can find a team that does get it.
It's not a matter of "Good for family" or "Bad for family", it's a diverse world out there. Some people work away from home for a full 14 days and then have a full week at home of no work, for some people that's a great compromise. Some people have nothing else, so they like the interaction they get from work, for another example.
a factory worker in a european city in 1900 would not be working from home. (his home would probably be close to the factory yes, but not at home).
Also, raising children and making them spend time in education is only a relatively recent invention. Prior to ww1, child labour was common, especially as a farmer.
Thousands of workers don't have the enormous privilege of seeing their family every night. All those travel workers, remote health workers, and oil field workers manage to make it work.
Now, life is less flexible and I can't just run off for weeks at a time- some families can make it work, some cannot.
I've known several people who work for companies like this. It's always been scheduled months in advance such that by the time you go on one the next one is typically already locked in. And even the long ones have been 4-5 days, not "weeks." It just seems like you're intentionally making this into a strawman when "travel for work 4-5 days at a time, 1-3 times a year" is a perfectly reasonable job requirement. And even with all that being said, there's nothing wrong with just not wanting to do that.
> The idea of taking the team out to an airbnb (or some other communal living arrangement) in the woods or by the beach for a week or two to launch a new major initiative 1-4 times a year
Note that "week or two" and "1-4 times a year". It isn't a strawman, it is literally the topic.
As for > Why are you acting like you're going to be told on Thursday that you have to get on a flight across the country Sunday night?
I don't believe I ever expressed that the trips are surprises. It isn't a matter of planning, it is a matter of the duration being a burden.
I would personally be open to trying it once, but I have no idea if it would fit in my life as a regular occurrence or if it would be miserable and make me want to quit.
In fact, a 2 week trip to a cabin to focus on work and team building sounds fantastic... for me. My spouse, on the other hand, would not be having a great time. It certainly has a whiff of unintentional ageism.
That isn't my case, but I am also not going to assume the worst of someone for whom it isn't an issue and is simply not considerate.
Then again, I have also avoided working for any company that failed to commit to a healthy work-life balance.
A time honored silicon valley tradition!
Not all families are wonderful.
I’m now looking after the kids and have a full time job so there’s no option to take a flight or even go into the office.
Our team is fully remote (US and CA) and our industry has major conference events throughout the year around the world. So 3-4 times a year our whole team would go to a conference, then stay for an extra few days to do planning, an innovation sprint, or whatever else in person.
Many people would bring their families and stay an extra week to make it a vacation, especially in places like Paris, Vienna, US west coast in the winter, etc.
Oh god no, no, no, a million times NO.
I'm a mostly introverted person. I would MUCH rather go to the office 5 days a week for 8 hours each day than have to be stuck living with a group of coworkers for 2 weeks straight in a house in the woods.
After 8 hours of work the last thing I need is being forced to spend the rest of the 16 hours in the day with the same group of people.
If you're going to do a meet-up for a fully remote company, please do it in a location with several hotels and let every employee arrange their own accommodation reimbursed. Keep mandatory activities to no more than 6-8 hours a day, don't pressure people to spend their evenings and weekends drinking with the company. Outside of meeting hours, let people enjoy the place however they like -- adults are more than capable of figuring out recreational activities on their own, and you don't need to provide structure 24/7. If you pick Las Vegas I'm sure a whole bunch of employees will self-organize themselves and go gambling and drinking, but I have no interest in that stuff and you'll probably find me in some national park during the weekend.
Sure if you work in an industry where you're competing among a very small pool of highly-skilled specialists, you can't afford to miss out on key talent. But if we're talking about web devs for a start-up, why not?
Introverts are VERY GOOD at getting shit done. Introverts aren't opposed to teamwork and collaboration, it just means that when we get off work, we usually chill alone or occasionally with 1-2 close friends, instead of partying.
The hybrid model builds routine and trust, lets you respond to unexpected snags and complications quickly (~1-2 days latency), and allows for in-office creativity and then going home to execute on those ideas rapidly. It also fits reasonably well into existing family & daycare routines.
The retreat model could work for more established businesses in industries that don't change a lot, but that's not a startup. The biggest problem I see is that it encourages a high-latency, "go off for a quarter and work on this problem as your manager has defined it and then we'll all get together for show & tell and plan the next quarter" model. Since you know you'll see folks at the next retreat but it's a pain to schedule time with them beforehand, it incentivizes you to work within your silo and solve problems yourself and then have something to show at the retreat. We know this is a poor model for software development, from a few decades of experience. You lose the adaptability and low-latency communication of being in-person with your teammates on a weekly basis.
The big disadvantage of the hybrid model is that it doesn't do anything about the concentration of startups in a small number of hyper-dense metro areas, nor the exorbitant cost of rent in those areas. Arguably if that is the #1 problem facing the world these days (and it may be) the industry you want to go into is real estate, not startups, though.
It's not like there was no freedom to work elsewhere either. When I wanted to work somewhere else for a week or two I'd work it out with management, no problem.
Some people really want remote work, more power to them it looks like there will be plenty of that post-pandemic, but let's not pretend that many people won't be happy with the office being a regular part of their week.
This is how Automattic did it before the pandemic[1]. It works because they're clear during the hiring process that this sort of travel will be expected. I've always found it very valuable for getting everyone on the same page and for team morale/cohesion.
This ^ sounds incredible.
You still need to rent spaces because you need a place to meet, and the existing meeting room places are rather anodyne. We'd rent out a winery or similar.
Many people from my experience say that, given the option to work remotely or in office, they would prefer a flexible option that lets them come into the office maybe 2 or 3 days a week and otherwise work remotely. The idea seems to be that a lot of people like having human interaction and teambuilding, but not paying for that connection with 5 full commutes a week and 8 hours a day in a cubicle.
The idea of taking the team out to an airbnb (or some other communal living arrangement) in the woods or by the beach for a week or two to launch a new major initiative 1-4 times a year seems like it could theoretically be an alternative, providing that human connection but not demanding an outdated office lifestyle.
In theory, anyways.
I'm interested to see if this kind of thing becomes a major perk/attraction of the next generation of startups, much like the attractive offices of today's tech giants were "revolutionary" in the aughts. Then we can look forward to the big guys trying to copy the model and creating a horrific corporatized version of it.