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Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by rob74 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @05:53AM (#28232033)
When I read "avoid a catastrophic space collision", I thought about an asteroid hitting the earth and endangering life itself. Compared to that, a "catastrophic collision that knocks out one or more satellites key to their safety, economic well-being or both" sounds rather like an inconvenience. Of course, it could be "catastrophic" too, but there is catastrophe, and then there is catastrophe...
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by FiberBundle on Thursday August 19, 2021 @06:53AM (#28232332)
As far as I understand this actually would be a catastrophe. One collision creates a lot of debris, which then again increases the probability of further collisions and so on. You have an exponentially increasing probability of further collisions once you have one. In the worst case this could make rocket launches and satellites in orbit impossible.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by MichaelZuo on Thursday August 19, 2021 @07:43AM (#28232646)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome

The degree of exponential growth is still in question but the fact that it will be exponential, and will cause a huge headache eventually if left unchecked is pretty much accepted.

However, enforcement would run into the same problem that enforcing any resource in the international commons runs into, such as overfishing, oceanic/atmospheric pollution, etc.

Since it requires coordinated collective action of every space launching nation, it would require something like the UN security council to really punish nations that defect from the agreed upon program. which opens another can of worms.

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by Retric on Thursday August 19, 2021 @10:09AM (#28234017)
Kessler syndrome is still limited to a range of orbits. Very low earth orbit everything simply de orbits so fast it’s not a significant issue.

Geosynchronous orbit is quite packed, but everything is moving in the same direction which prevents the kind of exponential cascade that’s so concerning. Above geosynchronous orbit’s graveyard stays clear simply because little has the energy to reach that altitude.

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by retrac on Thursday August 19, 2021 @02:03PM (#28237158)
Yes, it's my understanding that, in practice, Kessler syndrome would most probably mean no geosynchronous satellites. It's slightly reassuring that that isn't as horrifying a proposition as it was thirty years ago. Recent advances would allow things like geonavigation and telecommunications to be supported with Starlink-style low orbit networks, even in that event.

Regarding simply transiting through our ex-satellite rings, I don't think there is consensus. Would it make launches beyond LEO practically impossible, or just theoretically risky in the way that blindly navigating the asteroid belt is? (You could hit something, but it's so little matter dispersed over so much space it'll probably just be extremely fine dust the shielding can handle. Probably.)

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by tgsovlerkhgsel on Thursday August 19, 2021 @06:10PM (#28239987)
GEO is only above the equator, i.e. launches beyond it shouldn't be seriously affected if there was a debris belt, unless it reaches a significant density beyond a narrow belt.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by mLuby on Thursday August 19, 2021 @12:48PM (#28236156)
To some degree that's true, though collisions will likely create cones of debris that extend significantly above and below the initial orbits, and those shards could smash satellites in those higher or lower orbits, thus continuing the chain reaction.

For example: two satellites collide head-on at an altitude of 300km, creating two debris clouds that extend from 250km to 350km. Each of those catches another satellite, one at 260km and another at 320km, which fragment into debris clouds reaching from 200km to 370km (all numbers made up).

Higher orbits, like geosynchronous, have a lot more space to work with and much slower relative velocities than low Earth orbits.

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by Retric on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:35PM (#28236800)
That debris cloud is an abstraction, actual post collision orbits of individual objects are what matters.

At 300km satellites experience significant drag and need regular boosts to maintain orbit. After collision individual objects orbit will almost always include it’s altitude at the point of impact and generally expends above and below that point. So while yes the cloud extends to higher orbit, everything would deorbit from your example extremely quickly.

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by pohl on Thursday August 19, 2021 @09:22AM (#28233487)
Your last sentence is depressing. We can't even muster enough e pluribus unum to combat a pandemic within the one nation that holds that motto on its great seal.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by khuey on Thursday August 19, 2021 @09:39AM (#28233685)
Dealing with space debris doesn't require individual action from hundreds of millions of people though. It requires the governments of eleven countries with orbital launch capabilities (counting the ESA as one) to work together.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by ycombobreaker on Thursday August 19, 2021 @10:38AM (#28234371)
11 Countries? The UN Security Council has five permanent members and they don't always work together (any one of the five can veto resolutions against its own exonomic interest).
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by MichaelGroves on Thursday August 19, 2021 @12:53PM (#28236237)
The UN Security Council isn't meant to be a politically nimble engine for progressive economic change; it's meant to prevent a shooting war between those major powers. Judging the UNSC by the standard of that design intent and purpose, the UNSC has been quite effective, a few regional proxy wars could have been much worse for everybody on this planet. We can call it a failure if/when America and China start WW3 and cover everybody else in fallout, but that hasn't happened yet. So far, the United Nations Security Council is working well.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by bt1a on Thursday August 19, 2021 @10:05AM (#28233972)
I'm not convinced that the latter is any easier than the former.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by roenxi on Thursday August 19, 2021 @10:11AM (#28234042)
There was an unparalleled global knee-jerk and the sort of global coordinated economic reorganisation we've never seen before in the entirety of history. The politics of the situation are still roiling under tensions and stresses that haven't been seen in decades. A vaccine has been rolled out roughly a quarter of the worlds population in 18 months. Vastly more efforts are hurtling through the economic system as humanity reorients its social and technological bearings. Never before has there been such a bleak future for the humble coronavirus.

The situation is neither pro- nor anti- our ability to organise at a mass level. This has been a remarkable 2 years to be alive and we've seen a level of urgent response that has never been achieved before, ever. With 3 years to prepare, anything is possible for this Kessler business.

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by samstave on Thursday August 19, 2021 @03:05PM (#28237931)
Why the fuck do we not have a system to harvest/kill/detonate already deployed satellites??

Thats pretty fucking simple science, is it not?

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by ashes-of-sol on Thursday August 19, 2021 @03:13PM (#28238031)
It's not.

First, it's not just satellites. There's hundreds of thousands of pieces the size of a marble that'll cause catastrophic damage. And even more smaller pieces, even millimetre long bits of paint have caused damage to vessels.

Second, harvesting (presuming you mean recovery) or just killing (presuming you mean de-orbiting with atmospheric burn up) require expending deltaV. There has been some interesting proposals for using laser ablation or tether based systems, but nothing that I know of that has gone past a paper proposal.

Detonating just adds to the problem.

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by samstave on Thursday August 19, 2021 @04:22PM (#28238886)
Thanks for the reply... perhaps a good policy would be to not allow any launch off-planet without a recovery / disablement plan?
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by vkou on Thursday August 19, 2021 @04:33PM (#28239014)
AFAIK, all modern satellites launches require a plan for decommissioning them when they reach EOL.

The problem is 'What happens when the plan fails due to design errors/bugs/accidents/breakages/etc'.

Recovery of a satellite is incredibly expensive.

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by samstave on Thursday August 19, 2021 @05:04PM (#28239349)
Space Satellite Recovery Startups are back on the menu boys!

We need both space junk recovery and ocean plastic recovery robots.

Recall that startup that tried to launch the ocean plastic/garbage gyre bot and it failed and no mega-corp tried to save them.

if anyone should be forced to help on this effort, it should be amazon/bezos

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by ctdonath on Thursday August 19, 2021 @06:57PM (#28240370)
Well, ycombinator is a place to change the world by incentivizing profit for doing so. Get some creative actuaries to run the numbers, sell satellite collision insurance, and fund a for-profit orbital janitorial service to improve profit margin on premiums.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by thih9 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @07:13AM (#28232458)
I think what GP meant is that this kind of catastrophe (i.e. worst case not being able to make rocket launches or use the orbit) is still better than an asteroid crashing into the earth and perhaps causing an extinction event.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by nautilius on Thursday August 19, 2021 @09:19AM (#28233455)
Sure, anything is less catastrophic than an extinction event. Where's your threshold? Tsunami in Indonesia? Tsunami in Fukushima? Hurricane Katrina? Do those count as catastrophes?

The problem isn't that we're no longer able to launch new rockets - it's that anything in space comes to a standstill when it gets destroyed. How about GPS is suddenly no longer usable, with planes in flight and ships somewhere on the ocean? Weather satellites allow no more observation, with no more forewarning for hurricanes, and no reliable planning of routes by either plane or ship. What will be the impact of both on modern agriculture? No more satellite based communication, etc.

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by thih9 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @04:42PM (#28239125)
> Where's your threshold?

I meant world scale extinction event like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous–Paleogene_extinct... . A layer of sediment literally everywhere, etc.

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by nautilius on Thursday August 19, 2021 @09:44PM (#28241483)
Well then I guess in your view no human has ever experienced a catastrophe. One may think many people will disagree (me for example).

How do you call, say, a disease that kills half of all humans? An inconvenience?

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by thih9 on Friday August 20, 2021 @05:02AM (#28244117)
I think you misunderstood? See earlier discussion. Specifically:

> Of course, it could be "catastrophic" too, but there is catastrophe, and then there is catastrophe...

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by nautilius on Friday August 20, 2021 @08:47AM (#28245370)
I did not. I specifically asked you for your threshold between catastrophe and catastrophe.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by mschuster91 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @09:43AM (#28233725)
We will find fallbacks. Humanity as a species is surprisingly resilient.

> How about GPS is suddenly no longer usable, with planes in flight and ships somewhere on the ocean?

Anything over land can be replaced by antennas sending out a signal from a known location, and receivers can triangulate their position from that. In-flight planes can use landmark plus compass based navigation, as well as (already existing) ground based navigation beacons, and pilots are trained on how to deal with all instruments gone dark scenarios. Ships can sail along land and use sextant navigation on the open seas (actually, the US Navy re-introduced training sailors in sextant use in 2016, to account for a no-electronics scenario!).

> Weather satellites allow no more observation, with no more forewarning for hurricanes, and no reliable planning of routes by either plane or ship.

The worst loss will be for everything over the open sea, but land based weather documentation will still be possible.

> What will be the impact of both on modern agriculture?

Not too much, technically we can gather everything agriculture needs from the ground, it's just way more effective and cheaper to observe from space.

> No more satellite based communication, etc.

That would not be a big loss, there exist (long forgotten outside of amateur radio) technologies to deal with that.

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by nautilius on Thursday August 19, 2021 @09:52PM (#28241534)
I don’t know what straw man you’re destroying here, no one claims humans will go extinct without spaceflight. But without any doubt the loss of all space flight will have a major impact on how humanity organizes trade, communications, travel, agriculture, intelligence, war/peace, science.

And sure, ‘solutions’ will be found. Here’s another one for your list that will diminish the impact of the loss of weather satellites: just strap someone to a weather balloon and have them draw what they see, and drop those drawings until the person runs out of oxygen. Is it as powerful/convenient as what we have today? Hardly.

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by macintux on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:18PM (#28236584)
You’re correct that all of these are addressable in isolation, given time, with some loss of utility.

However, if we experience a catastrophic problem in space, we’ll have to deal with all of them simultaneously, with extreme time pressures.

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by mschuster91 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @02:31PM (#28237472)
The scenarios where losing GPS would cause immediate issues (naval and air transport) have built in that possibility in their training for ages.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by headmelted on Thursday August 19, 2021 @07:24AM (#28232533)
For anyone that didn’t know, this is essentially the premise of the movie Gravity.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by mLuby on Thursday August 19, 2021 @12:51PM (#28236195)
Gravity strikes a good balance between realism and getting the point across to orbital-mechanics-unsavvy audiences.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by thatswrong0 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:09PM (#28236447)
I mean, it definitely showed how fast and destructive space debris can be. But I wouldn't say it really achieved a significant amount realism.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by mLuby on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:12PM (#28236485)
and that the debris is a cloud, and that it comes around again (which is very non-intuitive for us—explosions and shrapnel generally don't hit from the same direction more than once)
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by arglebarglegar on Thursday August 19, 2021 @09:08AM (#28233356)
maybe we need something like this to learn how to be more careful before launching garbage everywhere we go
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by ngcc_hk on Thursday August 19, 2021 @09:51PM (#28241526)
The question at stake is that there is no we here. Of course you can use the pronoun. But it does reflect the reality.

And one trap here is we must have a we. The old way is to say it must be a collective joint action is not right. There is a reason why we have carbon tax, which is a market solution to a commons issue. Not I am saying you can do that. But individual countries as individuals should be an option.

Sometimes there is no we. We may want to no we as well sometimes ;-)

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by ceilingcorner on Thursday August 19, 2021 @05:55AM (#28232048)
Adjective inflation. Yet another consequence of the advertising business model.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by dontreact on Thursday August 19, 2021 @06:09AM (#28232120)
Let’s say this business model were banned or didn’t exist. Getting people to choose to read your articles instead of the billions of other things they could be doing with their time on the internet would still be critical if you want to get them to subscribe.

I think it’s less to do with the business model of advertising but rather I think both that business model and the tendency towards inflating adjectives are both caused by there simply being too much information, entertainment etc. for us to make a reasonable decision of what to pay attention to. We’ve exceeded our own human capacities to process and choose between different streams of information.

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by ceilingcorner on Thursday August 19, 2021 @06:19AM (#28232171)
That might be true, but I think if a business doesn’t rely on views/advertising to fund itself, it has more room for creating a quality brand and attracting subscribers that way. As opposed to writing clickbait headlines.

This is essentially what the Financial Times does.

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by dalbasal on Thursday August 19, 2021 @06:46AM (#28232290)
Agreed. Social media's the prime example. Take Youtube's monetization. Creators are plugged into a payment per view world. That's definitely an aggravating factor, but the competition for attention is there in a similar form with or without the ad model.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by mistermann on Thursday August 19, 2021 @08:49AM (#28233167)
I think another cause that we do not notice or just take for granted is the way our language itself is designed, it almost seems deliberately designed to support imprecision, ambiguity, confusion, etc. without it being obvious the speaker had that intent.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by dalbasal on Thursday August 19, 2021 @06:32AM (#28232221)
"the advertising business model" or the modern world more broadly?

One way or another, there's a lot of short attention span razzle dazzle these days. Maybe adjective inflation is just positively correlated with the volume of media or even of people trying to talk to each other.

It's hard competing with impending asteroid collision.

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by ceilingcorner on Thursday August 19, 2021 @06:35AM (#28232236)
I follow many people online because I care what they have to say. Because I have read their works before and find their ideas insightful.

Not because they write clickbait headlines.

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by relativ575 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @04:08PM (#28238713)
How did you know about those to follow in the first place?

They are known because 1) they care to publish their opinion, and 2) they tell others about their work.

2) is also known as marketing, a.k.a. advertising. We're often told it isn't enough to do good work to advance our career, we have to tell others about it as well. How well you present your story has big impact on how far reached and well received your work can be.

Bottom line is, you are influenced by marketing/advertising, whether you want to admit it or not. You following someone is for sure not solely because of the quality of their work.

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by zz865 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @06:36AM (#28232239)
And add to that "The world must cooperate..." you know it'll never happen.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by zabatuvajdka on Thursday August 19, 2021 @07:31AM (#28232563)
Taking a step further, any nation could deliberately send a weaponized fleet to destroy satellites and then follow up with a ground strike.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by Qem on Thursday August 19, 2021 @04:02PM (#28238642)
Kessler syndrome itself could probably be weaponized as the cheapest superweapon ever. Say you rule over a small country, under risk of invasion by a much more powerful country, that relies heavily on GPS guided missiles, aircraft and ammunition. Probably it would not be very expensive to pick a couple fat satellites at the right orbital plane, blow them with small missiles able to reach orbital altitude, and let the resulting debris scattershot start a chain reaction to take down every GPS satellite in existence, rendering low to medium Earth orbit useless for centuries as a byproduct. Those smart ammunitions would be crippled overnight, forcing the more powerful country to risk old style boots-in-the-ground invasion, with much degraded technical support.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by lutorm on Thursday August 19, 2021 @06:35PM (#28240223)
Antisat weapons aren't exactly simple, either, though. It's only been successfully done a few times. Intercepting something at orbital velocity isn't trivial (unless you have the capability to actually launch something into a similar orbit and effect a gradual orbital rendezvous.)
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by Qem on Friday August 20, 2021 @12:06PM (#28247610)
I checked, my reasoning doesn't really apply to global positioning satellites, as they have orbits far outside the LEO, about 20000 km. There's not enough mass there yet to ensure a Kessler cascade. They would have to be targeted individually, a far more difficult task.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by JohnJamesRambo on Thursday August 19, 2021 @09:59AM (#28233891)
If only there was some sort of United Nation organization that wasn’t constantly undermined and turned into theater…
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by YinglingLight on Thursday August 19, 2021 @07:26AM (#28232541)
There is so much military hardware up there, military hardware disguised as civilian, satellites that were launched successfully but publicly described as a failure/"useless orbit".

The article is essentially asking that all countries need to share the location of their nuclear subs because the Ocean is getting crowded.

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by everyone on Thursday August 19, 2021 @06:04AM (#28232098)
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by hourislate on Thursday August 19, 2021 @10:40AM (#28234392)
According too this article it seems it could very well create some serious issues.

https://www.space.com/space-junk-collision-chinese-satellite...

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by shreddit on Thursday August 19, 2021 @06:23AM (#28232181)
“The world” is also a bit of a stretch if you mean a handful of countries
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by SunlightEdge on Thursday August 19, 2021 @06:00AM (#28232077)
That's how I read it too!
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by the-dude on Thursday August 19, 2021 @06:37AM (#28232250)
That doesn't sell.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by bluGill on Thursday August 19, 2021 @08:32AM (#28232984)
We can't grow enough food to support our population without GPS, so either this leads to mass starvation or we go back to 98% of the population becoming subsistence farmers. I'd guess the former - not enough people will be willing to work that hard until it is too late - we are out of food in the middle of winter and thus won't get more for a few months. (it would be possible to force some people to starve in early winter thus saving enough food for the rest)
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by davidhyde on Thursday August 19, 2021 @08:42AM (#28233096)
Maybe you’re right. As the general population uses less and less of their creative brains at some point they will be incapable of coming up with an alternative to gps (today someone would most likely have the cognitive capability to erect positioning beacons on their farm).
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by bluGill on Thursday August 19, 2021 @09:51AM (#28233812)
It isn't just making an alternative, it is rolling it out as well.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by kwhitefoot on Thursday August 19, 2021 @12:23PM (#28235802)
> We can't grow enough food to support our population without GPS

Can you justify this?

Edit: I mean can you provide an authoritative source or a plausible argument for believing this?

Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by bluGill on Friday August 20, 2021 @09:02AM (#28245477)
GPS allows significantly more crop to be grown on the same land. By giving plants the ideal spacing they harvest the amount of light they need without shading each other or letting light fall unused on the ground (or on weeds that in turn shade the plants). GPS also starts/stops each row of your planter as you cross already planted areas of the field, thus saving a lot of seed and in turn leaving more land free to grow crop instead of seed. GPS also always fertilizer to be placed where needed thus not over fertilizing some areas while under fertilizing others.
Re:The world must cooperate to avoid colliding satellites an... by kwhitefoot on Friday August 27, 2021 @12:34PM (#28329834)
So far so good, but none of that answers my question.