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Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by jcims on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @09:28AM (#28209605)
Video of the lifecycle of HIV. To me it's absolutely mind-blowing to think that this entire process developed on its own, in dark, and is mindlessly progressing along so effectively that despite all of our technological capability we can barely contain it.

https://vimeo.com/260291607

(also how awesome is the music?)

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by jeremycw on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:27AM (#28210204)
Sometimes I find it a little depressing that (at least through my laymen eyes) we are nearing a technological plateau and that more research into physics is unlikely to get us to a world describe in traditional science fiction with FTL drives and large metal spaceships that can take you from planet to planet.

Then something like this reminds me that if we as a species were able to unlock the secrets of bio-chemistry (not sure if that's the right term) it would be a game changer unlike any seen so far. And the fact that there is a huge corpus of evidence out there in the world called "life" proving some of the possibilities already gives me hope that while we may never have FTL, the future could still be pretty wild.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by majewsky on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:51AM (#28210484)
> we are nearing a technological plateau

Max Planck was famously discouraged from studying physics by one of his professors because "in this field, almost everything is already discovered, and all that remains is to fill a few holes." [1]

Having studied physics myself, my opinion is that we may very well be at a similar point right now. The big advancements of the last century in physics (quantum theory, relativity, chaos theory, etc.) brought us an era of swift and sweeping technological progress, and now the easy fruit seems to have been plucked. But there are still plenty of known unknowns, dark matter and dark energy being perhaps the most prominent one. Who knows what unknown unknowns are hiding behind those known unknowns?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_von_Jolly

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by nn3 on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:15AM (#28210777)
Dark matter seems like a gigantic hole. Either we don't know what most of the cosmos is made of, or there is a problem with general relativity.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by pedrocr on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @06:16AM (#28219369)
And then dark energy is more than 2x that. Apparently we only have a good explanation for 5% of the total (normal matter we can see).
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by mschuster91 on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @12:02PM (#28211345)
> Having studied physics myself, my opinion is that we may very well be at a similar point right now.

We're not anywhere near a technological plateau, we just lost track on funding. Until the fall of the Soviet Union, the US invested a lot of money in foundational research, often not even caring if it would prove useful or possible, and with big enough money behind it that people could plan careers.

These days, researchers have to waste half their working time to chasing the few grants that are still available, and forget about a stable career, job security or enough work-life balance to found a family.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by xtracto on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @01:32PM (#28212540)
It's really too sad ... I (PhD on CompSci) could helping on the research of something groundbreaking for humanity instead of "maximizing shareholder profits". But Academia basically sucks in its current state, and in my country there is less than 0 capabilities to do real research.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by lkbm on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @01:39PM (#28212614)
I do want us to pour money into foundational research, but form an outsider's perspective, it does seem like a lot of it does require increasingly large capital costs with things like the LHC, and feels all so theoretical.

I think it's worth every penny, but at first glance it feels incredibly abstract and disconnected from practical application, as well as expensive. (Though, to be honest, I just looked up the LHC cost and $9Bn USD doesn't feel expensive. I was expected it to come up in the hundreds of billions.)

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by lkbm on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @01:33PM (#28212544)
Lord Kelvin famously said there were just two "clouds" in left to physics—two mysteries remaining to explain. Those two mysteries let to relativity and quantum mechanics.

There's also this famous quote that is frequently mis-attributed to Kelvin: "There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now. All that remains is more and more precise measurement".[0] (I'm not sure who actually said it.)

[0] https://www.quora.com/Which-19th-century-physicist-famously-...

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by boringg on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:17AM (#28210808)
Time. We still don't think about time properly - there are likely some huge technological gains if we can unlock time in relation to physics (not in terms of sci fi time traveling).
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by koheripbal on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:47AM (#28211155)
Along the same lines, FTL won't be needed if we merge with technology and live indefinitely long.

One human lifespan will be seen as a trivial amount of time to the next step of humanity.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by beeboop on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @06:34PM (#28215569)
This isn't entirely accurate. We will not be able to visit the vast majority of the universe even given infinite time if we are not able to travel faster than light. Like 94% of the universe is unreachable without FTL, even without time constraints.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2016/05/12/the-...

And at some point we also don't have infinite time - we will have heat death of the universe at some point too.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by TheCoelacanth on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:44AM (#28220830)
The remaining 6% is still orders of magnitude larger than would be involved in a typical space opera.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by beeboop on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @03:54PM (#28226290)
I've never actually looked up what the "quadrants" are in Star Trek. Apparently just our one galaxy divided into four. 6% of the universe is indeed an unfathomably large amount of space.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by mpweiher on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:28AM (#28210938)
There's also the minor issue that probably our two best physical theories, quantum dynamics and general relativity, are incompatible.

So they can't both be right.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/nov/04/relativity-quan...

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by treeman79 on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:55AM (#28210524)
Gravity. Still the biggest unknown.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by billti on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:01AM (#28210615)
Do we even have a total understanding of light, or electricity? (I may be wrong, but I thought there were still some pretty fundamental unknowns)
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by XCSme on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:20AM (#28210832)
It depends on what you mean by "understanding". We can explain using a specific set of rules how something works. It doesn't mean that those rules are the best way to explain it or that they are even correct.

For example, we could explain that electricity works because of how electrons move, which would be correct from our point of view, but if we find out that we were living in a simulation, then the explanation would be that this is how "electricity" was coded to behave.

Also, usually in physics a formula is thought to be correct until some new laws/rules are found, then the formula is updated by adding some extra terms and then again thought to be correct.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by z3t4 on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:29AM (#28210952)
To summarize: we know how to smash two particles together, but not much about what they are made of. Replace particles with stones and bones. 10000 years of science progress and we are still smashing things. With the occasional lab accident like discovering that mold kills bacteria.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by whimsicalism on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:43AM (#28211124)
Maybe at a certain point "what they are made of" ceases to be a meaningful question.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by gmadsen on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @12:06PM (#28211404)
Quantum electrodynamics is the most precise and accurate theory ever created. So not sure what you mean exactly by understand.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by jhrmnn on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @03:33AM (#28218547)
One big difference—the discoveries waiting to be made in the early 20th century all concerned regular matter. As a result, once they were made, they enabled huge technological advancements.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by ren_engineer on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:09AM (#28210710)
>we are nearing a technological plateau and that more research into physics is unlikely to get us to a world describe in traditional science fiction with FTL drives and large metal spaceships that can take you from planet to planet.

strange to me how nobody questions why beavers only make damns a certain size, birds only make nests and don't go beyond that in complexity.

So many people seem blind to the idea that humans might be near their intellectual limit as a species and assume we will just keep progressing technologically. For all we know it's possible we hit a brick wall in terms of progress. Average human struggles with calculus, what if there was a species that could do advanced math as easily as we do 2 + 2?

Seems the limit for human advancement is tied to rate of learning, life span, and general cognitive ability. If you want more advanced tech you need to focus on those problems

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by joshmarlow on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:26AM (#28210911)
I've often wondered about this. My suspicion is that there is a limit to the complexity of mental models that humans can fluently manipulate and I think we're starting to bump into it in some cases.

I think we will eventually need a paradigm shift from science being built around human grokable models (e=mc^2) to external human manipulatable models (ie, large scale machine derived models that we can't actually grok but can use for analysis and engineering). I think we're already starting to see this - there are already mathematical proofs that are so large and complex (in the GB range) that they had to be found by automation and only other automation can verify them.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by raxxorrax on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @06:11AM (#28219339)
We have tons of numerical simulations in engineering. Light modulation alone, just 3-5 lenses with different qualities can occupy a modern processor for a few hours.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by mikepurvis on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:24AM (#28210890)
> ...strange to me how nobody questions why beavers only make damns a certain size, birds only make nests and don't go beyond that in complexity.

Isn't most of this kind of just a matter of fitness, same as why birds become flightless on islands where there are no predators which demand flight to escape from? Basically, building anything more than a minimally-viable nest or a dam requires using energy that could be invested elsewhere to greater evolutionary advantage.

Humans have gone beyond because for as long as we can remember, we've always had vast, vast surpluses of energy, initially through the cooking of meat and agriculture, then via animal labour, and then finally via fossil fuels.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by mr-wendel on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:18AM (#28210817)
I love the analogy, but I think it flawed: the limits are practical and excess just adds risk.

On the flip side, nothing seems more exemplified by humanity than a zeal for doing a thing as big and grandiose as possible: for curiosity, for business, for art, or just for sheer vanity.

I don't think we've seen how far those will take us yet, even w/o improvements to the bottlenecks you suggest. I do agree that those "meta" fields matter and will make a huge difference.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by gugagore on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:24AM (#28210888)
> strange to me how nobody questions why beavers only make damns a certain size, birds only make nests and don't go beyond that in complexity.

Probably because beavers and birds have made dams and nests the same way for the past 100 years, whereas humans in the same time have developed a bunch of tools and can specialize and distribute the fruits of their expertise without requiring others to be experts themselves.

Perhaps it's not true that on average we know more e.g. math now than we did 100 years ago, because there are so many more people. I believe we are nonetheless much better at teaching and learning now.

It's more than possible that all of this growth will be our downfall, and that that will regulate our growth, however.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by Andrew_nenakhov on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:16AM (#28210783)
Life span is hardly a limiting factor. It is known that most scientific breakthroughs were made by people in their twenties-early thirties.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by ren_engineer on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:24AM (#28210887)
what if you could extend that academic "prime" by 30 years or longer?
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by Andrew_nenakhov on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:41AM (#28211097)
It would do little, I think. Not because people get less smart with age, but because with years they establish themselves in their field, and become more conservative and less willing to shake the status quo.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by colordrops on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:23AM (#28210877)
I normally buy into this sort of logic, but there's a fundamental difference. We experience the world in a way that recognizes beavers' and birds' limits, whereas they do not. We can modify ourselves and our environment in a way and changes our limits. Perhaps if the world is a simulation, then there are hard limits, as we are but bits in a computer so to speak, but even then it's not certain - we could become aware of the world outside the simulation and learn to manipulate it thought I/O mechanisms.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by MisterBastahrd on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:13AM (#28210751)
Average humans struggle with calculus because we have instructed average humans that calculus is hard. If we taught it to 12 year olds as a routine matter, average 12 year olds would know calculus.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by inglor_cz on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:49AM (#28211178)
You can teach smart (not average) 12 year olds the basic rules how to compute derivation or primitive function, but I doubt they are capable of distinguishing between, say, continuous and uniformly continuous function. Which is actually pretty important when trying to reason your way around calculus.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by mschuster91 on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @12:04PM (#28211371)
> strange to me how nobody questions why beavers only make damns a certain size, birds only make nests and don't go beyond that in complexity.

Unlike humans, beavers and most species of birds don't work cooperatively, which means they can't separate the workload needed for survival (e.g. one group hunts, one group builds dams, one group does childcare).

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by specialist on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:06AM (#28210679)
We'll reach the stars thru life sciences. Future humans will become space and time adapted. Hardened against radiation. Metabolism so slow that years will feel like minutes.

The future will be pretty wild.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by thatcat on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:47AM (#28211156)
I'm not so sure that is the case, simply for economic and social reasons. Climate change is a much more tractable and immediate problem, yet technological developments and their implementations still seem to be moving too slowly to matter at the moment.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by Stupulous on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @01:31PM (#28212531)
Solar has dropped 50-75% in cost in the last decade, and accounts for 10x more wattage. Battery capacity has doubled in that time. Wind energy capacity has doubled. Geothermal capacity is 1.5x. Electric cars are 4x more common than they were 5 years ago. Carbon sequestration has advanced at a technological level, although production hasn't seen serious advances (probably because renewable energy produces a profitable resource, while sequestering just exchanges money for fighting climate change).

If that's not enough to make a difference, it's because we started too late and the problem is too large, not because technological development is too slow. Admittedly, nuclear could have done the job already, and the issue there is social.

If human lifespan technology moved at half the climate change technology speed, we'd have 25 extra years per decade and be effectively immortal today.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by specialist on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @12:50PM (#28211995)
It seems to older me that punctuated equilibrium is some kind of natural law.

Incremental progress may be ideal. Alas, whatever forces that may be, trying to preserve the current equilibrium, fight off change. Until the compulsion to change overwhelms the system.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

So when humanity finally goes carbon negative, it'll be despite the opposition, because they couldn't defend the status quo any longer. Then all that bottled up change will be like a dam bursting.

Hopefully it'll happen sooner than later.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by vidarh on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @12:05PM (#28211386)
Instantly made me think of Cordwainer Smith. In particular "Scanners live in vain", but many of his stories deal with adaptations to space.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by croes on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:26AM (#28210912)
What if this is just not possible?
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by cblconfederate on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:38AM (#28211055)
We can send persons without sending humans. With a good enough brain-computer interface we should be able to duplicate our brain contents to a digital medium, which we know can travel to interstellar space and beyond
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by unionpivo on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @03:50PM (#28214045)
Complex computers break down too. It might well be true that any computer capable of approximated human intelligence is even more fragile than normal human.

I don't think we are capable building computer system (and that includes power system for running it) right now that would last few hundred years without any maintenance, even here on planet.

Or it would at least be very non trivial to build it

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by cblconfederate on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @03:51PM (#28214066)
we currently have at least 2 functioning computers in interstellar space that are 44 years old. I think we are already at a point that we can make centuries-lasting computers
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by croes on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:51AM (#28211199)
We are far away from such an interface and space travel takes still far too long. When the first probe reaches another galaxy mankind is probably already gone or we are back in post war dark ages.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by cblconfederate on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @12:05PM (#28211381)
> space travel takes still far too long.

Who cares about humans, as a traveling satellite i will have all the time in the universe, literally

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by croes on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @02:39PM (#28213299)
And then? What the purpose of a conscience at a faraway planet? Something like We Are Legion (We Are Bob)?
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by cblconfederate on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @03:19PM (#28213746)
whats the purpose of conscience in this planet? purpose is not necessary, though one could say discovery is a purpose, boldly go where no man has gone before
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by 3520 on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @12:09PM (#28211444)
I wonder if people will view it as sufficient that a digital copy of 'them' (or at least something identical to them at the point of copying) exists, despite their original biological minds eventually perishing.

It excites me to think about discovering the origin of our consciousness and being able to transfer that.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by specialist on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:47AM (#28211157)
I definitely want to believe. Then we can explore other galaxies.

But I still can't even imagine what consciousness is.

Maybe we'll create new intelligences, punt on the consciousness question, and delegate the task to them.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by specialist on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:43AM (#28211116)
Ya, that'd suck. But consider. Tardigrades are pretty tough. And elephants have x10 more cancer fighting genes than us apes.

Pretty soon, parents will be picking their kid's eye color and temperament. For better or worse. Surely future humans will become a great deal hardier than ourselves.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by croes on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:57AM (#28211281)
Genetics is complex and we don't even can handle complexity in computer programs.

Maybe we can choose eye color, but temperament? Far too complex, far too many possible side effects.

Just look what happened of the dream that AI could help with Corona

https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/07/30/1030329/machine-...

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by daddylongstroke on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @06:50PM (#28228132)
> Surely future humans will become a great deal hardier than ourselves.

It is currently trending in the other direction.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by kiba on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:34AM (#28210292)
Sometimes I find it a little depressing that (at least through my laymen eyes) we are nearing a technological plateau and that more research into physics is unlikely to get us to a world describe in traditional science fiction with FTL drives and large metal spaceships that can take you from planet to planet.

FTL drive is not needed; people think too small.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by dsign on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:36AM (#28210307)
That's absolutely true, but I wonder what it will take to take that point home for everybody.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by ddingus on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:51AM (#28210479)
The first big project. After that there will be movies explanations stories expectations all that stuff. And to some degree it's already out there. We have those things now related to travel that's not faster than light.

And tell somebody put something together for real, FPL is just a whole lot more sexy.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by vdqtp3 on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @12:08PM (#28211430)
I've read a couple scifi stories about sophisticated alien civilizations with FTL drives who were then shocked when they found out humans were just folding space and had instantaneous travel. HFY! Obviously it's fiction, and who knows if it'll ever happen or if it's possible - but my point is that we don't know what we don't know, and it could be way cooler than we can even imagine.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by Counterpointv on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:19AM (#28210824)
As a counter point, here is Chamath talking about the advent of room temperature superconductors in 20 to 30 years

https://streamable.com/ku3orn

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by whimsicalism on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:50AM (#28211186)
We haven't even developed normal pressure room temperature superconductivity, let alone mass manufacture.

Also, why should I privilege what Chamath has to say on this subject more than any random commentator?

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by hutzlibu on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:44AM (#28210393)
"we are nearing a technological plateau"

Well, using that analogy, I would say, it took us indeed great efforts to reach it, but now we have vast land to colonize - meaning applying all that groundbreaking research into everything. There are so many more technologies avaiable, than just what you can buy on the market.

Sci-Fi is very possible.

edit: oh and about FTL:

I know I do not really understand quantum physics and co. but I think I understand, that no one really understands it yet - so I do not expect FTL in my lifetime, but I would not rule it out.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by whimsicalism on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:44AM (#28210385)
Disagree that we are reaching a technical plateau at all. Maybe in some parts of particle and AMO physics, but cosmology continues to advance and we are continuing to learn a lot.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by godelski on Friday August 20, 2021 @12:09PM (#28247641)
Don't be. Science usually hours plateaus but if we've learned anything from history is that there's always mountains ahead. The problem is we're searching on the dark. A flat spot doesn't mean we're at the top. In fact, we even know there's a lot of mountains ahead, we just aren't sure how to climb them yet or what we'll find along the way. But that's no reason not to climb them.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by ianai on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:44AM (#28210390)
It might help if we had literature fleshing out some ideas of how alternatives could work. Ie how we could become a species more in harmony with a large biosphere - ala Jim Henson’s Dark Crystal. Though it’d have to be a human way of life.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by specialist on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:16AM (#28210791)
> a species more in harmony with a large biosphere

Garden Earth.

The biggest cultural change for attaining "sustainability" is metaphoric, from extraction to management. Maybe somewhat ironically, proponents should go all Old Testament. Stewards of the Earth and so forth.

Many of our prior cultures had at least some form of this. I don't know when or why we stopped being so. Maybe due to the Enlightenment and then Industrialization.

I vividly remember reading René Descartes as a kid and being shocked by his violent language and metaphors. Stuff like "We must wrest Nature's secrets and make her submit to our will" (paraphrasing, from memory).

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by lmilcin on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:41AM (#28211100)
I don't agree.

There is so much to learn about the world around us without even hitting physics limits.

And then so much to do with that knowledge.

I am not worried we will run out of problems to solve.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by api on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:59AM (#28210584)
If we can get good enough at bioengineering, a 50,000 year flight to another star using conventional propulsion might not be such a big deal.

The seeming requirement of FTL to explore the universe is 100% a function of our short life span. If we can't make spacecraft go faster we have to make ourselves last longer.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by Beldin on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:37AM (#28211051)
We'll also have to take food for the whole duration, or develop a taste for hydrogen atoms alongside a functioning Bussard ramjet.

Oh, the rocket equation really doesn't like option 1.

(Hypothesis: any process we can devise to turn hydrogen into sustenance will be orders of magnitude less efficient than using it as propellant.)

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by api on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @12:02PM (#28211347)
Food can be recycled pretty effectively, and if were that good at biotech I assume we could improve on the current state of the art.

They already recycle water very effectively on the ISS. It's the machine that "turns yesterday's coffee into today's coffee."

Of course if we were that good at biotech we could probably hibernate a good chunk of the flight time too. Might be necessary to wake up periodically to reset the body, but you could probably hibernate most of the duration. Maybe you'd do it with some kind of weird circadian cycle with extremely elongated sleep periods, sleeping like 10X-100X as long as you are awake. During each wake period you check to make sure everything is working properly.

You would not need a Bussard ramjet for the long duration flights I'm thinking of. A nuclear thermal rocket could get you a good deal past solar system escape velocity. Nuclear pulse propulsion could get you up to at least single digit percentages of the speed of light if you didn't mind a little boom-boom. Then you just cruse along on an interstellar transfer orbit until you do a retro-burn to enter the destination star system a few tens of thousands of years later. These are all technologies that are already feasible at least on paper. No new physics is needed.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by xyzzyz on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:43AM (#28211123)
We would only small amounts of food, if we could efficiently recycle it. Right now, we use plants/animals and solar energy to upcycle our waste products into food. However, there are no physical reasons that we couldn’t use electricity and managed bioreactors to do that instead.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by _trampeltier on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:59AM (#28210579)
Great video! If you wonder, how we know things look like this, here is a talk about it: 34C3 - Free Electron Lasers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKqof77pKBc

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by secondcoming on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @12:46PM (#28211948)
That was awesome. What a great presenter. Thanks
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by gonzo41 on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:30AM (#28210972)
That is a fantastic video. Also, omg biochemistry is just staggeringly amazing. Whilst that video is short, the information it contains is just staggering when you think of the years and years of research that's been done on that virus.

Good luck to Moderna.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by hart_russell on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:36AM (#28211031)
That video is just insane. The way the HIV virus completely hacks the T-cell to become a factory seems akin to a very complicated computer hack. It would be elegant if it weren't so deadly.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by jarpschop on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:05AM (#28209987)
Natural selection is a very powerful process.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by mbroncano on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:09AM (#28210028)
* given enough time
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by pintxo on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:09AM (#28210031)
when executed over millions of years
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by jcims on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:05AM (#28210666)
In practice this is what we observe, but the combinatorics are so ridiculously large that its hard to understand how it works. A very small protein of say 200 amino acid residues has 21^200 configurations. If every atom in the universe was another universe, and every atom in those universes was a universe, you'd still need 10^20 grandpappy universes to represent each configuration as a distinct atom in the grandchild universe. Given that these configurations confer meaningful chemical and mechanical utility, sometimes with discontinuities in effect, it's really odd to me that it all somehow works.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by whimsicalism on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:45AM (#28210403)
Much shorter time frames than that are still powerful, especially for something like a virus.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by est31 on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:47AM (#28210429)
Yeah the number of generations is more important than the number of years.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by ddingus on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:53AM (#28210510)
We may receive that education somewhat directly and immediately through covid, and failure to vaccinate people.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by callmeal on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @01:22PM (#28212403)
>To me it's absolutely mind-blowing to think that this entire process developed on its own, in dark,

Richard Dawkins has a very good explanation for this in The Blind Watchmaker.

>and is mindlessly progressing along so effectively that despite all of our technological capability we can barely contain it.

There's technological capability and America's punishment fetish because people who get aids "deserve it". If we really wanted to, we would have had one.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by AlexanderTheGr8 on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @02:27PM (#28213185)
I haven't read the book. Can you please summarize Richard Dawkins's explanation? I am quite curious how something this complex can be generated by nature.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by cowboysauce on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @12:13PM (#28211495)
>and is mindlessly progressing along so effectively that despite all of our technological capability we can barely contain it.

In theory we already have the technology to eliminate HIV. People taking PrEP have a >99% reduced chance to catch HIV. The drugs used to treat HIV can reduce viral levels in HIV+ people to the point that it's impossible for them to transmit it.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by newbamboo on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:07AM (#28210012)
If only we had a Project Warpspeed for AIDS.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by est31 on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:10AM (#28210724)
Caused by the initial shock of AIDS, and ongoing activism, there has been consistent funding from federal and various private sources in development. Thanks to these efforts, antiretrovirals are widely available, making AIDS a "solved" problem in the sense that you can prevent AIDS onset indefinitely with the right medication.

Right now, the problem is more about actually accessing the people who might have HIV, getting them to test themselves regularly, and then giving them access to HIV medication if they are positive. Often these people are on the fringes of society. A vaccine would be an ideal tool to reach these people than asking them to get tested regularly.

HIV is a way harder virus to develop a vaccine for than SARS-CoV-2. For starters, once you have it, HIV is way more dangerous. Most people with covid don't need medical attention at all, they can deal with it themselves. Meanwhile, someone infected with HIV is basically sentenced to death in a couple of years if they aren't medicated (>90% mortality rate). The current covid pandemic is so severe because covid spreads so much better than HIV does. Our immune system can't really deal with HIV in a way that we survive the encounter. With SARS-CoV-2 you only need to slightly nudge the immune system into the right direction. That's a way easier task.

HIV also has an immensely large mutation rate. The genetic diversity in a single individual is larger than the genetic diversity of one entire yearly influenza outbreak. So you need to come up with defenses that help against a gigantic set of HIV viruses. We still need to vaccinate people yearly with an influenza shot, because we can't create universal influenza vaccines yet. It's an open problem similar to how a HIV vaccine is an open problem.

TLDR: There is already something like warp speed for HIV, but we were mostly lucky that it was so easy to come up with a covid vaccine.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by sterlind on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @03:41PM (#28213974)
apparently HAART sort of ages people's organs, according to patients' testimonials. that's better than dying of AIDS but still not ideal.

also, doesn't your immune system lose like 30% of its T-cells after you seroconvert, but prior to developing AIDS? iirc that's why HIV+ people are considered immunocompromised regardless of viral load.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by est31 on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @03:57PM (#28214135)
Yeah, HAART is not side effect free, but one has come a long way from the initial retrovirals which had way more severe side effects.

As for the CD4+ T cells, you are right that their numbers decrease before it's called AIDS. In some individuals the counts can successfully recover to "normal" levels. According to studies, it depends on how early you start treatment.

https://www.aidsmap.com/news/dec-2018/cd4-count-recovery-fre...

https://www.nature.com/articles/mi201558

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by epistasis on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:15AM (#28210080)
The history of HIV research has had a lot of valiant work. We have had several vaccine attempts in the past, that have all been unsuccessful.

And despite President-level dismissal of HIV/AIDS at the time, significant resources were devoted to it in the 80s, such that even though we didn't make huge progress against HIV at the time, the research on HIV progressed the rest of the field.

And a lot of our anti-viral drugs have come out of HIV research as well.

A modern Project Warpspeed probably wouldn't be quite as successful as a Covid19 Warpspeed, because a lot of the first ideas have already been attempted. But with the new sorts of designs that mRNA vaccines allow, there's a lot more that's possible now.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by Scoundreller on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:14AM (#28210073)
Most in congress didn’t think they would be impacted by AIDS.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by bluGill on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:13AM (#28210760)
Most won't be. HIV spreads by things that most in congress are unlikely to take part in. (sharing needles). While there are a lot of sex scandals in congress, the form of those activities is mostly low risk (low odds that the partner has HIV, and sex in a form that makes spread unlikely).

Of course the above is about odds. Individual exceptions do not prove me wrong.

That doesn't mean HIV isn't horrible. It also doesn't mean congress is right for the right reasons.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by Scoundreller on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:23AM (#28210881)
Congress depends on the blood supply more than average, but the risk to the blood supply was largely ignored because AIDS was supposed to be a homosexual/drug user disease in their minds.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by nieve on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @05:52AM (#28219242)
I was shocked to learn that Isaac Asimov died from complications of AIDS acquired via transfusion, but his doctors insisted on keeping it a secret from the public.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by bluGill on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @08:47AM (#28220324)
For the most part our blood supply has good protection for blood born illness (between rules that prevent the high risk from donating and testing). That wasn't always the case. It is best to keep the mistakes of the past un talked about so that we don't spread fear of the blood supply which would kill far more people.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by jdavis703 on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:01AM (#28210612)
And until Congress changed parties in 2021, most didn’t think they’d be impacted by COVID.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by Scoundreller on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @11:23AM (#28210884)
That’s what they said, but I want to know their vaccination records.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by dynamite-ready on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @01:44PM (#28212664)
Is HIV uniquely sophisticated, or are there other viruses out in the wild like this?
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by jonplackett on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:36AM (#28210311)
It makes you question the way we call animals / humans 'complex' life when you see how insanely intricate what happens on such a tiny scale even in something as small as a virus.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by pjc50 on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:40AM (#28210353)
We are then "more complex": we contain multitudes, some of which (gut bacteria, mitochondria, gametes) look like entirely separate life forms of their own.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by jonplackett on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:46AM (#28210420)
I guess we're many, many orders of magnitude more complex.

I just think it's wrong to call tiny 'simple' life, just because we are so insanely complex.

Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by zamadatix on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @12:06PM (#28211395)
Good luck finding anything that still seems "simple" when you really look towards understanding how it works rather than what it results in. Simple and complex always have to be relative to other things as nothing is absolutely "simple" e.g. even a single atom is an extraordinarily complicated environment which spans many textbooks and degrees worth of interactions and understandings. To say everything is just complex to more super duper extra complex is to just replace the sound of "simple" with the sound of "complex" yet have it mean the exact same thing and use it in the exact same way.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by whimsicalism on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:44AM (#28210398)
? Animals contain millions of similarly complex processes within them, that is what makes them 'complex' compared to a simple virus.
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by SevenSigs on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:12AM (#28210064)
For some reason, it reminds me of the passion flower: https://i.imgur.com/Efy2Iq4.png
Re:Moderna Is About to Begin Trials for HIV Vaccine by rlopezcc on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @10:40AM (#28210357)
Trigger warning: Trypophobia