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Re:Economic costs of war by Grakel on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:11PM (#28204030)
There isn't an "opportunity cost" as the article discusses, there's no evidence that Congress would have spent that money on something else. It doesn't sit in an account and then they allocate it, they make it up on paper and then try (and fail) to cover it later.
Re:Economic costs of war by Retric on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:27PM (#28204139)
The simplest way to look at it is the national debt would be 22.6T instead of 28.6T. That’s one option where nothing changes except war or no wars. Many people say national debt has zero impacts but eventually nobody is going to be lending the US money if we don’t pay our debt, which one way or another leads to a world of hurt.

However, to get that debt we needed to borrowing money from someone and agree to pay them interest. We could have also browned the same money and lowered taxes, or borrowed the same money and had free universal healthcare or whatever other government spending we wanted.

That’s what opportunity cost means.

Re:Economic costs of war by valzam on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:35PM (#28204219)
`nobody is going to be lending the US money if we don’t pay our debt,`

1) The Fed can loan money by simply creating new dollars and purchasing treasury bills. This has been happening for a long time, T-Bills do first get offered to private institutions but the Fed backstops all auctions.

2) There is literally no way for the US Gov to go involuntarily bankcrupt because of 1). It is the sole manufacturer of US dollars and can always create more.

Re:Economic costs of war by Retric on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:38PM (#28204252)
Read up what happens when countries start creating money from thin air rather than borrow it. Very bad things happen.

100 quintillion (10^20) pengő, the largest denomination bill ever issued, Hungary, 1946.

Re:Economic costs of war by valzam on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:56PM (#28204429)
Well, apparently they become economic superpowers because that is what all powerful nations with monetary sovereignty and fiat money have been doing under the guise of government debt.

Hyperinflation largely happens in countries where the money wasn't really worth much to begin with because it's value was pegged to the price of gold or other currencies. Or because most of the economy functioned on foreign currency and the government borrowed in foreign currency. In this case printing more money to service foreign debt or imports can quickly spiral out of control because as soon as the trust in the local currency erodes it essentially doesn't matter anymore if you have 100 or 100T of it. It's worthless paper.

Re:Economic costs of war by Retric on Monday August 16, 2021 @08:42PM (#28204771)
Taxes are paid in a nations currency which creates demand for the currency scaled to their economy. Borrowing money is the only way to get spending > taxes without an exponential increase in the amount of money generated every year. That exponential growth then gets worse as the economy tanks and debt explodes. It’s been demonstrated repeatedly, things get out of control extremely quickly.

There is a little wiggle room. Governments do get to create a little money as their economies grow or if it’s used in foreign economies without causing significant inflation, but it’s dangerous to just spend it directly. The issue of course excessive printing or any economic contraction.

PS: Foreign debt is of course a closely related issue, but countries don’t create foreign debt unless they are forced to. You can’t get hyper inflation with a currency actually pegged to another currency or gold, those ties break long before hyper inflation happen.

Re:Economic costs of war by risk000 on Monday August 16, 2021 @09:49PM (#28205194)
There are better and deeper ways of understanding money. You think fiscally sovereign nations need to borrow their own currency, and that isn't correct. You think government spending necessarily precipitates a currency crisis, and this is not only incorrect but goes against the demonstrated history of the United States from the 40s until today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba8XdDqZ-Jg

It seems like you are conflating the role of private and public debt, which is a very common mistake. Private debt does cause economic crises, public debt is a misnomer - it's generally speaking not even correctly referred to as debt. It's referred to as a debt for historical reasons, its not owed to anyone, for example.

A paper by the CATO institute showed that world hyperinflations have not historically arisen from monetary policy changes. They have more to do with... eh, its complicated. Collapses of industry in wartime, famines, militarily-imposed foreign debts and single-resource economies living beyond their means. The understanding you are demonstrating is called the Quantity Theory of Money and its being more and more called into question. The Theory of Ricardian Equivalence is toast. Not sure if you know that those are the high-falutin names of the theories you are describing as being patent fact.

Re:Economic costs of war by Retric on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @06:25AM (#28208249)
> You think fiscally sovereign nations need to borrow in their own currency

No, it can be quite beneficial. However, it’s more dangerous to borrow in foreign currency because exchange rates are outside of complete government control.

> You think government spending necessarily precipitates a currency crisis

No, the inability to borrow in their own currency is one possibility. Bad monetary policy is another, losing a war for existence is another.

Re:Economic costs of war by Grakel on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:28PM (#28204152)
We're never going to pay it, and no we couldn't have gotten universal healthcare. If they had the votes, they would have done both, regardless of cost. They don't have the votes for universal healthcare.
Re:Economic costs of war by Retric on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:31PM (#28204182)
Running out of people willing to lend us money is the ultimate risk. The more we borrow the sooner that happens.
Re:Economic costs of war by mulmen on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:37PM (#28204241)
You mean the more we don’t pay back? Carrying debt generally increases credit rating.
Re:Economic costs of war by Retric on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:41PM (#28204284)
Only up to a point, try borrowing say 50 million dollars while making 50k. Before lending money people look at your existing debt load to determine if your likely to pay it back. The same thing happens to countries, though more smoothly as they first require higher interest rates.
Re:Economic costs of war by risk000 on Monday August 16, 2021 @09:50PM (#28205204)
Governments are not households. Using this metaphor only causes more misunderstandings.
Re:Economic costs of war by Retric on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @06:26AM (#28208257)
Except Greece for example recently hit it’s borrowing limit with spiraling interest rates. If it could have borrowed unlimited money at zero interest nothing bad would have happened, it could have paid debts with new loans.
Re:Economic costs of war by AnimalMuppet on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:16PM (#28204068)
Ignore money. Think in terms of stuff. Metal that gets put into Humvees can't be put into something else. We threw away an insane amount of stuff.

And think in terms of people. People that spend a year as soldiers in Afghanistan can't spend that year doing something else. We threw an insane amount of people-time, and a tragically insane amount of people.

There is an opportunity cost in terms of both stuff and people. We can print money, but we can't print stuff or people.

Re:Economic costs of war by Gravey on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:23PM (#28204119)
> Think in terms of stuff. Metal that gets put into Humvees can't be put into something else. We threw away an insane amount of stuff.

Much of that stuff has actually found itself in the hands of those it was made to fight against. This is significantly worse than throwing it away in my opinion.

Re:Economic costs of war by Grakel on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:30PM (#28204181)
But much of the money went to American businesses and jobs. The stuff itself can easily be replaced.
Re:Economic costs of war by Sharlin on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:55PM (#28223959)
You might want to familiarize yourself with the broken window fallacy.
Re:Economic costs of war by babesh on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:24PM (#28204122)
Re:Economic costs of war by koolba on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:23PM (#28204120)
> People that spend a year as soldiers in Afghanistan can't spend that year doing something else.

The greatest asset the US has built up over the past twenty or so years fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan is a reserve of soldiers with real world military experience. I’m not saying it justifies the cost. Far from it. But it’s not a complete wash from a mid term strategic analysis.

Re:Economic costs of war by cyber_kinetist on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:41PM (#28204275)
Given how the army was incompetent in really doing anything from looking at released documents (https://twitter.com/richardhanania/status/120416649507430400...), I think the experience in Iraq and Afghanistan would have actually deteriorated the quality and morale of the army.
Re:Economic costs of war by kondor6c on Monday August 16, 2021 @09:05PM (#28204923)
Some of those examples are not very stellar examples, I understand that they are just samples but trying to share some of my experiences to help illustrate a better picture. If listening to locals about placing a well or a playground or a zoo, I think you'll quickly get people saying yeah closer to us and not them. You are allocated finite resources to help improve living conditions, sometimes there are compromises. Just noting that transporting fuel by helicopter should not be the gauge regarding incompetence. Many of the bases are very remote, there are different fuel types and/or routes could have been closed and the requirement to get fuel to a location or other emergencies might be a driving factor. But it does sound like something that is pretty inefficient and dangerous.

From my experience and social contacts, I don't think "incompetence" at doing anything is accurate or would I describe it as affecting morale. There are inefficiencies and incompetency with leadership or supply chains, some of this waste is part of running such a large organization like the military. One that sticks in my mind is having 60 people assigned to shake debris out of parachutes when there are only 25 hooks to hang the parachutes on, requiring US mail to be transported by US citizens, and I'm nit picking here: US Air Force intra-Base Security Police enforcing a 15 MPH speed limit...

There have been many lessons that have been learned, from these conflicts and I think a large contributing factor to the cost is rapid procurement of enhanced equipment such as individual and vehicular armor improvements; equipment that had been identified in review's as being a deficiency.

I think a positive attribute around the military is what is being viewed and cited, is lessons and critique. The Army does have strong systems in place for reviewing actions. I think it's something that I try to take a utilize in the civilian sector. I think there is waste, and certainly there could be modifications to improve efficiency, but I also think for a very large organization it does fairly well, and modernized fairly well to the challenges that were presented. However if I were joking around with some friends, I would totally would be tossing around incompetence left and right (haha)!

Re:Economic costs of war by Johnny555 on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:29PM (#28204165)
The greatest asset the US has built up over the past twenty or so years fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan is a reserve of soldiers with real world military experience.

The average term of enlistment in the USA military is 15 years, 11 years for officers. So that experience gets lost quickly unless we keep getting embroiled in new wars.

Re:Economic costs of war by hn8788 on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:37PM (#28204240)
There's no way the average term of enlistment is 15 years. Very few people choose to re-enlist after their first term, or are even allowed to. In 2016, there were almost 200k Marines, and they were struggling to get 10k people to re-enlist after their first 4 years[1].

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2015...

Re:Economic costs of war by Johnny555 on Monday August 16, 2021 @08:56PM (#28204855)
I just used the snippet returned a Google search, which said:

The average length of enlistment for U.S. military personnel is just under 15 years for all branches. The average service time for officers is a bit less, averaging about 11 years. The U.S. Air Force has an average enlistment time of 14.7 years. Oct 4, 2017

The referenced URL is:

https://classroom.synonym.com/beyonce-curls-8729.html

(yes, that "beyonce-curls" URL is the right one)

Surprisingly, it does include references, but only one of them still exists, which backs up the 11 year number for officers, but not for general enlisted:

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2011/10/05/chapter...

The average officer in 2009 had been in the military nearly 11 years, slightly more than a year longer than the average in 1973.

The pattern among enlisted personnel is more complicated. The average length of service for enlisted personnel rose from 5.8 years in 1973 to a peak of 7.5 in 1994 and 1996, but then began drifting downward and now stands at 6.7 years.

Re:Economic costs of war by babesh on Monday August 16, 2021 @08:23PM (#28204643)
https://youtu.be/sUndKrDbgD0

Some military pilots talking about Afghanistan

- drove people out

- airframe lifetimes consumed

- people not wanting to sign up

Re:Economic costs of war by yunohn on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:32PM (#28204197)
You’re saying a 2-decade war murdering 100,000s of civilians, is “a great asset” and “not a wash from strategic analysis”?
Re:Economic costs of war by handrous on Monday August 16, 2021 @08:09PM (#28204540)
> You’re saying a 2-decade war murdering 100,000s of civilians, is “a great asset” and “not a wash from strategic analysis”?

I'm not finding much of what you claim the poster is "saying", in their post.

Re:Economic costs of war by Grakel on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:29PM (#28204162)
Sadly it would be a big problem if we went 20 years without a war, the military would be greatly deteriorated.
Re:Economic costs of war by hn8788 on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:33PM (#28204202)
Nah, it was a wash. Senior military officials have been telling the president what needs to be done in Afghanistan since Bush was president, and they've been ignored by every administration. Afghanistan absolutely could have been "won", but politicians won't think past the start of their next election campaign.
Re:Economic costs of war by Grakel on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:27PM (#28204140)
Absolutely not. Waste fuels the economy. There's no shortage of metal, only the price of metal.

As for people, spending a couple of years in the military is much better personal development for many young people than going to college at an age when most people can't appreciate it.

These things aside, of course the loss of life is horrific and a terrible waste.

Re:Economic costs of war by Apocryphon on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:31PM (#28204188)
1 in 5 veterans of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars are diagnosed with PTSD. And veterans account for 20 percent of U.S. suicides.

https://facethefactsusa.org/facts/the-true-price-of-war-in-h...

Re:Economic costs of war by kortex on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:31PM (#28204191)
On the other hand, college was tough, but didn't kill/maim/disfigure/traumatize me.
Re:Economic costs of war by yunohn on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:34PM (#28204210)
> There's no shortage of metal, only the price of metal

Metal is a non-renewable resource. Cost of extraction does not match market price, more so when unnecessary demand is created for wars. What kind of spin is this?

Re:Economic costs of war by m4rtink on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:52PM (#28204393)
I don't think you can call material sources renewable, well unless we talk wood, leather or whale fat I guess.

But in general metals can be recycled quite well and often are recycled due to their price. Also even if you finely shredded it and mixed it with other stuff the resulting mix would still most likely have higher grade than regular ore & mining it would thus be economicaly viable.

Re:Economic costs of war by yunohn on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @02:19AM (#28206754)
I’m not sure why you imagine that wartime wreckage and artillery is often recycled?
Re:Economic costs of war by Grakel on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:44PM (#28204314)
There's probably more metal in the solar system than the volume of Earth.
Re:Economic costs of war by kortex on Monday August 16, 2021 @08:11PM (#28204556)
Ah yes, technical truth, the best kind of truth.

There could be asteroids of pure palladium, platinum, gold, and silver, and it wouldn't matter a fig until it was cost competitive with digging rocks out of the ground, sticking them on a slow barge to a massive refinery and processing them with cheap, probably exploitative, labor.

Re:Economic costs of war by yunohn on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:50PM (#28204376)
I guess this kind of retort would help you in a pub quiz.
Re:Economic costs of war by Grakel on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:59PM (#28204458)
There's no shortage of metal, that's the point. Open your mind.
Re:Economic costs of war by stevenhuang on Monday August 16, 2021 @08:50PM (#28204821)
There is an effective shortage of resources since the capacity to mine for them is not infinite, and production cannot meet demands.
Re:Economic costs of war by AnimalMuppet on Monday August 16, 2021 @10:57PM (#28205681)
And the metal in space doesn't help us with our current technology. Obviously.

"We can't have a metal shortage because there's lots of metal in space" is not the most coherent argument I've heard today...

Re:Economic costs of war by Grakel on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @08:56AM (#28209324)
What I originally said was there's no metal shortage, only the price of metal. We'll be mining the solar system long before we run out of metal on earth. For aluminum, for instance, there's an insane amount in the Earth's crust.
Re:Economic costs of war by stevenhuang on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @07:59PM (#28216192)
Supply and demand informs price. Not the other way around. That's why your argument makes no sense.
Re:Economic costs of war by guskel on Monday August 16, 2021 @10:11PM (#28205329)
What you're positing here is basically the "Broken Window" fallacy.
Re:Economic costs of war by Sharlin on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:32PM (#28204194)
> Waste fuels the economy.

Yeah, and see what mess that sort of thinking has got us into. Economic growth is worthless if it’s not sustainable.

Re:Economic costs of war by onelastjob on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:26PM (#28204137)
You can only print so much money though before the dollar becomes worthless, so there is an opportunity cost since you can't print infinite dollars
Re:Economic costs of war by dlp211 on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:37PM (#28204237)
Except we don't just print money and give it away. The money is borrowed (backed by some asset), and this distinction matters. IOW, the money that gets printed is (generally) non-inflationary.

Stop using what you learned in your Econ 1XX level courses to try and reason about government spending and money operations, especially, US government spending and money operations. What you learned is not applicable.

Re:Economic costs of war by onelastjob on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:47PM (#28204341)
Seems like inflation is skyrocketing to me. Specifically asset inflation. Housing prices, stocks, bitcoin, etc. Basically dollar becoming worth less against these assets thanks to QE.
Re:Economic costs of war by valzam on Monday August 16, 2021 @08:02PM (#28204473)
House prices are a real issue, although I don't think that's only because of increased money supply.

Otherwise, does it matter? What's the impact on ordinary people if bitcoin is worth 100 or 1 mio dollars? Notwithstanding the fact that the number of people actively buying financial assets has gone up a lot in recent years, which is bound to increase prices.

Re:Economic costs of war by sneak on Monday August 16, 2021 @08:04PM (#28204499)
Dollars being worth less is obviously true. The well-defined link to this being a result of QE is less clear.

I keep hearing that it's supply shortages due to covid and wage increases due to unemployment aid.

Who knows if that is true, either.

Re:Economic costs of war by dlp211 on Monday August 16, 2021 @08:49PM (#28204817)
There is no such thing as asset inflation. If the price of assets is going up, then they are going up. It sucks that housing is considered an asset (it shouldn't, it should be a consumable) but that is the long and short of it. And you can't have an average 2% inflation target and underperform that target for a decade+, then complain when there is inflation above 2%(which is transitory and caused by simultaneous demand and supply shocks due to covid).
Re:Economic costs of war by Geee on Monday August 16, 2021 @09:08PM (#28204942)
Government debt isn't guaranteed by anything, expect by the promise that it'll be paid back (although it won't be). Commercial banks can also borrow money that is guaranteed by government instead of being backed by any asset. Expanding the money supply always causes money to lose value.
Re:Economic costs of war by yunohn on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:37PM (#28204232)
> there's no evidence that Congress would have spent that money on something else

“Reality is unchangeable, so we can’t know the unknown”

So what? It definitely could’ve been spent better than decade’s killing hundreds of thousands of civilians.

Re:Economic costs of war by Grakel on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:42PM (#28204294)
You don't get it. It couldn't have been spent on something else. If the day before 9/11 Congress had passed universal healthcare, free college, and basic income, they still would have spent this money on a war. Are you saying they could have said, oh we got attacked, let's estimate the cost of a war and put it into healthcare?
Re:Economic costs of war by yunohn on Monday August 16, 2021 @07:45PM (#28204321)
No, I’m saying the USA didn’t need to make it a multi-decade war, killing civilians while they were at it.