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Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @03:47PM (#28133339)
> I'm not aware of any food that would be considered "ultra-processed" yet known to be good for people

What does "ultra processed" mean? Cheese, bread, olive oil and most vegetables require processing to be made or nutritionally useful. Freeze-dried vegetables are quite processed and quite good for you.

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by artimaeis on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:02PM (#28133565)
Ultra processed is defined by the FAO (The UN Food and Agriculture Organization) thusly:

> Formulations of ingredients, mostly of exclusive industrial use, made by a series of industrial processes, many requiring sophisticated equipment and technology (hence ‘ultra-processed’). Processes used to make ultra-processed foods include the fractioning of whole foods into substances, chemical modifications of these substances, assembly of unmodified and modified food substances using industrial techniques such as extrusion, moulding and pre-frying; use of additives at various stages of manufacture whose functions include making the final product palatable or hyper-palatable; and sophisticated packaging, usually with plastic and other synthetic materials.

Source: http://www.fao.org/3/ca5644en/ca5644en.pdf

I believe this is the widest standard used to define "ultra-processed", though there are more sentences and paragraphs in that doc explaining the definition more thoroughly.

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by Ajedi32 on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:23PM (#28133900)
That's pretty broad. Some of those things might be harmful, some might not be. I doubt extruding dough, cooking ("chemically modifying") it and wrapping it in plastic makes it any worse for you, for example. Whereas on the other side of the spectrum, there may indeed be food additives or chemical treatment process that _do_ make things worse.

Maybe it's not helpful to paint things with such a broad brush, and we should instead focus on specific substances or practices which might be causing problems?

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by eurasiantiger on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @07:35PM (#28136152)
Cooking can form many very bad things, e.g. neurotoxic heterocyclic amines.

Plastics commonly leach hormone disruptors to food.

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by legerdemain on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:18PM (#28134723)
So, almost all cow milk sold in supermarkets is ultra-processed by this definition: centrifuged, reconstituted in measured ratios of liquids and solids, and pasteurized. Likewise, non-dairy milk like soy milk, which additionally has gelling agents added to control mouthfeel.

That's a heck of a broad definition!

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by eurasiantiger on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @07:36PM (#28136162)
Yes. Coincidently, most modern cow milk is not really good for you.
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by legerdemain on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @09:13PM (#28136779)
That's right, paleo cows produced keto-friendly milk back in the stone age.
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by eurasiantiger on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @01:42AM (#28138449)
Ha ha, I maek funny coment.

You know cows didn’t change, we just started separating the milk and reconstructing milk-like products. The classic Simpsons ”Malk” gag is not far off.

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by ac29 on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @06:53PM (#28135794)
> soy milk, which additionally has gelling agents added to control mouthfeel

I'm sure all brands differ, but the box in my fridge says "Ingredients: Water, Organic Soybeans".

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by voakbasda on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:31AM (#28142454)
AFAIK, if the amount of an ingredient is small enough, it does not need to be listed on the packaging. The label is not authoritatively inclusive. Food for thought.
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by Arrath on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @01:42PM (#28145150)
Example, Tic Tac mints are essentially entirely sugar yet fall under that threshold so the nutritional information reads '0g' of sugar per serving.
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by foolfoolz on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @11:09AM (#28142936)
yes. very similar to how “organic” constitutes a range of acceptable values and does not mean all ingredients are organic (and organic itself does not mean zero pesticides/chemicals)
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by SpicyLemonZest on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:29PM (#28133999)
As this document acknowledges, though, quite a few normal foods fall under their definition of "ultra-processed". Pasta sauce, sausages, ice cream, even bagged bread are all included.
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:10PM (#28133686)
Thanks! It seems like a two- or three-prong test: (1) cannot be made at home using commonly-available tools and ingredients, (2) uses "industrial techniques" and "additives" and (3) is packaged.

The second prong seems ambiguous to the point of uselessness. "Industrial techniques" are covered by (1); "additives" seemingly impossible to define within this context.

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by jfengel on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:26PM (#28133946)
They also have a definition of "additive"

(a) food additive means any substance not normally consumed as a food by itself and not normally used as a typical ingredient of the food, whether or not it has nutritive value, the intentional addition of which to food for a technological (including organoleptic) purpose in the manufacture, processing, preparation, treatment, packing, packaging, transport or holding of such food results, or may be reasonably expected to result, (directly or indirectly) in it or its by-products becoming a component of or otherwise affecting the characteristics of such foods. The term does not include contaminants, or substances added to food for maintaining or improving nutritional qualities, or sodium chloride;

http://www.fao.org/3/Y2770E/y2770e03.htm

The FAO has a standards body that will give you tons of detail to back up their papers.

http://www.fao.org/fao-who-codexalimentarius/en/

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:50PM (#28134329)
That would still seem to cover the coagulants necessary to make tofu, the rennet used to make Gruyère or Parmigiano, or nitrates and nitrites for cured meats. I suppose "nor normally used as a typical ingredient" could be the turning point, but that does seem to acknowledge the question's complexity by, effectively, grandfathering in traditional additives.
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by pixl97 on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @03:54PM (#28133457)
For me it is the grinding and removal of fiber.

This is a very important distinction as it changes the glycemic index and will cause blood sugars to rise much faster on consumption than an unground food with its entire fiber content.

The fiber commonly becomes animal feed.

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by endisneigh on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @03:57PM (#28133490)
One definition of processed would be the amount of "steps" required to take from the base ingredient.

So if you make falafel for example, it's only two steps removed from chickpeas, as it's just mildly grinded and fried. That being said it's an exercise to the reader in determining if each "step" is equally bad. In general steps involving the destruction or heating of the food are worse than the "separation" (e.g. peeling or cutting vs frying or blending).

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by Symbiote on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @03:57PM (#28133487)
In my opinion, ultra-processing requiring equipment, procedures or chemicals found only in a laboratory or factory, not a typical home kitchen from the past century or so.

That's overly simple though, the definition is here: https://world.openfoodfacts.org/nova (this seems to be a summary of the definition in FAO document linked above).

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by panzagl on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:26PM (#28133942)
The guy who invented Fritos made them at home- does that mean they're not ultra-processed?
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by dehrmann on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @01:14AM (#28138267)
Potato chips are another example. They can be made at home from ingredients that could otherwise be considered healthy. It's just that when you combine them in the right proportions, it can be hard to control how much you eat.

The other misnomer is labeling chips as "not nutritious." They're loaded in macronutrients. They often don't have many micro nutrients, but most people aren't actually short on those.

The main problem with some of these foods is they're calorically dense, but not filling.

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by LargoLasskhyfv on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @01:47AM (#28138483)
And Kellogs now owns Pringles.
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by slumdev on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:27PM (#28133953)
And yet:

- Cold-pressed, extra virgin olive oil is considered to be the healthiest due to its fat and polyphenol content.

- Traditional cheeses are more nutritious than Kraft singles.

- Whole grain is more nutritious than Wonderbread.

- Freezing, cooking, and the passage of time all destroy vitamins and other micronutrients.

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by dataflow on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @03:54PM (#28133450)
> What does "ultra processed" mean? Cheese, bread, olive oil and most vegetables require processing to be made or nutritionally useful.

I don't have a scientific definition for you. Just use your common sense to figure out what average people would intuitively call ultra-processed, whatever it means to them. I'm pretty darn sure you would not arrive at the conclusion that ordinary people consider bread and most vegetables "ultra-processed foods".

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by itake on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:01PM (#28133546)
Why is bread not considered ultra-processed?

I am trying to use my common sense here. To create it, you must apply mechanical processing to grind wheat. Chemical processing for the yeast to reacting to the sugars. thermal processing to cook the bread. There is evaporation of the liquid in the bread.

This seems like a lot of processes required to create this.

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by synquid on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:22PM (#28133884)
They're processed foods, but not ultra-processed. Generally that means advanced factory processes and chemicals that are only used in industrial settings. Factory made bread is likely to be ultra-processed, however.
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by itake on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:36PM (#28134094)
Can you provide an example of a factory process that is only performed in a factory (and not in the kitchen + grocery store, e.g. flour is preprocessed wheat)? bonus points if this process applies to bread making.
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by fanf2 on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:45PM (#28134231)
Compare the Chorleywood process to the way you would make bread at home https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by CarelessExpert on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:32PM (#28134904)
If I'm reading this right, literally the only difference between this process and the one used in a home kitchen is "intense mechanical working by high-speed mixers, not feasible in a small-scale kitchen".

Otherwise the raw materials are the same:

> Flour, water, yeast, salt, fat, and, where used, minor ingredients common to many bread-making techniques such as Vitamin C, emulsifiers and enzymes are mechanically mixed for about three minutes.

In what way does this represent "processed" food in any material sense?

If anything, this sounds like a perfect example of the kind of fear mongering associated with the "processed food" label...

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by vb6sp6 on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @06:40PM (#28135653)
> Otherwise the raw materials are the same

Edit: I misread, sorry

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by CarelessExpert on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @07:10PM (#28135970)
> one uses dissolved co2 and low protein wheat and the other high protein wheat. One also goes through a fermentation process while the other does not. Salt content also varies

You've misread the Wikipedia page.

What you're describing is Dauglish's process that preceded CBP. Here's the key bit from the introduction:

> In 1862 a radically new and much cheaper industrial-scale process was developed by John Dauglish, using water with dissolved carbon dioxide instead of yeast, with no need for an eight-hour fermentation. Dauglish's method, used by the Aerated Bread Company that he set up, dominated commercial bread baking for a century until the Chorleywood process was developed.

Notice that last part of the sentence.

CBP, as described in the Wikipedia article, "is achieved through the addition of Vitamin C, fat, yeast, and intense mechanical working by high-speed mixers".

In particular, no CO2 is used with CBP. Bread is proofed by "[placing the dough] in a baking tin and [moving it] to the humidity- and temperature-controlled proofing chamber, where it sits for about 45–50 minutes", with the process aided through the use of dough conditioners like ascorbic acid.

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by vb6sp6 on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @08:10PM (#28136396)
My bad, thanks for the info
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by sorokod on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:07PM (#28134557)
Not bread but... instant coffee, refined sugar.
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by legerdemain on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:24PM (#28134794)
Instant coffee is simply coffee that is freeze-dried. That is the only step added above and beyond normal coffee-brewing. It is likely one of the least processed foods one can buy.
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by sorokod on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @11:55AM (#28143621)
Ok instant granulated coffee.
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by chithanh on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:20PM (#28133858)
> Why is bread not considered ulta-processed?

Even traditional bread is certainly highly processed, undergoing mechanical (milling), biochemical (fermentation), and thermal (baking) processing. It doesn't quite meet the definition of ultra-processed though as all these technologies are readily available to unsophisticated producers.

I think ultra-processed is some sort of proxy for hyperpalatable here.

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by judge2020 on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:26PM (#28133936)
Indeed, there's a definition but this just adds the the starting comment's point that "ultra-processed" barely means anything in relation to how healthy something is to eat (and at what quantities).
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by legerdemain on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:22PM (#28134766)
Wouldn't most supermarket bread flour by itself meet the definition of ultra-processed, because it is bleached and enriched with micronutrients in a way that almost no consumer can do in the kitchen?
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by CarelessExpert on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @05:37PM (#28134968)
> because it is bleached and enriched with micronutrients in a way that almost no consumer can do in the kitchen?

What gave you that idea?

Bleached flour and various additives (such as ascorbic acid) are routinely used in home kitchens:

https://thebreadguide.com/using-ascorbic-acid-when-baking/

What, exactly, do you think goes into making a loaf of mass-produced bread?

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by legerdemain on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @09:12PM (#28136770)
The bleaching is what makes the flour, and by extension the bread made from it, ultra-processed, even if the bread is baked in a home setting. You misread.
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by CarelessExpert on Thursday August 12, 2021 @01:58PM (#28159393)
Yes, I 100% did misread! My bad!
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by fancifalmanima on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:16PM (#28133785)
if you buy (from a bakery, probably not from the grocery store) or make bread made from minimally processed to processed flour, water, salt and yeast it would probably be considered minimally processed or processed. When I make homemade bread, those are literally all the ingredients. It has a very different texture, chewiness, and taste from something storebought. They're basically different things. And it doesn't last more than a day or two after cutting it open.

If you buy bread made from bleached white flour, sugar (in pretty much any white bread you buy from the supermarket), bread conditioners, preservatives, etc, it's probably considered ultraprocessed. It can also sit in your pantry for weeks.

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by artimaeis on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:06PM (#28133630)
Bread could be classified as either processed or ultra-processed depending on ingredients and manufacturing techniques.

Ultra-processed bread would probably be made to have a longer shelf life and likely have more additives and preservatives.

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by slothtrop on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:19PM (#28133843)
Bread can be ultra-processed. It can also be made with ground wheat grains that don't remove the germ or get bleached.
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by the__alchemist on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:03PM (#28133591)
> Just use your common sense to figure out what average people would intuitively call ultra-processed

How do I do that? Are we averaging the opinions of other people, or taking the opinion of the average person? By what metric?

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by willismichael on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:06PM (#28133634)
> I'm pretty darn sure you would not arrive at the conclusion that ordinary people consider bread and most vegetables "ultra-processed foods".

That depends on what you mean by bread. The sourdough loaf that I make out of flour straight from the grinder is a far cry from cheap white bread.

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by elil17 on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:06PM (#28133635)
Well according to the UN document linked in the article a loaf of bread is ultra-processed
Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by dataflow on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:42PM (#28134202)
"Another example of how broadening the initial definition of a highly or ultra-processed food may create confusion is the use of terms that, in themselves, are not precisely defined. For bread, initially defined as such in the NOVA food classification, examples might be the use of terms such as sliced, mass-produced, or sweetened. Their exact interpretation is not self-evident. [...]" [1]

Again, there's no unambiguous definition here. The UN has drawn one line out of many potentially valid ones. My point here isn't to argue word semantics. I'm just saying look at what the average person would consider "ultra-processed", whatever their definition (or lack thereof) might be.

P.S. I'm not even sure what you consider "ultra-processed bread" is good for people in any case.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6389637/

Re:U.S. Kids Are Getting Nearly 70% of Their Calories from '... by elil17 on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @11:21AM (#28143072)
I mean the whole wheat bread I eat everyday is sliced, mass produced, and sweetened a little bit (as are almost all whole wheat breads, regardless of whether they’re mass produced) - I’m pretty sure it’s as good for me as any other whole grain.