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Re:Airyx OS by PaulDavisThe1st on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:41PM (#28069612)
> source compatibility with macOS applications (i.e. you could compile a Mac application on Airyx and run it)

Hard to see how this can be done legally. The libraries (sorry, Frameworks) that make up the user-space runtime for macOS are all proprietary. There's no replacement for the most important parts of it.

Re:Airyx OS by 3np on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:43AM (#28070267)
This is addressed in the README I linked to. Reimplementation of APIs is not legally sketchy. See Oracle vs Google.

https://www.eff.org/cases/oracle-v-google

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_LLC_v._Oracle_America,_....

Re:Airyx OS by PaulDavisThe1st on Thursday August 05, 2021 @09:58AM (#28073809)
To clarify, I didn't mean to imply that reimplementation would be a legal issue.

I meant to imply that unlike the case with Windows/Wine, there is no reimplementation of the overwhelming majority of macOS APIs. So if you wanted to do this now, you could only do it by copying frameworks directly from macOS (which some people are doing for various reasons), and that does have some potential legal issues.

Theoretically, a reimplementation is possible. It doesn't exist, it's a huge project (far, far bigger than GNUstep), and as someone notes down-thread, it's also a moving target. There are also uncounted numbers of bugs in the current implementation of Apple's APIs, and for many things to work correctly you'd need to implement the bugs too since developers have designed around them.

Yes, Wine exists. But Wine started in 1993. The idea that a bit of hard work by some good developers is going to provide a reimplementation of the macOS frameworks in a year or three strikes me as without any foundation in reality.

Re:Airyx OS by potatolicious on Thursday August 05, 2021 @11:42AM (#28075292)
Yeah oddly enough that seems like the diciest part of the project to me. The Cocoa API is vast, reimplementing it isn't necessarily rocket science but would require a pretty huge amount of labor.

And you're right - the Cocoa API continues to evolve, so if the goal is "source compatible with latest and greatest macOS APIs" it's hard to see how a small group of open source devs can out-run the sum totality of every API engineer at Apple.

I have similar feelings about cross-platform tools like Flutter as well - the idea in a vacuum is reasonably sound, but then you run into the basic scale problems of maintaining compatibility with a moving target - a moving target that has >10x more staffing than you do.

Re:Airyx OS by mkl on Thursday August 05, 2021 @07:46AM (#28072369)
Working second link: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_LLC_v._Oracle_America,_...> (it has a "." at the end)

That decision only applies in the USA. I think it will be undetermined in many jurisdictions.

Re:Airyx OS by protomyth on Thursday August 05, 2021 @08:46AM (#28072916)
If it is, then expect everyone selling PCs to get a nicely worded letter from IBM about their BIOS. Any jurisdiction that rules differently will imperil their whole software industry.
Re:Airyx OS by mkl on Thursday August 05, 2021 @09:15AM (#28073291)
(Edited for clarity)

IBM hasn't been doing that for decades, despite the supreme court decision being quite recent - I think that was more about clean room reimplementation than APIs.

My point wasn't about ruling differently but the lack of rulings/laws making it explicitly legal creating uncertainty and opportunities for Oracle/Apple to go after people. Some countries have other ways to deal with it too, e.g. NZ allows reverse engineering for compatibility purposes, which seems likely to cover APIs (not sure, haven't needed to know).

Re:Airyx OS by pjmlp on Friday August 06, 2021 @02:36AM (#28083981)
IBM already tried that in the 80's and lost, due to the way Compaq did it, that is why you have PC compatibles.
Re:Airyx OS by protomyth on Saturday August 07, 2021 @10:38AM (#28098896)
Yes, but Oracle's lawsuit was trying to rewrite the book so copying API was copyright infringement regardless of the clean room used.
Re:Airyx OS by pjmlp on Saturday August 07, 2021 @02:57PM (#28100948)
Nope, and it was a pity that they lost.
Re:Airyx OS by protomyth on Saturday August 07, 2021 @06:22PM (#28102424)
Ok, why was it a pity Oracle lost?
Re:Airyx OS by pjmlp on Sunday August 08, 2021 @02:18AM (#28104611)
Android Java is Google's own flavour of J++ and needs to be slammed by the same exemplary way.
Re:Airyx OS by spijdar on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:58PM (#28069715)
Sure there are (for some definition of "most important parts). Take a look at GNUstep for a start. Some MacOS frameworks like WebKit are also open sourced from Apple itself.

As an example of how this works in practice, the disassembler/decompiler Hopper has both MacOS and Linux versions that are compiled from the same code.

Now, how successful they'll be extending the open source frameworks to made this useful in compiling non-trivial software that wasn't written with "dual compatibility" is a fair question, but the starting pieces are there, and patching the compilers and creating a copy of MacOS's filesystem layout would go a long way in making it easier to compile MacOS software on FreeBSD/GNUstep.

And in any event, so far as doing it legally, I don't see why this would be any less legal than Wine's recreation of the Win32 API/libraries. Only difference is Apple might be more litigious than Microsoft, but Microsoft doesn't exactly lie down to software theft...

Re:Airyx OS by wott on Thursday August 05, 2021 @07:38AM (#28072315)
> Sure there are (for some definition of "most important parts). Take a look at GNUstep for a start.

I was following and trying to use GNUstep 15 years ago, and they were constantly chasing a moving target and were not managing to catch up. (Plus naturally the reimplementation bugs, plus the differences in interpretation of the "spec" which forced the programmer to be very careful and not take shortcuts.)

That's the huge issue when you are trying to reproduce an API which is not under your control by any mean, and is still alive and changing.

Re:Airyx OS by soperj on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:36AM (#28070231)
>Some MacOS frameworks like WebKit are also open sourced from Apple itself.

It had to be, it was forked from KHtml, which was GPL.

Re:Airyx OS by mkl on Thursday August 05, 2021 @07:44AM (#28072361)
KHTML is LGPL, as is much of WebKit. If it was GPL, Safari would have to be too, instead of proprietary.
Re:Airyx OS by PaulDavisThe1st on Thursday August 05, 2021 @09:53AM (#28073751)
GNUStep is not current with the frameworks that it corresponds to on macOS (and was never complete).

Those frameworks are also a tiny part of the full set that you need to build non-trivial software on macOS.

Audio? Video? so much more stuff that nobody has ever tried to reimplement the APIs for.

Yes, such a reimplementation would be legal,but Wine has been a project for 20+ years and has a huge headstart compared to any idea of doing this for macOS.

Re:Airyx OS by anthk on Friday August 06, 2021 @09:46AM (#28087090)
GNUStep now it's implementing CoreVideo and CoreAudio.
Re:Airyx OS by jhawk28 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:58PM (#28069711)
You would need to reverse engineer what the frameworks are supposed to do and provide new implementations. (You can see all their external APIs) This is what Google did with Java on Android. The courts currently view this as legal (Google v Oracle).
Re:Airyx OS by cable2600 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @12:10AM (#28069779)
The core of MacOS is Darwin which is open source. Based on the MACH/XNU kernel and *BSD. So any MacOS clone would start with using Darwin code.
Re:Airyx OS by saagarjha on Thursday August 05, 2021 @12:36AM (#28069916)
Emulating macOS at the Darwin layer is not necessary and often not advisable (see: GNUstep).
Re:Airyx OS by PaulDavisThe1st on Thursday August 05, 2021 @09:50AM (#28073709)
The goal was "source code compatibility with macOS applications".
Re:Airyx OS by saagarjha on Thursday August 05, 2021 @10:04AM (#28073874)
Most Mac apps never call into the Darwin layer directly.
Re:Airyx OS by PaulDavisThe1st on Thursday August 05, 2021 @11:05AM (#28074745)
Lots of macOS applications need to drop to a few Darwin related features from time to time, if only to work around bugs in the frameworks. In addition, lots of applications run on macOS that use POSIX APIs, which are (typically) implemented in Darwin and not in the user-space frameworks.

But yet, I misunderstood the GP comment, and what I said was not really appropriate in that context.

Re:Airyx OS by bobsomers on Thursday August 05, 2021 @12:29AM (#28069880)
> Hard to see how this can be done legally.

Why? Things like Wine and Proton exist and Windows is proprietary.

Re:Airyx OS by Jiocus on Thursday August 05, 2021 @06:59AM (#28072055)
Even ReactOS, an open-source implementation of Windows exists.
Re:Airyx OS by PaulDavisThe1st on Thursday August 05, 2021 @09:51AM (#28073725)
How many years has the Wine project been running?

There is absolutely no equivalent for macOS frameworks. GNUStep is a tiny part of the picture, and in addition has not kept up with the fairly radical changes that Apple has introduced to the frameworks that GNUStep does correspond to.

Re:Airyx OS by yjftsjthsd-h on Thursday August 05, 2021 @10:22AM (#28074113)
That's a practical question, not related to the legal question.
Re:Airyx OS by PaulDavisThe1st on Thursday August 05, 2021 @11:03AM (#28074707)
The legal question I was referring was related to my perception that the goal was "source code compatibility for macOS applications" now, not after some essentially unbounded engineering task.

That may have been incorrect.

Re:Airyx OS by orionblastar on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:51PM (#28069665)
Darwin can run limited MacOS applications provided they don't use a proprietary Apple MacOS library. Airyx is so limited and doesn't have a lot of users to be worth suing over I think.
Re:Airyx OS by Bilal_io on Thursday August 05, 2021 @12:20AM (#28069827)
Probably cheaper and easier for apple to kill them while small/young
Re:Airyx OS by michaelmrose on Thursday August 05, 2021 @11:07AM (#28074781)
They haven't done anything illegal or immoral. Giant company tries to use nonsense lawsuits to illegally destroy competition doesn't make for great PR.
Re:Airyx OS by nobleach on Thursday August 05, 2021 @02:36PM (#28077722)
Yeah, if they took the path of ARDI's Executor from the 90's, it IS possible to have a completely clean-room emulation (of Apple) without violating any intellectual property.
Re:Airyx OS by nine_k on Thursday August 05, 2021 @05:56AM (#28071659)
They are no threat to Apple; Apple's business is selling hardware, with software bundled to it.

This is no more menace to them than ReactOS for Microsoft.

Re:Airyx OS by michaelmrose on Thursday August 05, 2021 @12:51PM (#28076285)
A natural pivot if the software was successful would be to start selling the hardware with the software putting them in direct competition. After all people generally don't buy OS they buy computers.
Re:Airyx OS by nine_k on Friday August 06, 2021 @05:26AM (#28084925)
Exactly. Do people sell computers with ReactOS?

OTOH Wine, properly improved and adjusted, sort of made a dent in the market in the form of Steam game consoles.