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Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by hristov on Saturday July 31, 2021 @01:15PM (#28019939)
The lead-crime hypothesis is almost certainly true but the mass media reaction to it just shows how much is wrong with our society.

First of all, the lead-crime hypothesis is good news. It is great to realize that small entirely achievable environmental changes can cause such marked improvement in wellbeing in people's lives.

But for some reason it has not been accepted as good news by the mass media. And then you have papers like the one discussed by the article that try to debunk the theory on absolutely ridiculous grounds. (You see there are no studies disproving this theory therefore there must be studies disproving this theory, therefore this theory is wrong. What a bunch of BS!)

So why is the lead crime hypothesis treated so negatively by our elites? Perhaps to avoid another round of massive litigation. Perhaps to prevent people from finding other ways other pollution can affect people's behavior and thus prevent the banning of other substances and other rounds of massive litigation. Or perhaps to preserve an image key in international culture -- the violent city youth.

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by Barrin92 on Saturday July 31, 2021 @06:05PM (#28021930)
>So why is the lead crime hypothesis treated so negatively by our elites?

It's not just treated negatively by elites, but I think that's very straightforward. Because a biological or chemical explanation for behaviour, especially such a simple one, throws a pretty big wrench into the moralistic and individualistic worldview that underpins our Western societies, in particular in regards to crime or intellect.

If you accept the, from a scientific point, very obvious observation that a bunch of chemicals in your drinking water can turn you into an idiot or a criminal you just about undermine most stories of self-earned merit or responsibility we are being fed in our mother's milk and that justify bringing the hammer down on said inner city youth.

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by newbamboo on Sunday August 01, 2021 @10:32AM (#28026494)
Yes. Everybody wants to believe in strong free will. Everybody. If you accept that one group isn’t entirely culpable for their actions than other groups will get the same treatment (kkk, date rapists, capitol protestors, etc…) Until we can accept that all humans are mostly products of genetics and environment, the push for legal reform will come down to political questions about which sorts of people we affiliate with the most.
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by jhgb on Saturday July 31, 2021 @09:11PM (#28022871)
I guess alcohol is a non-issue, then? Or are you restricting yourself only to some chemicals?
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by Barrin92 on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:03AM (#28024159)
Alcohol is absolutely an issue, all drug use is. I don't limit myself to 'some' chemicals. But I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, are you asking if I think drug use ought to be treated the same way, as an environmental and behavioral issue, rather than some individualistic moral guilt thing? Yes, absolutely.

It's a good example actually. We've done incredible damage by moralizing drug use rather than treating it as medical issue and instead promote quackery like AA which has horrible outcomes.

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by jhgb on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:40PM (#28027606)
What I meant was, do the same people who have that "moralistic and individualistic worldview" and reject lead as a possible cause of things believe (or rather disbelieve?) the same things about alcohol?
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by cool_dude85 on Saturday July 31, 2021 @11:03PM (#28023466)
I'm sure we've all seen alcohol or illicit drug use used to further the morality tales we tell ourselves.

Lead is a lot harder to do it with because it was in water or paint.

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by Gibbon1 on Saturday July 31, 2021 @11:12PM (#28023501)
If you want a morality tale it's the worst because it means a the perps were originally helpless victims themselves.

The worse thing I think comes from some really old chemistry books from the early 1900's I inherited. The thing from those books is educated people back when they started putting lead in paint and gasoline absolutely knew lead caused developmental brain damage.

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by mabbo on Saturday July 31, 2021 @04:28PM (#28021297)
I think you're ignoring the point the article is trying to make because the lead-crime hypothesis is one that is likeable- it's a simple cause-and-effect that we can (and did) remedy.

The point they are making is that selection bias in which studies get published and which get suppressed can fool us (and may have done so) into believing an effect is real that isn't, or into thinking an effect is much larger than it is. Forget about which study this is and look at the point they are making on its own. Is there bad science going on here?

> but the mass media reaction to it just shows how much is wrong with our society

There is a whole other branch of mass media that desperately wants the lead-crime hypothesis to be not just true but the only reason for the crime rate falling in the 90s. Why? because it's much preferred over the alternative answer: Roe vs Wade. That side of the mass media is very aggressive in defending the lead-crime hypothesis.

Good discussion on the subject here: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/abortion/

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by scotty79 on Saturday July 31, 2021 @07:27PM (#28022327)
I think leaded gasoline influence on crime rates was observed in countries where abortion was illegal until different date and influence was as strong as in the US.
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by vintermann on Sunday August 01, 2021 @03:36AM (#28024528)
Yes. Information from other countries with different dates of phasing out lead would be (and is) strong evidence for the lead crime hypothesis, and evidence against the racier abortion hypothesis that the Freakonomics guys also promoted. This meta-analysis just gives up on cross-borders comparisons entirely.

And they suspiciously focused on murder only, they may have peeked at the data before deciding.

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by bjourne on Sunday August 01, 2021 @03:48AM (#28024583)
One of the many problems with the abortion-crime hypothesis is that it is US-specific. For example, in Romania the government banned abortion in 1966 and instituted harsh punishments for illegal abortions. Yet no one has shown that this correlated with a crime wave in the late 1980s as one would expect if free abortions really decreases crime.
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by pas on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @12:33PM (#28051179)
There are other variables too. Soviet dictatorships were pretty safe, because they were totalitarian surveillance "fake it till you make it" "smile and nobody gets hurt" dystopias.

Theoretically the connection is sound (so I think it warrants a pretty solid prior probability), after all unwanted children lead to decrease in socioeconomic status, which is a very surefire way to have a lot of problems in life, and without a supportive family and state, the number of options quickly dwindles to illegal and not so great ones. (Basically the "not so great" option is that in the Soviet dictatorships around here - Eastern Europe - at least the full employment mandate meant that there was enough make believe work available to not starve. )

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by gus_massa on Saturday July 31, 2021 @03:46PM (#28021034)
> You see there are no studies disproving this theory therefore there must be studies disproving this theory, therefore this theory is wrong.

That is an oversimplification, and I think it's in the original article. Let me try to give an alternative explanation.

In an ideal world where all the studies have the same amount of subjects and all the countries have the same conditions, when you make an histogram of the result of the test you expect to see a Gaussian distribution. Some graphics in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution

If half of the studies have 100 participants and the other half have 10000 participants, you expect to see the sum of two Gaussian distributions with the same center, it looks like a low wide mountain with a bump in the center. In a more realistic universe, each study has a different number of participants, and you get something in between. A rounded symmetrical bump.

Also, in a magical world where there are two type of countries, you will see the sum of two bumps with different centers. If they were far enough, you would see two humps. If they were too close, you will see only one hump but wider than the expected only form noise. And in between you can get weird shapes.

In a realistic word where each country is unique, and they are not so different, you get a bump. With enough variations, some luck, and crossing your fingers, you expect to see a bump that is similar to a Gaussian. It's not exactly a Gaussian, but somewhat close enough. More technical details in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_limit_theorem

So if you have a very big number of studies, you expect to see in the histogram something like a Gaussian. In the first graph, instead of the histogram, the article uses another representation. In an ideal word, you expect to see an inverted ʃ. See again https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution

In a real word you expect to see something somewhat similar to an inverted ʃ. But the graphic shows only a L, Where is the top horizontal part of the inverted ʃ???

It's a very difficult question, and it's difficult to understand without a deep analysis. (That I can't do.) Perhaps there are good reasons, but it's strange.

In particular, the vertical part of the inverted ʃ in the graphic is close to 0, too close to 0. You can see that the lower tic of the inverted ʃ goes quite a bit to the right, so the "missing" upper tic should go approximately the same distance to the left. (Or there must be an explanation. Not all distributions are symmetrical, but it's strange that it's so asymmetrical.)

Now, the "missing" experiments in the "missing" upper tic of the inverted ʃ are the ones that say that the hypothesis is wrong (or even that lead is good for you). So it would be nice to have an explanation of thee weird distribution or the disappearance of these experiments.

Oversimplifying, there are no studies disproving this theory, but from the distribution there should be studies disproving this theory, therefore there is something weird happening here.

(Note: Sometimes the vertical part of the inverted ʃ is so far away from 0 that you don't expect any result in the negative part. Just the two tics at the top and at the bottom of the inverted ʃ, both in the positive part.)

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by ComputerGuru on Saturday July 31, 2021 @08:07PM (#28022543)
That’s all well and good but it assumes studies get published independent of their results, even if they fly in the face of established fact. In reality, hundreds of thousands of studies are conducted, the author realizes they screwed up immensely and will be laughed out of the room if they publish saying they found, say, seeing a zebra once in your life is enough to account for dying twenty years younger on average, or that lead exposure is actually good for you, and won’t publish the study. This’ll even happen mid-study once discouraging results are found. That self-censorship/sanity checking is probably more than enough to account for the statistical “anomaly” you are observing, no?
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by bjourne on Sunday August 01, 2021 @03:09AM (#28024406)
The blog post author discusses that point and dismisses it. The lead-crime hypothesis is big in the world of Criminology and a statistical study finding no correlation between lead and crime most certainly would get published. For certain, there is a publication bias against negative results but it is not at all clear why it would apply in this case. Furthermore, statistical studies can take many man-years to conduct so why would the study authors throw away all that work rather than attempting to publish a negative result?
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by gus_massa on Sunday August 01, 2021 @07:28AM (#28025513)
There is also the "faster than light neutrinos effect". It the result was true, the authors would get a Nobel price. If it was false, the authors would look like morons. So they decided to publish the FTL-neutrinos result informally, and as asking help, and with a lot of caveats. If it was true, they'd get their Nobel anyway. If false, they were just asking for help debugging a strange unexpected result.

In less interesting problems, the authors may decide to just not publish it.

In political areas, it's a risk that the far-right or far-left decides to support your preprint and later when you find the error claim that Big Something paid you to suppress the true. And the other side to claim that you are a far-other-side supporter.

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by gus_massa on Saturday July 31, 2021 @11:34PM (#28023592)
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by jonnycomputer on Saturday July 31, 2021 @03:52PM (#28021075)
I came to say something similar. I understand the impulse to complain that it is an argument from absence of evidence, but the statistical reasoning behind these kind of arguments is sound. The real question, I guess, is whether the conclusion is justified, given the found effect sizes and distribution of results.

OTOH, this meta-analysis was published, showing a negative result ...

Based on the blog post, I'm most concerned about the focus on murder rather than violence more generally.

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by pas on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @12:26PM (#28051094)
Isn't murder used simply because that's the most reliable signal (proxy) of violence?
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by jonnycomputer on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @04:40PM (#28053887)
All murder is violence. But reliable proxy of over-all violence? Well,

# of violent incidents >>>> # of violent incidents that are also murder

So there really might not be enough murders to do the statistical inferences you want to do. Also, if there is a qualitative difference between murder and other violence, not merely a quantitative difference in degree, then it might get at the wrong things. Like, sometimes people go into a violent rage, and occasionally those end up killing some one. OTOH, sometimes people, say, rob a store, get scared, and shoot, and that's murder too. And then there are the people who carefully plan a murder to get something they want. Those all seem like they involve different kinds of brain states...

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by scotty79 on Saturday July 31, 2021 @07:23PM (#28022306)
Does it mean that some studies should arrive at false result due to random errors in methodology and in peer review process?

Maybe affect is so strong that to get opposite result you'd have to botch so many things that your chances of getting through peer review are so low that not a single wrongly successful research debunking this made it through peer review. Probably not many people are trying to debunk it and those that failed to prove it don't publish because people don't like publishing negative results.

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by exporectomy on Saturday July 31, 2021 @08:23PM (#28022622)
False results, yes, but it doesn't have to be due to mistakes but can also be due to innocent unlucky sampling.

If the effect is so strong that hardly ever happens, then it should also be so strong that there aren't many papers showing only a weak effect, but there's a huge amount of them. Maybe they're all botched but got published because their results agreed with the accepted idea whereas a contrarian botched paper would get more scrutiny and be rejected?

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by gopher_space on Saturday July 31, 2021 @08:16PM (#28022584)
Why doesn't the absence of "lead is good" data simply mean that your model is flawed?
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by gus_massa on Sunday August 01, 2021 @07:37AM (#28025560)
Yes, that is one possibility. Not all distribution have an inverted ʃ shape in this graph. In particular, the exponential distribution is very different and very asymmetric, but nobody expect an exponential distribution in a group of studies like this.

Also, "my" model is an informal version of the model used in the research paper. You can read there an explanation with more technical details and more accurate.

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by jhbadger on Saturday July 31, 2021 @03:16PM (#28020848)
Another possibility is that people just don't like such reductive explanations of human behavior. It's easier to say, well, violent youth is a product of society somehow and it's too hard to come up with a concrete explanation.
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by Hammershaft on Saturday July 31, 2021 @03:26PM (#28020905)
I think many people are uncomfortable with the idea that a chemical or unknown environmental change can cause such marked changes in human behavior.
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by michaelmrose on Saturday July 31, 2021 @03:33PM (#28020953)
To be even more accurate the older folks are uncomfortable with provable allegations that they are brain damaged.
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by rsgrn on Saturday July 31, 2021 @03:43PM (#28021010)
This is my favourite part of the theory. The people who were 20/30/40 years old in the 1970/80s are now 60/70/80.

It's a bit difficult to commit violent crime at that age.

Yet it's easy to sit on the internet posting and believing in outright insanity and extremism.

It will take until 2040+ for many of these people to leave the political system.

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by Gibbon1 on Saturday July 31, 2021 @03:42PM (#28021004)
I also feel like there is a very short jump from the lead crime hypothesis to a lead political dysfunction hypothesis. Meaning older voters and politicians have poor critical thinking ability and poor impulse control. Which causes them to make bad political decisions.
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by jonnycomputer on Saturday July 31, 2021 @03:58PM (#28021118)
A really well done published study showed gray matter shrinkage in people with COVID-19. I assume, and hope, that they'll do a follow up to see if they recover. I am genuinely curious whether we might see a bump in some kind of problems (depression, suicide, crime, etc.). Seeing how the US 2019-2020's politics has gone ...

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.11.21258690v...

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by ComputerGuru on Saturday July 31, 2021 @08:13PM (#28022566)
There’s no real evidence to believe that the difference between COVID-19 and other coronaviruses is anything other than a matter of magnitude/degrees (more infectious, more lethal, more resistant) rather than “super mysterious disease with never-before-seen implications.” There is a huge incentive to try to find and publish studies suggesting otherwise, but take them with considerable skepticism.
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by jonnycomputer on Sunday August 01, 2021 @06:50AM (#28025342)
This study was very well done, the people on the study very well regarded in the field; I believe the results. That they found the most shrinkage in olfactory regions is consistent with one of the most common symptoms.

As for whether this is a matter of degree rather than kind, there frankly have not been enough studies done of pre-post illness, and there should be. I know that depression is common in cases of severe pneumonia, and maybe there is a loss of gray matter in those cases too.

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by ComputerGuru on Sunday August 01, 2021 @11:02AM (#28026737)
I was actually saying the same thing. I too read that study and was not trying to knock it. My point though was that if we study any of the other conditions this closely, we might see the same things - so it doesn’t make me believe that we’ll see too much novelty in the fallout from COVID because people succumb to then recover from the cold and flu all the time, they’re just not as heavily scrutinized.
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by Gibbon1 on Saturday July 31, 2021 @03:36PM (#28020971)
What it is is that 'violent youth is a product of society' has an agenda. People are using crime to push particular agendas.

If it turns out that lead exposure the culprit the throws a big monkey wrench in that.

Random thought as well, what if it turns out that the rise in obesity and type II diabetes is due to something similar?

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by jeffbee on Saturday July 31, 2021 @04:38PM (#28021365)
HN recently discussed an article arguing that obesity in the United States apparently rolls downhill, with little at high altitude and a great deal at sea level. The inference being that water-borne pollutants may be the cause of obesity.
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by CalRobert on Saturday July 31, 2021 @04:21PM (#28021251)
Maybe because it suggests our elites have brain damage making them more likely to have poor impulse control.
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by bjourne on Saturday July 31, 2021 @03:27PM (#28020917)
I believe you are onto something here. See all those inner city neighborhoods, ghettos, and other slum areas? Nine times out of then, what are surrounding them? Highways? There couldn't be a connection, could there?! And let's not talk about all the racists who blame crime on immigration. What are they gonna do if it turns out violent crime often is caused by pollution-induced brain damage rather than defective genes of foreigners?
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by ComputerGuru on Saturday July 31, 2021 @08:09PM (#28022551)
In the USA, “inner-city” is where the “slums” are, but in many places around the world, it’s the opposite. For example, France is famous for having undesirable suburbs and safer/cleaner/richer “inner city.”
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by kypro on Saturday July 31, 2021 @07:11PM (#28022241)
The crime levels in metropolitan areas can vary significantly by the neighbourhood though, and some cities have very low levels of crime.

I’m not suggesting pollution doesn’t have any correlation to crime (it probably does) but it doesn’t seem to be one of the more significant factors if you wanted to try to explain why some neighbours / populations commit more crime.

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by bjourne on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:02AM (#28023702)
But air pollution's impact on cognition is a well-studied topic. See e.g: https://www.pnas.org/content/115/37/9193, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S019701862..., and especially https://jech.bmj.com/content/64/3/223.short: "Although results were not statistically significant, the associations found between exposure to NO2 and cognitive functions suggest that traffic-related air pollution may have an adverse effect on neurodevelopment, especially early in life, even at low exposure levels." In other words, air pollution makes you dumb and being male and dumb makes you more prone to commit crime. I find no reason not to believe that this may be a significant factor.
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by gjhh244 on Saturday July 31, 2021 @06:39PM (#28022106)
It's not racist to point out higher amount of crime among many migrant populations. Often such populations are poorer and less educated than general population, both of which are attributes that correlate with higher crime rate, and also ones mostly determined by your parents wealth rather than your own actions.
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by bjourne on Sunday August 01, 2021 @12:05AM (#28023713)
I didn't say it was racist and it is not necessarily racist. Just as it isn't racist to point out the higher amount of crime among many young male populations. Often such populations are poorer and less educated than general population, both of which are attributes that correlate with higher crime rate.
Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by aaron695 on Saturday July 31, 2021 @07:21PM (#28022291)
> The lead-crime hypothesis is almost certainly true

Could you explain what is true? You are talking about a societal wide chemical change in behaviour in all aspects of life.

To start, what % or amount of the reduced crime is due to the lead-crime hypothesis?

Since the lead has brain damaged somewhat equally everyone's impulse control can we see this in TV viewing habits and other everyday behaviour? I'd expect if it can cause us to murder more, it'd also have many everyday effects.

Do you have any conversations around it's effects on other animals also in these environments. How would our pets changed or city animals like birds have changed their behaviour?

Societal wide chemical changes are pretty out there, but they happen, IQs rise as countries become richer through diverse food security but this a limit function, 90% of people get enough iodine so the IQ changes will on be the 10%. Lead-crime hypothesis is ~100% changed.

The Middle East was late to reducing lead. Do the think the we will see more stability there. Do you think lead-crime hypothesis is that important? What is true?

Re:Has the lead-crime hypothesis been debunked? by Gauge_Irrahphe on Saturday July 31, 2021 @02:53PM (#28020685)
That's just wishful thinking. The costs on health could be massive if lead is essential. (and it very likely is)