Also, salaries are lower in general but I get the impression Europe is better in this regard. I see older people in IT, at least in Western Europe (in Eastern Europe the field is too new).
They are invariably a large group of smiling -young- faces. There may be one or two greyhairs in the picture, but a quick shufti of the "Leadership" page often shows them to be C-suite or Board.
Yeah, I'm a cynic.
I see 35 year olds and think "that guy is just a kid"!
I am a Spaniard who was fortunate to qualify to a US visa, so I was able to come over. I have many friends who went into CS, but didn't have the chances to come over as I did. As far as Spain goes, what I am able to make in the American Midwest pays for an entire team of developers in my hometown, who don't get more vacations than I do, and often work far longer hours.
And it's not just Spain. A local company here has started a Polish development center, because despite the language barriers, and the time difference, it's hard to pass up a total cost per employee of about 1/4th the equivalent developer in Missouri, and those Missouri developers get a month of vacation, and nobody works more than 40 hours a week.
If the concern is just places with bad work/life balance, we can find them on both sides of the Atlantic. My brother in Spain works 60 hour weeks more often than not, just like some people I know at very large online retailers. Those kind of situations can happen anywhere: But in some cases someone gets to choose it because they like the RSUs that come with it, and in others, it's just that the local market really is that bad.
So if I were you, I'd look in detail, as a generalization on work life balance might be very different than you think once you are on the ground. Take a look at "The trimodal nature of the European software market". There really are very few jobs in the top tier, the second tier is quite a bit worse than the US's second tier, for similar work/life balance, and the third tier is so far from the US, you might as well be comparing working conditions of Software developers with Uber drivers.
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_household...
> Household final consumption expenditure (HFCE) is not an exhaustive measure of the goods and services consumed by households. The general government and non-profit institutions serving households (NPISH) often provide goods and services to households for their individual consumption free of charge or at reduced prices. Examples are health services provided by governments or reimbursed by a social security fund, education services, the part of service provided by public museums, concert halls, operas, swimming pools that is not financed by entrance fees, aid for social housing etc. By adding the general government's and NPISHs' individual consumption expenditure to household final consumption expenditure one receives the actual final consumption of households.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_final_consumption_ex...
Edit: Also another way to interpret that value is that is how much households has to spend to uphold decent way of life in that country. So it is really expensive to live in America so people have to work hard to survive. Of course you can't say for sure what is true, but if an American has to spend 50% more to live the same quality of life as a German person then of course he will be less willing to take vacation instead of the money.
If we look at median wealth (don't use average because highly distorted by wealthy tail), the US comes below a lot of other countries:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_...
i.e. cherry picking and using invalid metrics can tell whatever story you wish.
That doesn't sound too great. You probably mean better.
If you don’t mind and if it’s not sensitive do you mind to share some examples? I’ve just gone past the 40 year threshold myself and I think I’m starting to see/notice some of the same things you noticed, i.e. less “camaraderie” (for lack of a better word) and more “getting on top of the other”, a feeling I didn’t have when I entered this industry 15 years ago.
Just yesterday I happened to sit in a coffee shop close to a table where an IT lead (or something like that) was interviewing (I think it was an interview) a younger potential hire (it was a woman, if it counts), and I found his tone and remarks and general demeanor quite off-putting, I was one step way of telling the guy “why the heck are you spewing such bullshit?”, but then again I didn’t want to ruin said young lady’s job interview.
But I have been told "You know, because you're older, you'll need to ask for less" by recruiters (recruiters are the worst).
I've had testers (silly tests), be quite disrespectful, and use tone and engagement (or lack, thereof), to make it clear that this is an annoyance for them, and I should just "get it over with," so they can do something "more important," I guess.
I've had numerous recruiters suddenly develop "connection problems" on the phone, moments after I've made it clear that I'm older. They promise to get back to me, and I never hear from them again (I believe that kids, these days, call that "ghosting").
I've had initial screeners (I assume HR), do the same thing.
One pleasant experience was actually Facebook. They have been polite, respectful, and cheerful. I have not felt discriminated by them. I don't think that I want to work there, but I feel as if they would be approachable. I have had other FAANG companies that were shockingly rude, and that surprised and disappointed me.
Probably, the worst thing, for me, is the unwillingness to check my portfolio. It’s friggin huge. Many years in the making, with lots of shipping products.
I’ve actually been told that “I probably faked it,” and given a stupid binary tree test.
This has not been my experience. Part of it may be that I don't really do the whole "self-promotion" thing so well.
I'm pretty good at what I do. I have worked with many, many people that are much better than I am, so I don't let it get to my head.
But whenever I mention what I'm good at, it's met with snorts of disbelief. That's crazy. I am not claiming to be Superman.
I have a massive portfolio that proves what I claim. It has 30 or more (complete, documented, tested, and supported) repos, with over a decade of checkin history, and full source for a whole boatload of [mostly deprecated] shipping applications. Don't believe me? Clone the repo, and hit "Build." I have dozens of blog entries, articles, teaching series, etc.; all linked from my SO story. I even have the PDF manual for my very first engineering project, in 1987.
What I can (and can't) do is not a matter for debate. Like I said, I have worked with many folks that make me look like a piker.
Here's an example:
About a month and a half ago, I responded to an article, where the author claimed we "never finished" anything. This was what I posted:
>> I dare you to list three finished software projects.
> I can probably list 30, and point to the repos.
It's 100% true. You don't need to take my word for it. Simply look at my SO story. I link to it in my HN handle.
Someone that obviously did not bother to do exactly that, posted a challenge, basically calling me a liar. I responded by throwing the seed into the nest, and posting a link to my SO story[0]. They never responded, after that.
Like I said, I know that I'm pretty good at what I do, but I spent my entire career around folks that made me look like a beginner.
It's really, really sad that people seem to consider that kind of stuff to be a lie.
I also did not get this feeling from other technology industries that weren't "Tech". Places full of PhDs, but disconnected from the SV culture. And frankly, less motivated by money and more by lifestyle.
Maybe it all boils down to money. There's too much money in Tech. It attracts the worst, and brings out the worst.
That is my thesis.
In New York, we have the finance industry, which is just as bad (if not worse).
It has also been like this for most of a century. That does not bode well for Tech improving.
That's where ALL the money is, and it's where the worst culture (and worst tech) is, imo. :p
I mean, hell, why else would anyone learn React? $$$$$$
[a] In a material sense, excluding moral and ethical achievements. "Mad Men"-style success, not Buddha-style success.
[b] Although Americans on average are extraordinarily charitable in terms of dollars donated
I've written a fairly massive infrastructure system that is used throughout the world, and has, undoubtedly, saved lives. It will probably continue to do so, in some form or another, long after I take my dirt nap. It has formed the nucleus of an entire Service structure; not just one application.
Did I do it to be considered a "hero"? Did I do it for financial reward?
The answer to both is "No." I have stepped away from the project, and it has taken on a life of its own.
I developed the system over a period of a couple of years, at first, and refined it for a decade, before finding a team willing to take the reins. That required that I step away from the project, and cede total control: technical, IP, legal, etc., to the new team.
Before long, I'll be nothing more than a footnote in the historical record.
Thousands of people, around the world, use the system, every day. During the COVID impact on the users, it was rapidly adapted to serve a very new environment. It has always been completely localizable, and has a simple, powerful semantic interface that allowed all sorts of cool adapters that I only vaguely predicted, in 2008, when I started it.
I never charged a dime for it. In fact, it cost me thousands to maintain and evangelize it.
I'll probably never get credit for most of the work and planning that I did, and I'm fine with that.
I consider that "high achievement." I did a lot of it, because I needed to keep my tech chops up, and saw a need that could be filled. I enjoyed the process of envisioning the project's lifecycle, planning its genesis, and implementing it. It allowed me to do stuff that my employers would not let me do.
It wasn't because I'm some kind of saint, or martyr. In fact, a lot of folks, during its early years, thought that I was a cantankerous, dictatorial, controlling bastard. I needed to keep the project on task, and in focus. That often meant being a real dick (I'm good at that).
When I finally encountered some tech people that were qualified to handle it, and take it to the next level, it was important for me to turn it over completely, and get the hell out of the way. By that time, I was sick of it. I wanted to learn new tech, and work on different stuff. I basically slowed down the car, pushed it out onto the sidewalk, and went screeching off into the distance.
Most of the work that I've done, in the last four years, has been stuff that I wanted to do, for fun. I had a number of theories about developing high-quality software, I wanted to really get down and dirty with Swift, I wanted to develop applications that made me proud, and I wanted to work my ass off. I like working. You won't find me on a golf course. The coroner is gonna have to rub "YTREWQ" off my cheek, because I'll faceplant on my keyboard, when I pop my clogs.
I'm no saint, but I also consider myself to have a very high degree of Integrity. I have absolutely no desire at all to sacrifice that for money.
All said and done, what you describe is another type of high achievement and one that isn't necessarily opposed to massive earnings (at least as a means); that of the skilled artisan. Even if you have helped millions of people in lieu of lucre, the pursuit of high achievement of any kind still required selfishness on your part. You still decided how everything was run and as well as the standards under which it should be run following your departure.
In that sense you're a hero of a sort. Even if you don't see it. It takes heroic effort to scaffold one's integrity, vision, and time into a project with the goal that said project will improve itself years down the line. All of what you've worked on is ,directly or indirectly, a product of your choices.
Off to shave my head...
It doesn't matter that 50 year olds can do the same work just as well, no, management seems to want freaking Energizer bunnies on their team.
Nevermind that they don't actually get more work done (and more importantly, better), it's just about being "passionate" about doing the same shit every day. Wtf.
When I read it, I am impressed, and it was done in 1987. It was an internal tool, that was used to test defense tech. I treated the project as if it was being delivered to the field, and lives depended on it. It was that much of an Honor for me to have the chance to do that work.
I am a high school dropout. I got a GED, and had to fight for everything I got. That means that I valued everything, and never treated it as "my due."
Every job that I have ever had, has been a Signal Honor. It has been a privilege, and a chance to learn more, and push my boundaries. Every team that I ever joined, was composed of people that were better than me, and had something to teach me. It was always an Honor to be admitted to their ranks.
I understood, from my very first assignment, that I needed to ship.
Shipping is what makes money. Shipping is what builds brands. Shipping is what the customer wants and needs.
Everything else is just a low SNR.
That's why I have always treated every single one of my projects as if it were a gift, given to me, and one that needs to be treated with Respect, Honor and Dignity. It needs to be done well, and it needs to be finished. I consider myself to be a craftsman, as well as an engineer. I won't design garbage, and I don’t want my work to be treated as garbage[0] (if I have any say in it -which has not always been the case).
I know that attitude sounds over-dramatic, ridiculous, and anachronistic, but it's the one I have. I'm not looking for work. I don't really have an investment in what people think about that, anymore. The people that matter, know me, and they know my work.
If I'm not getting paid, I can vote with my feet.
If I take a job, and take money, then I am bound by Integrity and Personal Honor, to do all in my power to complete the contracted tasks; and to do so, well.
If I am working on a volunteer basis, then, if they become douches, I pack my bags and leave. I don't give a rat's ass about prestige and todger-measuring contests. I do the work, because I find it personally fulfilling. I don't act like a prima donna, but I also don't brook nonsense. They figure that out, fairly quickly.
But that hasn't happened. The sheer value of the Quality of the work I do -I am not exaggerating- is something most Fortune 500 companies don't get. I think that this gets past the egos.
I've found that I'm actually treated with Respect, and I don't have to arm-wrestle insecure managers for every damn thing.
Also, I have been working with NPOs for 40 years. It's only been the last 4, that it has been full-time.
As a result, I reached the point, where I don't need to work, if I don't want to.
I want to work. I love what I do. I don't need to make money at it. I also like to help people, so I found people that want to help people, and can't afford much.
It really is a shame. I have a fairly significant set of skills and experience. Pretty much what a startup would need, to make a new product a reality. I know how to make very high-quality software that ships. I did it for my entire career. I also do quite well on teams, and have been a problem-solver, all my life.
The folks I'm working with now, pinch themselves, every day.
Doesn't necessarily have to be an overwhelming product, but just a way of practicing and exploring work.
Most of the work I do, is self-education. I love to learn, and I have been maintaining my competency in shipping work for decades (Which often means that I am not right at the "bleeding edge." Shipping is usually a couple of steps back from that).
If you check out my SO Story[0], you'll see a whole boatload of published modules. They are -each and every one- totally "ship-ready." I produce them as if they are to be commercial-grade products, with the appearance of a major-league brand -even the experimental projects.
There are also complete source code bases for a number of published (and many, since, deprecated) apps on the Apple App Store. I've been shipping apps continuously, since 2012. I've provided full source code for all of them.
I don't promote them at all. I don't really care. I have no idea if anyone uses them. I have a few stars, and a couple of forks, but I've not seen my stuff appear anywhere (It's MIT, so I assume I'd be noted in the README -HAH!).
Many of these are 1-source-file development utilities, with dozens of files of testing code, wrapped around them.
I like Quality.
I'm my own best customer. I tend to be pretty skeptical of most of the available dependencies, out there, so I like to write my own.
The project I'm working on now, is non-trivial. It's the kind of thing that normally takes a team of at least five engineers, running 24/7 on Red Bull, to do. I do well at these kinds of things. It's coming along nicely, and will be ready in a few months. I also wrote two of the servers I use.
It is not (currently) open-source, but I may, sometimes, spin an open-source module out of it. I just did one, a couple of weeks ago (LGV_Cleantime).
I just gave up, and retired early. Best decision I ever made. I'm working for free, with NPOs, and it's been a joy.
The worst part, for me, has been the naked contempt and disrespect. I don't expect to be worshipped, but raw insults are beyond the pale. It's -literally- like a hazing ritual. With all the news about "frat boy culture," I think I see where it comes from.
I don't think it's just us older folks. It seems as if the entire industry has gone down the bog. My guess is that younger folks are getting similar treatment, but are more willing to shrug it off, and power through.