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Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by nielsbot on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @08:40PM (#27991493)
Wouldn't forming a union help them better negotiate as a group?

FTA: "Activision Blizzard employees are also calling for an end to mandatory arbitration in employee contracts, which prevent workers from taking conflicts with their employer to court, policies to improve representation of women and marginalized groups, the publication of salary data, and an audit of the company by a diversity, equity and inclusion taskforce."

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by elefanten on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @08:54PM (#27991557)
It sure as hell would accelerate the outsourcing of game development, which has rapidly growing capacity outside of the US & Western Europe. We're already very near the tipping point where non-Western studios will produce >50% of global industry revenue.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by d4mi3n on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @09:04PM (#27991628)
There’s a whole line of discussion to be had around the realities of outsourcing to be had, but I’d like to focus on discussing employee rights.

Are we OK with employees being treated like this? Are we willing to make concessions on our relationships with our employer under threat of losing our jobs (outsourcing is just one of the many ways a job can be taken away).

I’m of the thinking that companies should not be able to abuse the inherent power they hold as employers to deny some pretty basic rights like the ability to sue from individual employees.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by chadcmulligan on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @09:17PM (#27991718)
Unions do this, they negotiate agreements that are fair and equitable for the members. I grew up with unions and have seen them go out of favour, and the practices that caused the unions in the first place are rising again. The part I find surprising/despicable is how much money is put towards denigrating unions so that the workers think they're bad - the recent amazon vote comes to mind.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by winphone1974 on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @09:49PM (#27991929)
Well I grew up on the other side of unions where my parents couldn't get jobs because a strong union protected those lucky enough to get in early, with no concern for their skills or performance. The same behaviors that people here are so shocked by are busy as common in the old school unions you're proposing as the solution.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by kevingadd on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @09:54PM (#27991961)
This specific criticism goes both ways and isn't unique to unions, though. Even in a non-union workplace, the bosses' friends are likely to be protected from termination despite bad performance. Maybe one of your parents ends up sick or injured so their performance at work is suffering and you really want them to be protected while they get through that temporary hurdle instead of being laid off and replaced with cheap new labor. Eliminating unions doesn't eliminate the issues you're talking about.

As far as not being able to get a job goes, it sounds like your real complaint is that there aren't enough jobs. That will be true whether or not a workplace is unionized in most cases since the employer has a certain amount of work they need done by a certain number of people.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by pronlover723 on Thursday July 29, 2021 @03:07AM (#27993704)
My experience with unions from from (a) conventions centers and (b) aerospace. In both, they are a net negative from my POV.

At convention centers they inflate prices by passing rules that no one but a union worker can carry anything into the convention center. The monitor broke and your booth and you run to best buy to get a replacement. Sorry, find a unionized person to carry it in for you or GTFO. Oh, you want to plug in it in? Sorry, call a unionized electrician or be sued.

An aerospace it meant everyone's role was super strict and trying to do anything outside your role was against the rule. In software that would mean things like front end programmer not allowed to touch backend code. UI programmer not allowed to touch business logic code. Etc.... Maybe someone will argue that's a good thing but AFAICT it just slowed work to a crawl and made people uncooperative

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by 908B64B197 on Thursday July 29, 2021 @12:39PM (#27998393)
> An aerospace it meant everyone's role was super strict and trying to do anything outside your role was against the rule.

Was it because of regulations (ie who's certified for maintenance on X airplane type) ?

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by kevingadd on Thursday July 29, 2021 @10:54AM (#27997255)
Having done sweng in various roles, I think in aerospace I wouldn't want a UI programmer working on autopilot or fly-by-wire code, but that's just me.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by dbsmith83 on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @10:54PM (#27992301)
> Even in a non-union workplace, the bosses' friends are likely to be protected from termination despite bad performance

Maybe one or two, but not a large proportion of an aging workforce riding purely on the protection of the union

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by underseacables on Thursday July 29, 2021 @01:03AM (#27992937)
I think the federal government is a good example of what happens when you have a union that protects bad employees. It’s very hard to get fired from the government, because the union protects the bad with the good. A great example are the rubber rooms where they have to put bad teachers because the union forbids them from being fired.

Unions had their day, now they are just slush funds and protections for bad people.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by lmm on Friday July 30, 2021 @01:35AM (#28004799)
> A great example are the rubber rooms where they have to put bad teachers because the union forbids them from being fired.

Actually teachers in those were those who had been accused of misconduct and then either they were awaiting arbitration, mostly because the state wasn't paying their agreed proportion of arbitration fees, or arbitration had cleared them and the state wasn't returning them to their jobs as agreed. Some may have been bad teachers but most were just people the admins had taken a dislike to. Blaming the unions for that is pure propaganda.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by IncandescentGas on Sunday August 01, 2021 @04:01PM (#28029369)
At what age specifically do you believe an aging tradesman should be stripped of worker protections? 30? 42? 60?
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by dbsmith83 on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:50PM (#28039165)
How long specifically should you pay a worker who is not productive at their job and is killing the business? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? Until the business dies?

I don't think you really interpreted my statement fairly. Perhaps I should have chosen another word instead of aging, but I was thinking in the traditional factory sense where there is a correlation with age and performance doing manual labor. Age should not be the indicator, performance should.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by chadcmulligan on Thursday July 29, 2021 @02:23AM (#27993440)
Some unions did some bad things, therefore everything unions did is bad. That wasn't my experience with unions, I see kids now being treated very badly by dictatorial management, things that just wouldn't happen with a decent union presence. Sure unions need to be kept in line, but no unions isn't a good solution imho.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by gogopuppygogo on Thursday July 29, 2021 @12:24PM (#27998256)
Unions have a well deserved reputation for putting seniority over merit. If we ever figure out how to Unionize with meritocracy as the focus we can solve a lot of problems for labor.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by wheelinsupial on Thursday July 29, 2021 @01:29PM (#27998967)
How do sports unions work? They seem to have no issues with negotiating salaries that are multiples of the league minimum for superstars.

Unions I’ve worked in or am familiar with do care about seniority over merit as you mention. They also make it so new jobs need to go to internal candidates over external candidates. Furthermore, internal candidates are even provided retraining opportunities. Management needs to show there is no one in the organization capable of doing the job before opening it externally.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by lmm on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @11:22PM (#27992467)
The only thing the absence of that union would have changed would be more money in the owners' pockets. If hiring your parents would be profitable the owners would do it; if not, not, not. That's true regardless of how profitable or not the other employees are.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by addingnumbers on Thursday July 29, 2021 @09:00AM (#27995970)
That's a short-sighted take. The presence of a union completely changes staffing decisions. If hiring his parents would be profitable, the owners are out of luck because they are fully staffed with worse performers who are protected.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by underseacables on Thursday July 29, 2021 @01:01AM (#27992930)
My grandfather worked in a Coopermill and you had to be a member of the union. If you tried to leave the union, as a few people tried, your legs got broken. Unions can be effective, but not if you forced everyone to join it.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by pjmlp on Thursday July 29, 2021 @03:22AM (#27993797)
In Europe many appreciate the benefits they get from union agreements, even without belonging to them.

Ironically I have never heard of anyone going to management stating that they wanted to be out of the agreement that was settled for the industry they were in, regardless of their actual job.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by esyir on Thursday July 29, 2021 @11:49PM (#28004234)
You can disagree with something because of second order effects.

If the government came out with a monthly 10k usd handout, I'd call it shortsighted and dumb. Doesn't meant I'm not taking it regardless.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by winphone1974 on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @09:48PM (#27991920)
Well I grew up on the other side of unions where my parents couldn't get jobs because a strong union protected those lucky enough to get in early, with no concern for their skills or performance. The same behaviors that people here are so shocked by are just as common in the old school unions you're proposing as the solution.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by hulitu on Thursday July 29, 2021 @03:00AM (#27993653)
The problem with unions is that power corrupts and some of them become political organizations.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by stuaxo on Thursday July 29, 2021 @06:09AM (#27994725)
Maybe that is a US perspective?

A union is political in it's very nature (and of course it's an organisation).

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by Tiktaalik on Thursday July 29, 2021 @01:19AM (#27993015)
As someone in the games industry that has seen the stuff that foreign "helper" studios "contribute" I do not feel this is likely...
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by dam5s on Thursday July 29, 2021 @08:53AM (#27995895)
Agreed, as a consultant in software engineering (not games though), a lot of companies that used to outsource have come back for many reasons, mainly communication and code quality.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by esyir on Thursday July 29, 2021 @11:46PM (#28004220)
I'm fine with that. Western games have by large fallen off the radar for me, at least those run by large companies. Only a few really stand out right now.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by tehjoker on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @10:16PM (#27992078)
Capitalism is global so organizing must be as well. Workers must organize at their company, sectorally across the industry, and internationally with other workers so the capitalists have no where to run.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by alexanderdmitri on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @11:42PM (#27992553)
> so the capitalists have no where to run.

Curious what definition of capitalist you are using here.

Three common meanings according to the Oxford dictionary are:

1. a person who invests capital in business enterprises.

2. an advocate of capitalism.

3. a very wealthy person.

You can advocate capitalism and also support behavioral standards and worker rights in the workplace. It's not anti-capitalist to disagree with your employer's policies or culture, standing up for you and your fellow workers' bottom line can be capitalistic in of itself.

If there's a market for services to help individuals assert their rights and fight for better conditions, then investing in this market is as fundamentally capitalistic as investing in a market that services the opposite.

As a capitalist, you could even invest in both these markets at the same time. Check out this index fund:

https://www.invesco.com/us/financial-products/mutual-funds/q...

There's Altria (cigarettes) and Anthem (health insurance). Tesla (EVs) and Exxon (gasoline/petroleum). Even Activision (corporation of topic) and Stryker (actually no idea what this company does, so assuming they fund and profit off worker strykes). The thing about capitalism is that it doesn't run from conflict or mobs or regulation, it profits off the needs and desires these things create.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by wonderwonder on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @10:40PM (#27992216)
"so the capitalists have no where to run" Who is going to finance the companies and workers that build those games then? These games cost hundreds of millions of dollars to build, who is going to front the money if they don't expect a significant return. That is capitalism in a nutshell.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by tehjoker on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @10:43PM (#27992233)
The lords of finance have historically been the enemies of the working man. All their money comes from our pockets and the people's printing press. We can run things ourselves.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by missedthecue on Thursday July 29, 2021 @12:16AM (#27992725)
If your money doesn't come from other people's pockets, I'm curious where it does come from.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by wonderwonder on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @10:57PM (#27992326)
You just parroted a couple of slogans at me that sound like they belong on a Bolshevik pamphlet, you did not answer the question. Who is going to fund these things? You can claim that there are successful solo developers and you would be right, people like Notch and Eric Barone but these people are the exception and they certainly don't pay for teams of hundreds or thousands. So again, who is going to pay the bills for all of these people that are going to work at these new companies? Don't get me wrong I am not endorsing any of the actions of the people in these lawsuits but they don't represent capitalism; they are just creeps, and all groups be they economic, religious, or corporate have them. I am all for workers getting treated better and paid better, I am a worker; but just repeating slogans is not it.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by jessaustin on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @11:36PM (#27992521)
Money doesn't come from rich people. Most money nowadays comes from the state. Rich people might have it temporarily, but it exists independently from them. (Of course many states are controlled entirely by rich people, but at least theoretically that doesn't have to be the case.)

Of course money itself is mostly an abstraction. It represents the value of human creation, and you don't need rich people to create value with and for other humans.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by drdeca on Thursday July 29, 2021 @03:14AM (#27993746)
I don’t think “money doesn’t come from (in the sense of originate from) rich people” does much to address the question of “how do you propose that game development projects involving many people be funded?” .

The question is not “what is the ultimate origin of the money”, but “by what mechanism does it come to be allocated to the project”.

I think some would answer “the funding for the project should be democratically allocated by the employees of the company, from previous company income”, which, I suppose is coherent, though I think some substantially overestimate how much of a benefit it would have.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by danaris on Thursday July 29, 2021 @11:32AM (#27997735)
Most game development is not funded by a rich person just handing a development studio a chunk of money and saying "build this". It's funded either off the profits of a previous endeavor, or, these days, through Kickstarter.

And while I certainly support worker cooperatives as a company model, even that doesn't require funding for new initiatives to be "democratically allocated by employees of the company". There's still usually at least some form of hierarchy.

We really need to get over the worship of rich people in this country. Having more money than God doesn't mean they should be treated like gods. In fact, what it means, in almost every case, is that they exploited workers in some form or other to get their fortune. The only exceptions I know of are people like MacKenzie Scott, who got their billions from someone who exploited workers to get their fortune.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by drdeca on Thursday July 29, 2021 @04:03PM (#28000775)
> Most game development is not funded by a rich person just handing a development studio a chunk of money and saying "build this".

I didn’t think they were; I thought we were just talking about people who own (controlling shares in), or lead, companies, and their influence over the processes of the development of the games (both in terms of the working environment, and the content of the game).

Perhaps I read over a previous part of the thread too quickly?

I’m confused as to what the disagreement is about? It is in some way about “capitalists” and game development funding, but like, everyone understands that games aren’t funded by a single person paying a group of people to develop a particular game. What is the actual disagreement here?

____

Regarding the worship of the wealthy , that would, of course, be idolatry, and bad. I’m confident that I’m not doing that.

____ Regarding “exploited workers” : perhaps due to me being perhaps strongly biased, I don’t really, feel compelled by this phrase. It means very little to me. When people say “exploited workers”, as far as I can tell, all it means is “profited by employing people” + the speaker disapproves of that. The emotive language doesn’t compel me to agree with their disapproval.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by tehjoker on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @11:04PM (#27992358)
Industry should be funded in a planned way with public money. Institutions similar to NIH/NSF should provide grants for people to be experimental. There would be a track for "scale up" for successful experiments.

In certain cases such as entertainment, it might be desirable to maintain markets as a significant fraction of the industry, but we've seen how large concentrations of private money lead to companies taking "safe" and monoculture approaches to movies, games, etc.

We already have huge concentrations of media doing their own planning exclusively for their own benefit right now. The planning should be made democratic.

The workers will control their workplaces. The exact division of control of the industry will have to be negotiated politically and the way the rewards are shared between industry and the public generally will also be democratically decided. There are many proposals for how this might be done.

It's helpful to think about the division of labor between town, state, and federal levels. The company would form a new democratic level. It forms a political entity now, but not a democratic one.

The slogans are helpful because they elicit questions like yours.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by wonderwonder on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @11:12PM (#27992417)
Good answer, I am not opposed and would actually love if the government would start providing funding to small startups so people could take risks. Currently in many cases the ability to take risk is limited to young single people, people with a supportive family or people with a significant financial cushion. Regarding "Democratically decided" spending decisions how would that be accomplished when the country is split almost 50/50 on everything? It changes very quickly if for example 50.1 % of the voting public wants money spent on border walls, police and defense. Is that not the people's will then at that time?
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by tehjoker on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @11:27PM (#27992486)
I think there are a couple ways to look at your question.

1) Most people in this country don't vote (outside of a slim majority in presidential elections) for a large variety of reasons, but mostly because they know it doesn't change anything for them. The American system was designed as a system of baffles to insulate the elites from the rabble quite explicitly (indirect election of senators, 3/5 compromise, bicameral legislature with senate apportioned by territory instead of people, voting restricted to white male property owners (literally a vote by the elite only), etc), but these days it has developed into an effective democratic illusion in a path dependent fashion. So in other words, I don't think the country is split in this way, but the partisans of the two flavors of the single political party are highly polarized. Neither of them have any concern for workers, note the total lack of economic issues in their agendas and the tomfoolery around 15 $/hr minimum wage. More political participation would right the ship imo.

2) There are cases where votes are split fairly evenly on contentious issues. I'm not sure that private dictatorships are always better on these questions. Sometimes the mad king flip flops constantly, other times a hard line is taken against the will of half the people. It's something that has to be worked out politically and possibly with leadership. In some cases, I do think such things require constitutional remedies (for example, no one should be allowed to vote to re-institute slavery for example). For such close votes, I would shy away from saying the result is "the people's will", but an outcome of process. Votes are one method of measuring the will of the polity. Unfortunately, I don't think there's ever a way to be completely precise as it's possible even for people to change their minds and switch sides on an issue en mass!

One example of a vote I would be skeptical of: the way Uber rigged the wording of the recent proposal to recognize its employees as contractors to get out of a court ruling. They made it sound like voting yes was voting no. Votes are really effective ways to do democracy, but I don't think there's any method we can use that allows us to stop thinking critically about it.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by jayd16 on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @11:39PM (#27992539)
The goal is human rights and profit.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by LatteLazy on Thursday July 29, 2021 @03:58AM (#27994025)
I'm not sure unions can help with cultural issues: the frats can and should also join the union, then the union has to represent them. If the frat boy culture is rife in the company, it will be rife in the union.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by hermannj314 on Thursday July 29, 2021 @08:30AM (#27995644)
I was part of one union and it did a good job of negotiating benefits, pay, hours, seniority, job titles, etc.

If the issue you have with management is harassment primarily, is it possible to create a union only to resolve that issue? Many may not want to give up individual bargaining on pay or hours simply because they wanted collective bargaining to deal with workplace harassment culture. How can an individual on the fence about supporting a union have guarantees to prevent that scope creep when forming a union? Or is it an all or nothing proposition? I.e. the union must negotiate everything on your behalf or it can not exist.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by garmaine on Thursday July 29, 2021 @01:29AM (#27993091)
Unions work where labor is interchangeable. That is definitely not the case in game industry, where people are highly specialized and super creative.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by ryathal on Thursday July 29, 2021 @08:50AM (#27995869)
The vast majority of developers on modern games are interchangeable peons that are essentially working high paying gigs as they get laid off when the game ships.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by seanhunter on Thursday July 29, 2021 @02:06AM (#27993352)
There are unions in the film industry for example which seems extremely comparable.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by garmaine on Thursday July 29, 2021 @03:03AM (#27993675)
Not for the creative roles. Maybe you're thinking of guilds? They're both forms of collective representation, but quite different on the ground.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by seanhunter on Friday July 30, 2021 @01:46AM (#28004849)
They certainly are a union and describe themselves as such.

For example, from https://www.wga.org/the-guild/about-us/guide-to-the-guild

"We are the Writers Guild of America West (WGAW), a labor union composed of the thousands of writers who write the content for television shows, movies, news programs, documentaries, animation, and Internet and mobile phones (new media) that keep audiences constantly entertained and informed. "

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by garmaine on Friday July 30, 2021 @03:30AM (#28005363)
I'm sure they do describe themselves as a union. Most non-insiders don't know the difference between the two, and probably many guild members don't either. But legally speaking, a guild is an organization for collective bargaining of independent contractors, while a union is for employees.

If you are a television producer hiring a writer, you don't go to the WGA. You just interview a bunch of writers, select the one you want, and offer them the job. Like you would any other job, really, except that if the writer is a member of the guild then the terms of employment must meet some certain standards, with rules about crediting and overtime, etc. But so long as you adhere to the guild's rules, it's like hiring any other independent contractor.

But if you're a ship captain wanting to offload cargo, you go to the longshoreman's union and as for N day workers. You don't pick who, and you don't negotiate rates other than specifying (and paying for) the desired experience level. You ask for N longshoremen, and you get N warm bodies and the bill.

To the point of this conversation, a guild makes more sense in a creative project where the skill and art of the worker matters to the end result. If you're producing a TV comedy, you really need to make sure you employ the correct writers. Likewise for game designers.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by seanhunter on Saturday July 31, 2021 @12:35PM (#28019589)
If they themselves describe themselves as a union it seems strange not to take that at face value.

That being said, even if you don't accept that, there are unions (not guilds) for independent contractors in the creative fields for example in the UK the musicians' union and Equity (the actors' union). If you are hiring musicians or actors in the UK you will for sure be hiring the specific people you want and they will very likely be members of the union.

Your example about hiring union workers may be how it works in the US but is not the case in other countries - you would hire them just like any other independent contractor or employee.

Source: I have been a member of both creative and non-creative unions in my career. I've been in the musicians' union and my wife and many friends are members of the ISM (another union for musicians with more traction in the classical music world) and I have also been a member of a more conventional union (the GMB or "General Municipal and Boilermakers' union") believe it or not. In no case have I ever been hired on the basis of a process like you describe.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by pjmlp on Thursday July 29, 2021 @03:23AM (#27993810)
Apparently it works in Europe, go figure.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by HowTheStoryEnds on Thursday July 29, 2021 @08:18AM (#27995555)
As a european(Belgian) I can only anecdotally tell you: no, it doesn't. They're the same instrument of collusion with the employer to keep wages down for the many in exchange for benefits of the upper few while also serving as the counterweight that keeps both the incompetent and the malicious firmly fixed in place. To put it in current days' terms: they're a major source of toxicity.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by pjmlp on Thursday July 29, 2021 @08:54AM (#27995911)
Well it works in Portugal and Germany from my point of view.

I take my 40h week, health insurance, vacations anywhere I feel like, paid overtime, over some magical wage in exchange for less benefits that exploit working class.

Anyone that feels it isn't their thing is free to make their own business, free of union agreements and see how they manage for themselves in the market.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by garmaine on Thursday July 29, 2021 @12:27PM (#27998288)
> Anyone that feels it isn't their thing is free to make their own business, free of union agreements and see how they manage for themselves in the market.

In the United States this is not true. In many states once the union is established in an industry, it becomes illegal to operate a new business without the union.

We have bad union laws.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by pjmlp on Thursday July 29, 2021 @01:47PM (#27999243)
It is sad that one of the countries where the union movement was born out of the abuse from companies during the industrial age revolution, a subject that Charlie Chaplin even joked about, has turned into an union hate country.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by garmaine on Thursday July 29, 2021 @03:19PM (#28000273)
Arguably we have had the industrial successes we have because of the caution about unions. Unions definitely have incentives which hold back innovation and productivity increases (in the economic sense).

But also I didn't say union laws are bad. There are some specific industries/occupations in which unions are A Good Thing. What I said is that the laws we have around unions are really non-ideal and lead to worse outcomes for everybody.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by pjmlp on Friday July 30, 2021 @01:55AM (#28004894)
> Unions definitely have incentives which hold back innovation and productivity increases (in the economic sense).

I happen to see it in other way.

Then again, I surely wouldn't like to be on US during the McCarthy era.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by garmaine on Friday July 30, 2021 @03:33AM (#28005383)
Unions lead to innovation and an increase in economic productivity? How so?
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by pjmlp on Friday July 30, 2021 @05:02AM (#28005960)
Innovation and increase in economic productivity are worthless when obtained via explotation of worker rights.

Modern feudalism desiguised as innovation and increase in economic productivity of a select nobility.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by oijasfpoi on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @10:17PM (#27992086)
Have you ever dealt with an actual union in the US? The ones I've dealt with are incredibly sexist and racist. They work to protect harassers, and they prevent employees from taking their employers to court.
Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by tehjoker on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @10:45PM (#27992245)
Have you ever dealt with an actual company in the US? The ones I've dealt with are incredibly sexist and racist. They work to protect harassers and they prevent employees from taking their employers to court.

EDIT: To elaborate, if you are in a bind, you have usually four places to turn. The employer, the state, your coworkers and other workers in a union, and the people generally (via the media, protests, etc). Your coworkers are likely to have similar interests to you and are strategically positioned to make demands by virtue of the fact they have their hands on the levers of production. Take your pick.

Re:Activision Blizzard employees walk out over harassment an... by zdragnar on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @11:50PM (#27992605)
Turn to any of those places while hoping to keep your job will make your life a living hell.

Speaking out against a company while not unionized means you'll have your coworkers sympathy, if nothing else. Do the same against a union in the US and you can forget having even that.

Closed shop, one-union-per-company is surely the worst of both worlds. You end up with two managerial classes that you have no power against.