News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by crmrc114 on Monday July 12, 2021 @09:35PM (#27816882)
Mate, your talking about a brass nipple being threaded into a broken plastic part to replace a plastic reducer that was [probably] poorly ultrasonic welded in place. What I see in the article is a common sense repair. Anyone who turns a wrench is laughing at the Tesla fanboy pearl clutching over this. Not an attack on your post btw, just a general statement that every Tesla owner comes out of the cracks in these posts and talks about how magical their cars are and how they are so advanced that no one could possibly understand them. The SAE has programs and industry standards on EV's- every other car manufacturer works with aftermarket shops. Teslas are not made of magic pixie dust and rainbows. The Gen1 tesla roadster was all Toyota parts. Their advanced motor technology is based on reluctance motors invented in the late 1800's. Tossing tcp/ip in your car as a bus [vs much better industrial protocols] and a vfd and calling something groundbreaking does not make it so.

You should have access to the documentation and parts- I and many other gear heads will refuse to drive/own/buy any Tesla car until I can turn a wrench on it.

How would you feel if I told you only Dell/HP should make computers because people make dangerous repairs that will allow hackers to attack systems? It's just as ridiculous when people make claims that fixing a busted fitting is a 'hack'.

imho Tesla Autos are straight-up 'unauthorised bread'.

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by kumarvvr on Monday July 12, 2021 @09:57PM (#27816993)
I agree with the pearl clutching part.

Unless Tesla can state exactly how this fix is inferior to it's original design.

Putting a brass nipple in a plastic pipe is a tried and tested process. The stated pressure is 2 psi, or max 5 psi during testing. 5 psi is about 3.5 meters of water column. So the pressure is equivalent to what you get in your home.

The piping is essentially house plumbing level stuff.

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by userbinator on Monday July 12, 2021 @10:41PM (#27817178)
The piping is essentially house plumbing level stuff.

Much lower pressure, actually - domestic water is supplied closer to 50-60psi.

This fix is only inferior to Tesla because it exposed a design flaw and removed their chance to massively overcharge for a tiny repair.

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by londons_explore on Monday July 12, 2021 @11:31PM (#27817379)
> Much lower pressure, actually - domestic water is supplied closer to 50-60psi.

Cries in England where domestic water can be as low as 10 psi and sometimes won't even reach the top of your house and you have to go downstairs to get water...

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by kumarvvr on Monday July 12, 2021 @11:37PM (#27817402)
You could use a booster pump + accumulator system to get constant pressure.

Pretty cheap and easy to install.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Water-Booster-Pump/s?k=Water+Booste...

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by londons_explore on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @01:04AM (#27817763)
Got one. It's super noisy, the sound vibrates through all the pipes in the house, and sometimes the water can't even get as high as the inlet to the pump.

It would just be better if the utility company supplied a decent pressure. But they don't want to do that because their pipes have thousands of leaks in, and the higher the pressure the more water leaks out.

This is the problem of living in a place where most of the infrastructure is 200 years old.

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by a1369209993 on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @01:54AM (#27817966)
> It's super noisy, the sound vibrates through all the pipes in the house, and sometimes the water can't even get as high as the inlet to the pump.

FWIW, the first bit means the pump is defective/badly designed and you need to get a better one (don't have any actionable advice on where, unfortunately), and the second should be fixable by putting the accumulator tank in the basement/hole in the ground, although YMMV on practicality.

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by bbarnett on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @02:41AM (#27818182)
I am on a well, and have frequent power failures.

I got tired of a small pressure tank, and thus no water without power. So I bought a 50 gallon one.

Now I can take a shower in the morning, even without power.

Not sure of the pump to use here, and I think we're discussing the same thing almost, but pressurizing the holding tank would be pump before vs pump after.

It may provide a nicer experience? Not sure.

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by a1369209993 on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @02:51AM (#27818224)
Ah, yes, I was talking about a catchment tank (before the main pump; so the pump has water to pump) for the low-pressure input water. The pressure tank can be whereever.
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by bbarnett on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @03:14AM (#27818326)
Hmm. So a catchment tank, then even a small pressure tank after, might give a very nice experience.

And without power, the catchment tank would still be pressurized by the incoming water supply at 10psi, a nice fallback.

Now we only need to obtain the contract. Profit!

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by bbarnett on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @03:15AM (#27818333)
Even better, during war, calamity, or zombies, the catchment tank can provide for emergency water!
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by rainbowzootsuit on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @06:40AM (#27819452)
https://product-selection.grundfos.com

Look for the "booster set" to make a selection.

Consider adding in a vibration isolation to the pump connection. This article describes some of the different types. Probably for your application the "hose and braid" would be what I'd be looking for. This is a pretty standard part from a hardware store.

https://www.pumpsandsystems.com/isolation-noise-vibration-hv...

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by mnw21cam on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @07:16AM (#27819650)
That's pretty unusual in England. Most places I have tested have about 3-5 bar of pressure in the water main at the house tap.
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by atatatat on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @12:33PM (#27823028)
Ew.
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by ineedasername on Monday July 12, 2021 @11:24PM (#27817359)
They should also have to state how much the repair would cost if done at the factory where they can actually service the battery pack.

Imagine if other cars were like that: "Sorry, we're not able to service engines so instead of replacing your timing belt for $400 you have to buy a new engine for $6000"

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by dev_tty01 on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @12:11AM (#27817559)
Yes, this is the correct analogy. TSLA is unable to do a reasonable repair so they should bear the extra cost
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by cja on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @03:08AM (#27818304)
You saved one keypress on the e but added at least two on the capital letters
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by kyle-rb on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @04:40AM (#27818762)
If you're using the shift key, then "Tesla" is 6 keypresses whereas "TSLA" is only 4.5 (.5 since you don't technically have to release shift, which you can take advantage of in certain cases [0]).

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpk2tdsPh0A

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by Fantosism on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @03:51AM (#27818533)
Tesla and TSLA both require six keystrokes.
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by addicted on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @10:02AM (#27821089)
If you’re trading then TSLA is far more natural.
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by ineedasername on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @03:45PM (#27825389)
You took 79 key presses to point that out. And here I am taking even more to respond. Clearly commenting is not based purely on a keypress-based economical model.
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by asdff on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @01:50AM (#27817949)
Ahh the apple model. I'm not sure they even have a screwdriver in the back of an apple store any more.
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by imtringued on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @03:01AM (#27818268)
Apple repair would send you a new car while they dismantle the old one for raw materials. They do this as soon as a fender is bent.
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by valesco on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @04:15AM (#27818631)
But only after denying their responsibility for a few years.
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by toomanybeersies on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @08:09AM (#27819956)
I think most Apple products don't even have screws you could use one on these days
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by rini17 on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @06:35AM (#27819416)
How would quote from factory help? I'm pretty sure they would quote disassembly/reassembly work on the battery pack, to replace whole piece of plastic the nipple is part of.
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by ineedasername on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @03:31PM (#27825201)
I'm talking about the fees charged to a someone returning a lease for any damage, which would be less than the cost of a new battery pack. When you return a lease you are obligated for any damage/repairs not caused by normal wear & tear or covered by warranty. Tesla shouldn't charge a lease return customer for such things unnecessarily by replacing a battery pack when a repair is possible. If I return a leased Honda and the exhaust system needs to be repaired with a new muffler, they charge me for the repair, not to replace the whole exhaust system.

In this case, Tesla under-equips service centers so local battery repairs aren't possible. Shipping it back to the factory is necessary. So I can kind of understand if they charge the customer a $1200 freight fee + the cost of the repair itself, but that would still be > $10,000 less than the cost of an entire new battery pack.

Although I think it would be much better if Tesla actually enabled their service centers to do repairs like this. They can get away with it right now since they're more of a luxury/prestige brand and have minimal competition in that EV segment, but if you buy a Cadillac you don't deal with this type of thing:

As other manufacturers are catching up with offerings that compete on the lucury/prestige side of EV's as well as entry level cars. These are manufacturers with more experience in engineering their cars for decentralized service, with customers that expect that: Honda knows that their Civic customers won't buy a comparable EV if a little road debris will either cost them $10k out of pocket or raise their insurance by getting a $10k at-fault claim that raises their insurance costs. Tesla may have a hard time facing such competition without changing their model.

Currently the extra price of an EV makes attracts customers where price is not as much of an issue. As manufacturers significantly larger than Tesla enter the marker with their economies of scale and lower prices, the target customer for an EV will change, as will their expectations.

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by toss1 on Monday July 12, 2021 @10:48PM (#27817212)
Yes, although I think it is about an order of magnitude less of a problem than that.

My house runs at 60psi, +/-3psi, and I think it is pretty bog-standard for US plumbing. It's about 11m from the basement to the attic, and still needs decent pressure upstairs, so, yes, 2-5 psi is silly low pressure to worry about - it's only going to be a slow leak even while running, the only problem is if it runs out, for which I expect Tesla has a sensor.

This repair is not some janky hack, it is more of an upgrade

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by kumarvvr on Monday July 12, 2021 @11:35PM (#27817392)
Wow, 60 psi? Thats like 40 meters of head. So you must be using booster pumps to get the pressure.

Never knew this.

In India, 99.99% of all homes have gravity flow and static pressure, so except for very tall buildings, no one gets pressure more than 5 - 10 psi.

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by wtallis on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @12:21AM (#27817598)
40m doesn't seem at all surprising if you consider the height of a water tower built somewhere with higher elevation than most of the town. My house is 20m lower than the base of either of the two nearest water towers, at least one of which is ~75m tall. A few years ago, the town completed migrating one of the outlying areas with lots of new development into their central pressure zone, resulting in an increase by 45psi in those neighborhoods.

Pressure reducing valves are used anywhere the pressure going into a home is above 80 PSI, and those are a lot more common than homes needing their own booster pumps.

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by kumarvvr on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @12:32AM (#27817654)
Sorry, for got to mention. Most of India does not have direct water connections.

Most homes have borewells, storage tanks and intermitten municipal supply. So there is no direct line from local municipal water tower to homes.

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by RHSeeger on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @12:35AM (#27817663)
> Pressure reducing valves are used anywhere the pressure going into a home is above 80 PSI, and those are a lot more common than homes needing their own booster pumps

My house has one of these, as the pressure would go up to 90 psi sometimes (iirc). Weirdly, my water pressure isn't consistent and can still burst to a "visibly from the tap" higher pressure for a few minutes at a time. I have no idea what causes it.

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by devenson on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @01:13AM (#27817791)
I wonder if it's from water expanding in the hot water heater. That might be pressurizing your system after you send a volume of cold water into the heater after use. Your pressure reducer valve might be acting like a check valve preventing expansion relief into the municipal supply.
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by bbarnett on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @02:51AM (#27818225)
An interesting premise, but I am on a well, have a pressure tank, and the well hose/pump has a check valve.

(Otherwise, water could slowly drain back into the well)

So think of it as a closed system, and it is a common setup, yet I have not seen this behaviour.

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by bitbckt on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @01:03AM (#27817761)
I have to _reduce_ the mains to 55psi to keep my water heater functioning.

Plenty of pressure here (USA) without a pump.

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by kwhitefoot on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @05:53AM (#27819142)
4 bar is the normal house inlet pressure in Norway. In fact in some places the mains pressure is much higher and a pressure reduction valve is fitted. No one uses header tanks.
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by toss1 on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @10:08AM (#27821189)
nah, just one pump. The well is about 518'/158m deep, so the basement +2 stories are kind of a small add-on. I seem to recall most of the bog-standard plumbing bits are rated at 120 or 150 psi. I just put in some new PEX line extensions and that stuff is rated for 160psi at 74F, 100psi at 180F and 80pis at 200F. (BTW, very good experience installing the PEX, as long one takes care to make clean cuts, it's great - I'm about to go test it for vacuum lines at my shop)

Edit: Plus, I've got to say that it is really cool to get perspectives from all over the world here - India, Norway, and a few other places, just in a few comments - just how differently things are done, and what we each take for granted in our environment.

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by alien_ on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @06:49AM (#27819509)
I'd probably compare it to patching tires or installing a replacement tire valve. The pressure in a car tire is around 2.5-3 bar, the bike tires go up to 4-4.5 bar.
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by mulmen on Monday July 12, 2021 @09:46PM (#27816944)
The Gen 1 Tesla Roadster was a license built Lotus Elise. The Lotus Elise had a Toyota motor, the Tesla was all electric, what other Toyota parts are you talking about? Did they also use Toyota accessories?
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by sporf on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @11:00AM (#27821818)
The roadster was a “glider” (body minus powertrain) built on contract by Lotus, but it was not based on the Elise: it shared only a handful of parts with the Elise.

https://www.tesla.com/blog/mythbusters-part-2-tesla-roadster...

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by mulmen on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @03:41PM (#27825331)
This is interesting. I had forgotten all the changes they made. It makes perfect sense, especially for the parts that can't be seen.

I have a hard time saying it isn't "based on" the Elise because they look so similar but it's definitely more different than I suggested in my previous comment.

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by lm28469 on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @04:20AM (#27818661)
> how magical their cars are

They can make fart noises when you honk, find me another car that can do that /s

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by alrs on Monday July 12, 2021 @09:45PM (#27816932)
Tesla stockholders, not Tesla owners, but yes.
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by Larrikin on Monday July 12, 2021 @11:51PM (#27817477)
It took a while to realize irrational defenses of Elon Musk/Tesla and down voting nearly anything negative about either were tied to the large number of people here who have invested significant sums in the stock and not so much a cult of personality.
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by toomanybeersies on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @08:06AM (#27819935)
> How would you feel if I told you only Dell/HP should make computers because people make dangerous repairs that will allow hackers to attack systems?

Yeah, that's pretty much what Apple, the Tesla of computer manufacturers, does.

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by Chris2048 on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @07:16AM (#27819649)
> only Dell/HP should make computers

When was the last time you insured your PC for 3rd-party damage?

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by an_opabinia on Monday July 12, 2021 @11:57PM (#27817499)
On the contrary the biggest critics of the car’s QA problems are the people driving them. It’s the people who don’t own them who say dumb shit.
Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by codeddesign on Monday July 12, 2021 @09:51PM (#27816964)
This is a leased vehicle, meaning that “right to repair” is not associated at all unless you wish to break the lease agreement and owe BIG $$$. All leases are essentially like initial warranties. The dealer has to fix or your warranty goes invalid.

This is a mute argument.

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by ineedasername on Monday July 12, 2021 @11:29PM (#27817375)
You're allowed to bring a leased car to any mechanic for repairs. You don't have to use the dealership, or even OEM parts if others are available. Or at least every lease agreement I've ever read-- and I always read the whole thing-- has never limited this. I'm in the US though, things may differ elsewhere.

Also the correct word it moot, not mute. And neither apply in this situation, so the issue of mute is completely moot.

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by mijamo on Tuesday July 13, 2021 @02:09AM (#27818041)
That is your opinion. Another way to see things is that if you have to pay for repairs you should be able to choose whatever method suits you. If Tesla wants to restrict repairs they can include all repairs in the leasing price.

I would add that leasing is actually considered a temporary transfer of property in many legal systems.

Just like if you rent a flat the owner cannot tell you to use only a certain company to paint it or do some repairs (expect of course the ones that are paid by the owner)

Re:Tesla’s $16k Quote for a $700 Fix Is Why Right to Repair ... by alistairSH on Monday July 12, 2021 @10:00PM (#27817008)
Moot