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Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by lilyball on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @11:39PM (#27757096)
> Users can trade the tokens anonymously 24 hours a day, seven days a week, from anywhere, unhindered by capital controls, “know your client” rules imposed on broker-dealers, and other frictions of the traditional financial system.

I find it really weird how crypto folks keep pretending that financial regulation is an obviously bad thing, as opposed to restrictions put in place in response to real problems

Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by danielmarkbruce on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @11:58PM (#27757194)
Isn't it also weird that crypto enthusiasts assume that you obviously can't trust a central clearing house (or similar mechanism) when they have been working well for hundreds of years? In numerous cases humans trust institutions for certain things, and those institutions are usually strongly incentivized to act honorably, and do so. And when they don't, the court system works pretty well. At least in the countries where the vast majority of economic activity occurs.

These are two premise which... don't seem to hold water?

Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by Kathula on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @04:15AM (#27758666)
This obviously doesn't hold up if we look at the original purpose of the blockchain, ie Bitcoin, to avoid issuers of money to debase said money. Which has in fact happened thousands of times through out history and keeps happening to this very minute.
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by scatters on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @04:39AM (#27758801)
All the evidence shows that a rate of inflation around 2% averaged over the business cycle is beneficial and necessary for the economy. Trying to adopt a deflationary currency is akin to refusing to drink water because people drown in lakes.
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by mojuba on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @05:36AM (#27759182)
> All the evidence shows...

There is no such evidence. There are those who benefit from inflation (and only if it's predictable for them) but the majority of people don't. Unless you define economy as something only the wealthy can benefit from - no, inflation is not good.

Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by clavigne on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @07:17AM (#27759727)
The majority of people have wealth in real estate and generate income from wages, both of which are inflation neutral.

In contrast, the rich are much more likely to have bonds or cash holdings. They are the ones for whom inflation is a real problem. Why else would all this political pressure for a 2% inflation target exist? It's because that's low enough for the rich, not because it's high.

Printing money and redistributing it would severely impact capital holders, like it did in the post WWII boom which created the middle class.

Here is an entire book on this topic :

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_...

Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by mojuba on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @07:38AM (#27759894)
That's a great book, one of my favorites.

The wealth redistribution post-WW2 had more to do with the war itself than inflation though.

So back to the 21st century: what makes you think that those who have excess capital don't invest wisely? Compare that to lack of any excess capital for the majority.

Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by lilyball on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:11AM (#27768655)
Lack of excess capital means inflation doesn't affect them as they have no capital to depreciate, as long as wages keep pace with inflation. The fact that the minimum wage doesn't keep pace with inflation is a huge problem, but the solution is to raise the minimum wage, not to throw out inflation.
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by danielmarkbruce on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @06:29PM (#27766492)
Perhaps I should have said "de-fi" instead of "crypto" ?
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by delaaxe on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @04:14AM (#27758662)
No one would want to use a clearing system if it was possible to do without. Now it is.
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by lxgr on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @06:57AM (#27759596)
Is it, though?

One quite essential feature of a clearinghouse is the ability to correct the books in case of operational errors, in response to court orders etc.

People lose their passwords, get scammed, go bankrupt, die and leave their possessions to their next of kin... It's very hard to achieve the desired/expected outcome for any of these situations on a blockchain.

Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by delaaxe on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @07:12AM (#27759688)
It has worked well enough for trading of physical items with dollar bills for quite some time
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by lxgr on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @07:50AM (#27759993)
Until we've found better alternatives.

Cash doesn't have a built-in paper trail and dispute resolution mechanism, all of which are highly desirable when doing business with unknown/not yet trustworthy entities.

In many (definitely not all!) cases, transaction finality is a bug, not a feature.

Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by delaaxe on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @02:27PM (#27764268)
You make good points on paper, but in practice (in my own life at least) I’ve almost never needed to reverse a transaction where the merchant couldn’t do it himself.

And the one time I had a dispute, Visa claimed that the transaction was out of policy somehow (timeframe, region, etc)

So no, that better alternative doesn’t favor the customer

Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by lxgr on Thursday July 08, 2021 @05:18AM (#27769770)
The existence of a dispute resolution system is usually enough to keep the vast majority of participants in a system honest.

In the case of card payments, merchants incur a fee for every transaction reversed through the card scheme, whereas voluntary refunds are essentially free. They are accordingly incentivized to understand and follow the scheme rules.

> And the one time I had a dispute, Visa claimed that the transaction was out of policy somehow (timeframe, region, etc)

That's unfortunate, and mistakes or seemingly unfair decisions do happen – just like in a public legal system. But you are essentially basing your opinion on a sample size of one.

Practically, some banks just seem to be better (i.e. more consumer friendly) at dispute resolution than others. As an example, in the case of a high profile airline bankruptcy in my country, some banks have proactively reached out to their customers, letting them know they're happy to pursue disputes for them, while others were declining them outright due to a – likely wrong – understanding of scheme rules and bankruptcy law.

Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by danielmarkbruce on Monday July 12, 2021 @02:10AM (#27807571)
Yeah, basically everything you've said is the details of what I meant. Why is this often overlooked? Why is it taken at face value that a central clearinghouse (or similar) is bad??
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by danielmarkbruce on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @06:30PM (#27766498)
I think this is a bad assumption.
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by ique on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @01:33AM (#27757762)
Trusting facebook as the central clearing house for all of our personal data doesn’t seem to have worked out very well.
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by hef19898 on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @03:49AM (#27758490)
Let's call it regulated clearing houses then.
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by herbst on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @06:42AM (#27759508)
Regulated by who tho? There is a natural misstrust for everything involving the U.S. As service provider around here because of the weak privacy laws compared to us (Switzerland) or our neighbors . And yet we heavily depend(ed) on the American led credit card system.
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by danielmarkbruce on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @07:15PM (#27766843)
Not for most people. Most people in the US trust institutions without even realizing/thinking about it. I don't think they care.
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by KirillPanov on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @04:44AM (#27758823)
The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks.
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by carlsborg on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @02:45AM (#27758112)
Neither of the two hold water if you look at how Chinese institutions dealt with the Ant IPO and recently the Didi fiasco and probably many more if you look.
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by liaukovv on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @03:57AM (#27758538)
That seems to be an issue with chinese institutions, not with concept of trust in general.
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by carlsborg on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @04:33AM (#27758768)
"institutions are usually strongly incentivized to act honorably". I am providing a counter example.
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by danielmarkbruce on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @06:31PM (#27766508)
Yep, it's not perfect. It's just pretty darned good is all I'm saying.
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by sneak on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @12:03AM (#27757223)
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/oct/14/wikileaks-says...

Governments can arbitrarily censor legal payments at will, without legal cause.

Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by puranjay on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @06:07AM (#27759351)
You're seeing this from a western, first world perspective.

If you're in a third world country, you likely don't have access to robust, transparent local stock markets. Whatever exchanges might exist tend to be rife with scammy companies, insider trading and poor regulation. If you want to invest in, say, the US stock market, you'd have to jump through a ton of hoops or have a ton of money, essentially locking out all but the wealthiest.

These crypto "stocks" essentially allow anyone living anywhere to "invest" in top-tier stocks like AAPL.

I don't see any reason why you'd buy these crypto stocks if you're living in the US. But if you're living in Somalia or Madagascar? Hell yes.

Again, all the crypto criticism is very myopic and first world. HN needs to step out of that POV to understand the value. Decentralized, global markets don't benefit first world citizens, but they definitely level the playing field for us third worlders.

Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by clavigne on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @08:01AM (#27760097)
So first, investing in DEFI is not exactly simple. If I am reading it properly, you lose 20% in fees at least if you buy bitcoin with Madagascar dollars on paxful,

https://paxful.com/buy/bitcoin/madagascar

How many more hoops do you then have to jump through to acquire fake stocks?

Second, you then have to make sure you avoid pyramid schemes (like OneCoin), rug pulls, exit scams, bad exchanges and bad "smart" contracts (like the Parity bug).

This is not easy even for highly informed tech workers in the Global North. Now if you happen to speak another language (as I do) I recommend you go and Google "how to invest in Defi" or whatever in it. In my case (French), you get just articles after articles that are sponsored content from very dubious sounding wallet and exchanges, especially if you add "Madagascar" or "Congo" or whatever to your search.

So frankly, I think the idea that "crypto markets are great for the Global South" is more of a convenient story.

Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by puranjay on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @08:20AM (#27760257)
Complex onboarding is still better than not having access to the markets at all.

I don't really understand the resistance about this - an imperfect process is always better than no process.

Could things be improved? 100% yes. But that doesn't mean this truly global, permissionless market is somehow a scam.

Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by clavigne on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @08:40AM (#27760409)
I guess it comes down to whether one does the cost benefit analysis for society as a whole or for individuals.

While decentralized permissionless markets can (and have) helped some individuals escape economic restrictions (capital controls, sanctions, etc.) it's not at all clear to me that they have had an overall positive effect, or ever will.

At the end of the day, the rise in the price of bitcoin, scams like AfriCrypt and OneCoin, the new Salvador laws etc are all just new means of extracting capital from the Global South. I'm of the opinion that the benefits to individuals are not balancing the overall societal harms, but I could see how someone with a more individualistic ideology would disagree.

Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by puranjay on Thursday July 08, 2021 @06:09AM (#27770104)
You do have a point there. Crypto does have a massive fraud problem. And I'll admit that so far, it's been a net negative for society.

I'm hoping this will change as the ecosystem matures.

Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by nly on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @07:04PM (#27766764)
Most people in Somalia probably don't have the disposable income to invest in stocks...

The notion of having the money to invest in stocks is made from a position of privilege

Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by herbst on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @06:36AM (#27759484)
From personal Perspective: ALL scam I had as a seller was with credit cards. I always ate the costs by refunding with extra fees. Over Easter I could not transfer money for 5 days!! Because holidays. Also no transfers on weekends. European and American banks refuse to open a private account for me because money laundering laws. Even thought I have an EU passport but just living in Switzerland locks me out of this. And at last the fees. A few years back I paid well over 1000 dollars in banking fees within a year, mostly because I was getting transfers in Euro or dollars and withdraw in Eur on CHF account. Or how microtransactions are essentially non existent on the internet because of fees.

Say what you want, for me personally traditional banking is more of a burden than anything.

Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by barnabee on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @04:29AM (#27758745)
I see three things going on here:

1. The practical: It’s not that regulation is bad but that many existing regulations are bad. They make obviously useful things illegal or impractical, are often worded in such a way they are basically impossible to apply to, for example, peer-to-peer systems. It’s possible to imagine (and indeed we should, and some countries are!) good regulation that is less stifling. (Note also that no regulation of specific financial products is required to make fraud and mis-selling illegal.)

2. The political: Financial regulations as they stand enable a huge surveillance and censorship/control apparatus. Purportedly this helps prevent terrorism etc. but many people do not agree that this is the right trade off. Financial regulations currently also give a handful of countries (and one in particular) a lot of power over the global financial system. Many believe they have too much power. These are political arguments but it is not a completely inexplicable political position for someone to be against financial surveillance and censorship, particularly when it comes to the US and other countries using them to exert power outside their borders. In which case, the financial regulatory environment we currently have is “bad” in that it delivers those things.

3. The countercultural: Cryptography and cryptocurrency are intertwined with countercultural groups and thinking (most obviously, but not exclusively the “cypherpunks”) because they are tools that allow activists, anarchists, subversives, marginalised or oppressed groups, organised crime (which, yes, is a form of counterculture), and others to communicate and operate more effectively and with lower risk. This means those groups are more highly represented in crypto. Obviously they’re likely to think rules that make their lives harder are bad. (This may seem like the “bad group” and maybe you like them being shut out and suppressed, but much social and political progress started as persecuted countercultural movements and subversive ideas.)

So yeah… is financial regulation bad? No. Not always and not necessarily.

Are current financial regulations bad? Yes if you value innovation, have certain political beliefs, or are part of a group that is (intentionally or otherwise) shut out of the system by them.

Let’s try and have better rules!

Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by armada651 on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @11:51PM (#27757145)
Financial regulations are bad, because they criminalize honest fraudsters and scam artists. How are they supposed to make a living in our current system? /s
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by ohgodplsno on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @02:31AM (#27758039)
Ayn Rand libertarians and people with a massive Dunning-Kruger effect who didn't go past economy 101 form a significant part of cryptocurrency proponents.
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by jayd16 on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @12:52AM (#27757511)
Whats worse is many assume the crypto kabuki dance also absolves them from regulation.
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by mmiliauskas on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @11:51PM (#27757147)
Not that it is bad, just useless, money always find the way around them.
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by root_axis on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @12:19AM (#27757317)
The same thing could be said about laws prohibiting theft and murder.
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by lottin on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @04:18AM (#27758675)
No, it doesn't. Obviously you don't have a clue about financial regulation.
Re:Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains by antihero on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @06:47AM (#27759529)
It's because like other libertarian/anarcho-capitalist politics, which seem to be heavily tied in with cryptocurrency, it's based on some idea that every individual is super smart and rational and shouldn't be hindered by the regulations, combined with a fairly righteous mistrust of government and big institutions.

It's a kind of arrogance that they personally don't feel like there's a colossal power asymmetry they need protection from and cryptocurrency proves this.

Perhaps some are clued enough to not get steamrollered by institutions and fraudsters, however they appear to have utter contempt and disregard for people who lack the time or ability or learning speed to protect themselves.