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Re:European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private... by WalterBright on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @11:24PM (#27757001)
> how is a right fundamental?

They are inalienable and bestowed by their Creator. I.e. they are part of the innate nature of human beings.

Governments can either protect those rights or abrogate them - it cannot invent them.

And yes, they stretch back to when humans became human. Though it took a while for people to formally recognize them.

Re:European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private... by dredmorbius on Friday July 09, 2021 @11:53AM (#27784981)
So, "inalienable" I can understand.

"Bestowed by their Creator" starts leaning very heavily on a specific religion's doctrines, and given that there is no religion which is universally adhered to by all persons, dominant in all nations, or indeed acknowleging that "no religion" is the belief of a substantial portion of the population, then regardless of the legacy of the phrase, it's not especially useful in discussion and to me seems to obscure more than it reveals.

Could you choose an alternate phrasing?

Re:European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private... by WalterBright on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @11:30PM (#27757033)
How do we know what those fundamental rights are? By observing what happens to societies that have various formulations of rights. The societies that thrive are closer to the mark than societies that are mired in misery, despair, and death.
Re:European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private... by TedDoesntTalk on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @03:06PM (#27764675)
You neglected to mention any of these fundamental rights. Can you tell me one of them so I can debate you that it’s not fundamental?
Re:European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private... by WalterBright on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @07:49PM (#27767077)
> one

I'll give you three: Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Re:European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private... by TedDoesntTalk on Thursday July 08, 2021 @01:27AM (#27768713)
None of those except life is “part of the innate nature of human beings”.

Death is also part of our innate nature, but you did not mention that one.

Re:European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private... by WalterBright on Thursday July 08, 2021 @12:40PM (#27774464)
When someone enslaves you, then, you have no right to complain about it.
Re:European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private... by Datagenerator on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @01:31AM (#27757752)
The ten commandments as benchmark and foundation applies to many common situations.
Re:European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private... by ben_w on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @04:44AM (#27758822)
There are at least 8 ways to divide up the “ten commandments” passages in Exodus and Deuteronomy into a total of 14 commandments, the Quran has a different set (not being a religious scholar I can’t meaningfully assert how different, given linguistic drift and translation challenges).

Bushido (or the form of it on Wikipedia) has a fairly different and also interesting set.

Anton LaVey (Church of Satan) has an interesting, albeit stereotypically American, eleven.

The philosophers in this list seem to focus on commandments of rationality more than morality, but that’s not something I find hugely surprising: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternatives_to_the_Ten_Comman...

Re:European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private... by dredmorbius on Friday July 09, 2021 @11:55AM (#27785010)
The majority of the commandments are not rights but restrictions, the "thou shall not"s. Even the positively-phrased commandments are obligations ("honour thy father and mother...").

These are not rights.

Re:European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private... by WalterBright on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @04:20AM (#27758692)
The Ten Commandments are not a list of rights. It doesn't even say you have the right to not be a slave.
Re:European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private... by vixen99 on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @03:24AM (#27758348)
I have no rights unless others recognize and at least tacitly agree that they have obligations with respect to those rights.

As the only person left in the universe (after some cataclysm), you'd be left with obligations but no rights. The obligations would include those that arise from within yourself to prevail and try to survive as best you can. Rights? Well, who would be granting those? The innate bit refers to obligations but not rights.

Re:European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private... by readflaggedcomm on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @04:01AM (#27758568)
Natural rights exist even when denied and infringed. Perhaps they are discovered as a consequence of human behavior, rather than molded by a grantor in acts of beneficence or compromise.
Re:European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private... by TedDoesntTalk on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @03:08PM (#27764694)
Can you name a “natural right”?
Re:European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private... by TedDoesntTalk on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @03:08PM (#27764699)
This is beautiful and spot on.
Re:European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private... by WalterBright on Thursday July 08, 2021 @02:06PM (#27775705)
If rights are merely a fabrication of government, then it should be possible to create a communist society that works as well as a free society.

But they don't. Not even close. Something is fundamentally wrong with communist societies.