News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by Wowfunhappy on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:18PM (#27626478)
> Why should anyone ever again trust your company to keep their data safe?

Because if you need a hard drive, your options are pretty much Western Digital, Seagate, and Toshiba, and they've all had their own problems.

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by adolph on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:48PM (#27626645)
The affected model here, known as My Book Live, uses an ethernet cable to connect to a local network. From there, users can remotely access their files and make configuration changes through Western Digital cloud infrastructure. Western Digital discontinued the My Book Live in 2015. The support forum thread was first reported by Bleeping Computer.

The affected product is not a drive but a NAS solution. In terms of being a reasonable consumer my thought process is to evaluate distinctive products differently.

NAS is a cheap computer with attached drives. It’s going to have computer-like failure modes.

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by ghostly_s on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:34PM (#27626872)
Non-technical users don't care about this distinction. The name Western Digital is on both, and that name's brand value is destroyed forever if this indeed turns out to be irreversible. Though they could probably pivot to selling their drives in other's NAS devices without much difficulty if they want to remain in this market.
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by riffraff on Friday June 25, 2021 @12:46AM (#27627232)
Non-technical users don't really buy hard drives individually, they would at most ask their computer-savvy friend or go to a shop who will replace it for them.

I highly doubt the average non-technical user even knows who produced the hard drive they own.

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by pessimizer on Friday June 25, 2021 @02:03AM (#27627604)
These are external drives, and I'd guess the vast majority of external drives are purchased by non-technical users.
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by alpaca128 on Friday June 25, 2021 @03:05AM (#27627929)
> Non-technical users don't really buy hard drives individually

Yes, they do. My dad bought two WD My Book drives by himself as backup drives. He luckily was not aware that those things have an extra software for backups, nor how to install it, but those things are just sold like that targeted to the average user in your average computer store.

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by NikolaNovak on Friday June 25, 2021 @09:26AM (#27630482)
Internal drives, you're right, likely wouldn't be bought by a non-techie alone.

But THIS affected type of drive is specifically marketed to a very non-technical user, and I can certainly confirm my non-technical friends and family have bought products in this segment independently, whereas my techie friends steer clear.

It's a NAS that's made to look like a drive. My techie friends would never buy it - they'd get Synology/QNAP, or do their own over-complicated time-consuming solution (slight editorial opinion there ;), or use cloud backup, or some combo. But my dad, mother in law, and other relatives have products like this, and have purchased them on their own. In fact, I think when asked, most techies would in fact go against the notion of buying cheap but internet-exposed storage device for a non-technical friend :O

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by belval on Friday June 25, 2021 @10:06AM (#27630921)
Your slight editorial opinion reminded me of this HN hot-take from the DropBox announcement:

> For a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself quite trivially by getting an FTP account, mounting it locally with curlftpfs, and then using SVN or CVS on the mounted filesystem. From Windows or Mac, this FTP account could be accessed through built-in software.

Source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by kzrdude on Friday June 25, 2021 @06:01AM (#27628880)
This is how non-technical users learn. How about.. don't have an internet connected drive? That's what I'll tell my family.
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by SOMA_BOFH on Friday June 25, 2021 @12:58AM (#27627289)
they said the same thing about tylenol in 1982.
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by pessimizer on Friday June 25, 2021 @02:07AM (#27627629)
Somebody actually poisoned Tylenol. People realize that all the food they eat could have been poisoned in the grocery store. There's no easy mapping to "every external hard drive manufacturer could stop updating their products and your data could spontaneously delete itself."
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by adolph on Friday June 25, 2021 @09:48AM (#27630721)
True, a small computer running an Internet connected general purpose operating system should have a prominently labeled expiration date of some short time after the last patch. Use after that date is not recommended and potentially dangerous. WD sold something that looked like a toaster to the consumer but was actually a lump of cheese.
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by Y_Y on Friday June 25, 2021 @04:26AM (#27628369)
There have been incidents of (other manufacturers') hard drives shipping with pre-installed malware though [e.g. 0]. I think that's a good analogue for Tylenol.

[0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/malware-found-on-new-hard-driv...

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by Wowfunhappy on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:57PM (#27626693)
Well, the GP said "why should anyone ever again trust [Western Digital] to keep their data safe?" Using a Western Digital hard drive, internet connected or not, very much means trusting a WD product with your data.

But I might be reading too literally. And personally, I do intend to continue purchasing Western Digital hard drives, just nothing internet connected, because I agree they're different products with different risks.

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by edgyquant on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:09PM (#27626742)
From the quote the user you replied to posted it looks as though this is a product that was discontinued six years ago.
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by Angostura on Friday June 25, 2021 @12:36AM (#27627190)
I suspect they still produce NAS devices though. I wouldn’t buy one
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by mnw21cam on Friday June 25, 2021 @04:39AM (#27628416)
A NAS isn't actually distinct from a plain drive in that particular way. A plain SATA hard drive is a cheap computer with some attached hardware, just like a NAS. Literally, there's probably at least one ARM CPU core in there controlling everything and communicating over the link to your main computer.

The difference is the protocol that goes over the link. In a NAS, it's SMB/NFS access to files over ethernet/wifi, and for a SATA drive it is the SATA command set accessing blocks. The difference is small.

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by incrudible on Friday June 25, 2021 @04:52AM (#27628475)
> The difference is small.

One of these things is talking to the internet on its own accord. The other is not. Small difference, huge implications.

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by rswail on Friday June 25, 2021 @05:19AM (#27628635)
The fault here is because WD's backend/"cloud infrastructure" got hacked. That's on them.
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by tomnipotent on Friday June 25, 2021 @02:19AM (#27627688)
> Because if you need a hard drive

This is the third such major scandal from WD in as many years. First, selling SMR drives as CMR. Second, selling 7200RPM drives as 5400RPM. Now this. They've lost a lot of credibility, and I don't see any of the other manufacturers having issues rivaling WD.

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by roblabla on Friday June 25, 2021 @03:03AM (#27627922)
> selling 7200RPM drives as 5400RPM

I suppose you mean the other way around? Otherwise, what's the problem with selling a higher RPM device as a lower one? Isn't higher RPM better? (Genuine question, I don't know much about HDD).

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by dspillett on Friday June 25, 2021 @06:30AM (#27629015)
The faster devices generally vibrate more and give off more heat, which might make them unsuitable for mass storage (i.e. in a NAS box or other multi-drive arrangement). The difference might technically even invalidate warranties.

They also draw more power, which might mean they simply don't work properly in some low-power devices, or mean that any UPS someone might have one connected to will not last as long as they expect during a power interruption.

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by tomnipotent on Friday June 25, 2021 @03:29AM (#27628065)
> Isn't higher RPM better

WD Red is marketed for NAS/storage, where it's not uncommon to have 4/8/12/16 drives in the same chassis where noise/heat becomes a very different problem. It turns out that the drives generated the same heat and consumed the same power as 7200RPM drives, while the data sheets were outright lies and BS. WD decided on double down on the BS for several months, and only recently released new SKUs where the specs matched the marketing.

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by numpad0 on Friday June 25, 2021 @04:15AM (#27628307)
It’s correct, and higher is better, 7K2 is faster and often longer lasting somehow. Generally better built. Downsides are noise, power draw and thermal.

They sourced drives from former HGST under WD but 5K4 we’re not available so marketing rebadged 7K2 as “5400rpm-class” and lucky buyers were hit with better performances.

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by tomnipotent on Friday June 25, 2021 @06:00PM (#27636791)
> lucky buyers were hit with better performances

Sort of. The WD Red drives outperformed actual 5400 drives but underperformed other 7200 drives by a large margin (180MB/s vs. 230MB/s), while not necessarily offering heat or noise benefits that matched. My current 8x8TB WD Red Unraid build will likely be the last WD drives I buy for a long time.

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by sascha_sl on Friday June 25, 2021 @03:10AM (#27627954)
No, right way around.

Less noise and usually higher durability.

WD cut down the number of real SKUs and then slowed down a 7200 RPM drive in firmware calling them "5400rpm class"

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by mastazi on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:54PM (#27626668)
The issue at hand is a NAS firmware problem, not a HD drive issue.

There are quite a few other brands offering NAS devices e.g. Synology, QNAP, Thecus, Pegasus and more.

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by Scoundreller on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:44PM (#27626936)
Public-facing Synology devices got hit in the past too, but they just used it to mine Litecoin. I think someone calculated it and figured out that it cost something like $400k in electricity to mine $100k of coins on the boxes.

Aha! It was $600k in dogecoin in 2014

https://www.pcworld.com/article/2364120/hacked-synology-nas-...

That’s worth around $125m today (assuming straight hodling).

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by ksec on Friday June 25, 2021 @01:29AM (#27627438)
And of course Qnap in the recent month. It keeps repeating, and keeps happening, and some ( me ) keep ranting about it and no one / company is doing anything much with it.

Majority of people buy NAS only use it to access their Data within their internal network. But somehow they all include Internet / Cloud features as upsell.

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by cfn on Friday June 25, 2021 @03:38AM (#27628123)
Can you give a link to what is happening with QNAP? I have one and now I am worried.
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by criddell on Friday June 25, 2021 @10:12AM (#27630992)
They had hard coded credentials in a service that lots of people inadvertently exposed to the internet.

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/qnap-removes-...

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by fistynuts on Friday June 25, 2021 @01:58AM (#27627576)
To be fair to Qnap, they're actively patching these issues as they come up.

Of course the issues shouldn't be there in the first place, but it's not like they're ignoring the problem.

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by noja on Friday June 25, 2021 @02:29AM (#27627735)
> To be fair to Qnap, they're actively patching these issues as they come up.

What? They backdoored every device.

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by ValentineC on Friday June 25, 2021 @01:24AM (#27627406)
Synology has a large enough following to get its own ransomware attack (in July 2019) too:

https://www.synology.com/en-us/company/news/article/2019July...

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by R0b0t1 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:26PM (#27626527)
Seagate mitigated their most famous problems. They were a good bargain buy for a while after that as they tried to rebuild their brand. Issue is now they're too proud of themselves, you're better off buying something else. They might still be the cheapest per GB for certain sizes, just look at the backblaze stats.
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by cortesoft on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:15PM (#27626773)
What does "too proud of themselves" mean?
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by broknbottle on Friday June 25, 2021 @12:36AM (#27627187)
Seagate Exos drives are solid. All of HDD drives intended for consumers are 1 year warranty bottom of the barrel shit
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by chris11 on Friday June 25, 2021 @04:40AM (#27628419)
One option is shucking a high capacity external. Those are more likely to be high quality. Some are rebranded enterprise drives. But the hd model isn't guaranteed, and warranty support might be iffy.
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by mapt on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:42PM (#27626920)
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by em-bee on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:30PM (#27626548)
for my raid i try to buy disks from different manufacturers. with the limited selection this is extremely hard. i have to fall back to different models from the same manufacturer and even buying the same model from different shops to get at least disks from a different batch.
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by willis936 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:34PM (#27626569)
You forget HGST. They have a longer track record of reliable models than any other manufacturer, even taking the death star into account.
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by manigandham on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:47PM (#27626641)
HGST was acquired by WD in 2012 and stopped being a brand altogether in 2018.
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by polpo on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:28PM (#27626835)
As a part of the sale of HGST to WD, Toshiba got assets to produce 3.5” hard drives from HGST. I’d consider them the true heirs of HGST, and their good reliability as shown in Backblaze’s studies bear that out.
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by ksec on Friday June 25, 2021 @01:35AM (#27627461)
> stopped being a brand altogether in 2018.

Unless WD changed their mind again, HGST HDD is still available as of 2021 because customer has been demanding the exact same HDD with exact same model number from the exact same plant. Basically they want to know it is the same old HGST and not WD. And some ( if not most ) of them are large, enterprise customers. So they brought it back in ~2019 (without an announcement).

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by numpad0 on Friday June 25, 2021 @03:09AM (#27627948)
That’s the official stance from WD public relations but HGST labeled drives are still being manufactured.
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by linsomniac on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:59PM (#27626700)
A sad, sad day. :-/
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by Wowfunhappy on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:35PM (#27626578)
HGST was bought by Western Digital.
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by temp8964 on Friday June 25, 2021 @12:06AM (#27627041)
Aren't HGST drives also the most expensive ones?
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by ericd on Friday June 25, 2021 @10:19PM (#27638466)
Is your data's integrity worth tens of dollars?
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by ExtraE on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:35PM (#27626581)
I’m confused by the edit- WD is Western Digital, no?
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by Wowfunhappy on Thursday June 24, 2021 @10:37PM (#27626589)
Sorry, you caught me before my newer edit. My brain was doing something stupid. (And I need to go to bed.)

Edit: To be clear, it was my mistake, my post made no sense before I fixed it. The parent doesn't deserve the downvotes.

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by 3np on Friday June 25, 2021 @04:35AM (#27628399)
What did Toshiba do? I find them the most trustable in this range.

(Not that I would put anything like this past them; Japanese companies are notorious for leaving ancient buggy software at EoL)

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by achow on Thursday June 24, 2021 @11:41PM (#27626918)
And Samsung.

Using 500GB SSD for many years as an external backup.

Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by Wowfunhappy on Friday June 25, 2021 @12:41AM (#27627210)
Samsung only makes SSD's though, right? It's fine if you don't have that much data, but past a certain size you're paying a lot extra.
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by flyinghamster on Friday June 25, 2021 @08:26AM (#27629872)
They used to make hard drives years ago, and I still have three old 1.5 TB units kicking around that I can't seem to throw out, because they won't die.
Re:WD My Book users wake up to find their data deleted by tomcooks on Friday June 25, 2021 @02:16AM (#27627676)
The problem is the IoT not the drive