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Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by zozbot234 on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @08:30AM (#27603681)
> while also chronically underfunding schools

Schools are not underfunded in the U.S., they waste money. Big difference.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by larrymyers on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @08:37AM (#27603762)
For what we expect of schools they are underfunded. Schools provide before and after care outside of normal hours, they provide all 3 meals to many students. Counseling, social services, health care ... it's not just teachers in the classroom.

Now, if the US wanted to actually fix poverty and inequality dealing with the symptoms wouldn't roll down to the schools to deal with.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by Mary-Jane on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @10:23AM (#27604879)
Negatory. Us shovels more funding per student into its public schools than almost any other country. That funding is spend poorly, mostly on administrative functions that no doubt demonstrate in great detail how great each school is.

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by Retric on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @12:41PM (#27606539)
Comparing countries by PPP doesn’t account for the cost of education between countries. A collage educated worker in Mexico is much cheaper than a collage educated worker in Luxembourg even accounting for PPP.

In fact if you compare countries by Median household income PPP. You find a familiar ordering, Luxembourg 52,493, Norway 51,489, Sweden 50,514, Australia 46,555, Denmark 44,360, United States 43,585. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

Differences in scope between each country such as what pays for school lunch programs explains much of the difference.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by flavius29663 on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:36PM (#27607395)
But still, there isn't a lack of funding in the US, not when you compare it with every other developed country. Switzerland is not a cheaper country than the US, far from that. Still, being a teacher there is a highly respected profession, and a high school teacher can make 7-8000 per month (last time I spoke with a Swiss). They still pay less per student than the US.

If you ask me, I'm going to guess that building large football practice fields with nigh lighting, driving buses on all the hills twice a day, paying 200k to non-teachers, these things all add up.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by rejectedandsad on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @12:36PM (#27606458)
Admin bloat is very real but as the wealthiest country it makes sense we spend more on public education because we spend more on nearly everything.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by dzdt on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @08:45AM (#27603834)
Exactly. The biggest problem with US schools is poverty. It isn't anything directly to do with the school system, but the school system is tasked with "leaving no child behind" when the thing holding many children back is poverty of their families.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by Ensorceled on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @08:41AM (#27603798)
We do all of that in Canada, for 3K per student less AND get much better results (at least on average).
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by ipaddr on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @08:47AM (#27603854)
Why do you think Canada gets a better results?
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by Ensorceled on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @09:12AM (#27604159)
To be clear, the results aren't great. We pay teachers more, we have pretty much no focus on elite athletics, less political mucking around in the actual education process.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by connectsnk on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @08:48AM (#27603877)
Probably can be attributed to huge asian and south asian immigrant population who put a very big emphasis on education in their families
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by nick__m on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @06:01PM (#27611049)
Your theory doesn't explain Quebec scoring so high¹ in math in the 2018 PISA² test.

https://www.schoolofpublicpolicy.sk.ca/research/publications...

https://www.oecd.org/pisa/PISA-results_ENGLISH.png

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by Ensorceled on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @08:36AM (#27603743)
As with health care, the US spends near the top[1] per student and ranks among the worst for results.

[1] https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by dlp211 on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @04:01PM (#27609396)
The fundamental problem with these types of analysis is that it is the aggregate and average of a large mostly sparse country with a large population. Between Federalism, local & state politics, wealth concentration, and geographic constraint leads to some interesting and costly quirks to our school systems.

It turns out that wealthy public school districts are extremely good and compete at the top of the world stage, and poor school districts are really, really, terrible and underperform on the world stage by a substantial margin.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by esyir on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:23AM (#27613967)
Could you support this with data of your own? I know that applies to university level education, but I've never seen the data for lower levels of education.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by bradleyjg on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @08:41AM (#27603806)
But we are top of the charts in percent overhead. USA! USA!
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by ARandumGuy on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:00PM (#27606817)
Funding in U.S. schools is super unequal. Most school funding in the U.S. comes from local property tax. But if a district has a lot of poverty, then revenue from property tax is low. That means low funding for the local school, which lowers the quality of education for students, which makes it harder for the students to get out of poverty, which keeps the district's poverty level high. It's a self reinforcing cycle, which need to be fundamentally re-structured.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by treis on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:14PM (#27607052)
>Most school funding in the U.S. comes from local property tax. But if a district has a lot of poverty, then revenue from property tax is low

This is a common myth but it's not backed up by the numbers. Poverty is (mostly) concentrated in inner cities and those inner cities typically contain large office builds which pay lots of real estate taxes but send no kids to schools. If you look around different states the highest per pupil spending is by far in the cities. As an example, Atlanta public schools spends $15k per pupil while the surrounding suburban counties are 8-10k per pupil.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by mnowicki on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:35PM (#27608276)
that's interesting to hear, and I'll have to take your word on it for now, but I'm curious why(unless things have significantly changed in the past 6-7 years) inner-city schools are still horrendously bad. I've experienced schools in both the worst parts of Philadelphia as well as in middle-class suburbs of Philly, and the contrast is even more exaggerated than they make it seem on TV shows/movies that depict these types of schools.

Obviously the students who are raised in these high-crime areas and surrounded by a community that's significantly harsher are going to be harder for teachers to manage, and I do think this is a very big part of it, but there are some things that clearly aren't related to that(such as equipment and the quality/quantity of staff)

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by treis on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:58PM (#27608559)
What we think of as school quality is mostly the quality of the students. Richer districts have, on average, students of high SES with parents that are more willing & able to help their kids succeed in school. Poorer districts have, on average, lower SES kids with terrible living situations and parents.

Having disruptive kids also makes educating them much more expensive. Discipline issues chew up a lot of resources and disrupt learning for other students. So you have to spend more to provide equal quality instruction.

And, of course, just because they spend more money doesn't mean they spend it on things that help educating students.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by esyir on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:22AM (#27613960)
Perhaps the people should provide the teachers /school with more ways to punish disruption. Let schools expel and suspend disruptive students. Don't let bad actors hurt the rest. But from what I've heard, they do the opposite.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by moduspol on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:24PM (#27608870)
> I'm curious why [...] inner-city schools are still horrendously bad.

I encourage you to follow this train of thought. It may bring into question some fundamental assumptions in one's world view.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by mcguire on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @04:41PM (#27610036)
"Poverty is (mostly) concentrated in inner cities..."

False. (https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/interactive/20...)

Atlanta Public Schools, per student: $16,402, $8,923 instructional

Fulton County Schools, $11,619, $7,021 instructional

Buford City Schools, $11,299, $7,271 instructional

Douglas County, $10,271, $6,577 instructional

Clayton County, $10,472, $6,379 instructional

State Charter Schools- Georgia Cyber Academy, $6,294, $5,224 instructional

This is fun! https://nces.ed.gov/ccd/schoolmap/

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by treis on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @05:19PM (#27610521)
>False.(https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/interactive/20...)

You're looking at county levels. If you look at the parts of cities with poor schools they will have nearly 100% of their students in poverty.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by xyzzyz on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:05PM (#27606915)
This might have been true at some point in the past, but it is very much false now, and has been false for at least a decade or two. If local property tax revenues are low, the shortfall is made up for with state and federal funds. Just look at the data: worst performing urban schools often have more funding than better performing ones in rural areas or in smaller towns. If you don’t believe me, just show me a few examples, it shouldn’t be too hard to come up with, if the pattern is as strong and casually important as you suggest it is.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by mcguire on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @04:50PM (#27610161)
"Does School Spending Matter? The New Literature on an Old Question" (https://works.bepress.com/c_kirabo_jackson/38/)

"All but one of the several multi-state studies find a strong link between spending and outcomes –indicating that money matters on average. Importantly, this is true across studies that use different data-sets, examine different time periods, rely on different sources of variation, and employ different statistical techniques. While one can poke holes in each individual study, the robustness of the patterns across a variety of settings is compelling evidence of a real positive causal relationship between increased school spending and student outcomes on average. However, an examination of single-state studies suggests that,on average, money matters, but that this is not always so in all settings or in all contexts."

Also see "It’s not nothing: The role of money in improving education" (https://www.brookings.edu/research/its-not-nothing-the-role-...) and "How Money Matters for Schools" (https://learningpolicyinstitute.org/product/how-money-matter...).

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by ARandumGuy on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:26PM (#27607246)
The amount of local funding for public education varies wildly from state to state. In New Mexico in 2018, only 15% of public school revenue came from local sources. However, during the same year in Nebraska, that number is 53%.

So yes, in some states differences in local property tax has a minimal effect on school funding. But in other states, the issue is still a significant issue.

Source: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cma?tid=4

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by xyzzyz on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:37PM (#27607407)
And in Nebraska, can you find a strong correlation between funding levels and schools performance? I asked you for examples, can you find any?

Importantly, if in many states the school funding is equalized, and yet we still have wide difference in performance between good and bad schools, why would anyone expect that changing funding structure in Nebraska would change school outcomes in a significant way? If school funding levels in Michigan are similar across the board, with worse performing schools getting more, not less funding than better performing ones, clearly something else than funding is responsible for these disparities, isnt it? Lastly, as funding disparities have been equalized in many places in past decades, have we ever observed lower funded schools catch up to better funded ones?

The school funding differences are quite obviously not responsible for disparities in school outcomes, and it is beyond clear to me that the entire goal of this narrative is not to improve schools, but instead to funnel more tax funds to politically allied groups, using children as a cover.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by robocat on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:05PM (#27607813)
> can you find a strong correlation between funding levels and schools performance

In New Zealand there is a negative correlation.

The performance of schools in New Zealand is very strongly correlated with “the decile” which is how wealthy the area where the school is located (i.e. how well off the parents are correlates with how well their children do academically).

The schools in areas of poverty get more state funding, but the results at those schools are very poor, because the parents are poor, and poor parents often cause poor students (edit: cause is the wrong word here, sorry).

Our government otherwise funds schools per student at a fairly flat per capita rate, so there is not the variation in school funding (ignoring private schools) like that which occurs in the US.

I am just pointing out that in New Zealand the main correlation for average student ability is their home, not their school.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by xyzzyz on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:36PM (#27609025)
> I am just pointing out that in New Zealand the main correlation for average student ability is their home, not their school.

Right. Whatever the casual mechanism is at play, increasing funding of schools is not going to make much of a difference for the kids -- it will, though, for employees of the school systems.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by coryrc on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:15PM (#27607068)
To supplant your point:

Detroit Public Schools per-pupil funding: $15,891

Average Michigan per-pupil funding: $13,457

https://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/underfunded-detr...

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by bluGill on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:08PM (#27606963)
Maybe, but I went to one of the worst funded schools in my state (MN at the time) and got a great education. We were a rural area with only a small tax base, but everyone cared that we got a good education and so the money was carefully spent to give us a good education with the limited money. In fact as a kid I commented that it didn't seem like we had poor funding as we had a lot of activities and great education. Then it was explained that the historical mining areas of the state had a much better tax base, as did the inner city schools (they got the taxes from expensive downtown properties), and even suburban districts had industrial areas to tax.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by dragonwriter on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:47PM (#27607573)
> Schools are not underfunded in the U.S

Most first world countries are well above the US’s 5% GDP in public education expenditures; schools absolutely are underfunded in the US.

It may also be unusually poorly administered, but this isn't like healthcare where US public spending is on par, as a share of GDP, with other developed countries despite doing far less with it.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by aeternum on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:56PM (#27607687)
We're also still using the same educational model we were in the 1700s. We know a lot more about learning now, and that model makes no sense.

We know young kids learn through play yet we continually force them to learn through the equivalent of lectures.

For older students that can learn through lectures, we insist on giving in-person lectures. This means that 99.9% of students are taught by sub-par lecturers. Highschool and college students are foolish to attend lectures person. Instead they should just watch the best in the world on opencourseware/youtube.

Hands-on lab experience and group work is useful and difficult in a remote setting but a very small amount of HS/college time is spent on that. I'd argue pretty much all in-person HS/college time should be spent on that.

We still attempt to teach the mechanics / tools first, like math and calc before the motivation. We do this even though we know that the human brain generally ignores information without utility. We should instead provide students a long-term goal they are interested in and introduce math / calc / physics as a means to achieve that goal.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by UncleOxidant on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:08PM (#27608671)
I tend to think they're underfunded and poorly administered with a lot of overhead.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by whatshisface on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:55PM (#27607679)
I am not sure if percent GDP the right metric to use, although perhaps dollars per student does not adjust for cost of living differences.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by marcinzm on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @08:36AM (#27603741)
Yup, from what I can tell the US has one of the highest per student spending amounts for primary and secondary schools.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by paulpauper on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @12:43PM (#27606562)
That can be explained in part by compulsory schooling and individual education programs
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by kingsuper20 on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @08:38AM (#27603772)
It's remarkable how much the per capita, inflation corrected cost per pupil in California has gone up in 50 years.

My own elementary school (not in CA), has double the amount of staff with the same pupil head count, plus I don't doubt that the salaries have risen faster than inflation and/or GDP improvements. OTOH, teachers were famously poorly paid in days of yore.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by j_walter on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @12:38PM (#27606487)
You say paid poorly, but exactly how poorly? Usually the upfront pay was offset by a good pension, medical benefits and having the summer months off was a huge benefit.

Teachers around here now make the average staring salary for a Bachelors Degree and still get the good benefits and time off.

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by subsubzero on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:38PM (#27607418)
I have a friend that was a teacher in palo alto at a public school, she taught special ed and was making 86k, not exactly poor but I could imagine a teacher at middle school or high school making more.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by dragonwriter on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:44PM (#27607533)
>>It's remarkable how much the per capita, inflation corrected cost per pupil in California has gone up in 50 years.

Is that adjusted for national or local price levels?

Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by John23832 on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @08:35AM (#27603730)
Sure. I can agree with that. The point being that, with the current schooling infrastructure, the amount of money needed to do what needs to be done isn't there.
Re:Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? by marcinzm on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @08:37AM (#27603751)
No amount of money will fix a broken system from the inside since the money will go to those who broke the system in the first place.