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Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by Cthulhu_ on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @03:09AM (#27351469)
I'm confident we'll see memory-on-chip within the next few years. Actually isn't that already the case for mobile CPU's?
Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by baybal2 on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @03:29AM (#27351589)
Main memory, if you mean DRAM, no.

DRAM is incompatible with the logic family used in CPU making, though attempts were numerous at trying to work around that. Every few years, there are somebody coming with claims of passable CMOS+DRAM tech, but none got adoption so far.

Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by MayeulC on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @09:39AM (#27354272)
I work on ferroelectric hafnium, which looks promising with regards to CMOS compatibility. It's non-volatile, though I guess you could also use it like DRAM. Endurance is an issue for now though (it's approaching RAM use-cases, but not SRAM yet).

As you said, I'm not sure about the density part. Unless it's completely done in BEOL, I don't see designers trade precious chip real estate for memory (unless pin or power-limited, of course).

Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by baybal2 on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @11:17AM (#27355726)
Hafnium? Is it something FRAM related?

What do you think on FRAM vs. next generation MRAM?

Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by MayeulC on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @05:21PM (#27361484)
I don't know much about STT-MRAM, so I'll avoid making a fool of myself. Looking more into the details is on my TODO. Look at the datasheets and make your choice, as usual. I am not sure how the situation will evolve on either side, my understanding is that FRAM could be more energy-efficient.

Well, hafnium can be used to make ferroelectric crystals, that are necessary for ferroelectric memories (FRAM). The most used ferroelectric material is PZT, which has lead, and is a nightmare for CMOS compatibility due to contamination issues, and temperatures.

It's a bit light on the details, but maybe I should point you towards the video that explains our project: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8tL-nN7G-A

The most exciting part might not be the performance (though it looks good), but the way ferroelectrics can be used for new circuits (variable treshold transistors thanks to FeFETs). Hafnium has been used in gate oxides for a few years now so it's quite compatible with CMOS.

Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by my123 on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @03:43AM (#27351656)
It is not actually incompatible within the same die, IBM z15 uses eDRAM for the L1 caches even.
Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by baybal2 on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @03:47AM (#27351683)
Not L1, but L2 and on.

A very curious case, and a very clever hackery with a custom SOI process. It's still very, very far from coming to mainstream chips.

Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by jahnu on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @06:45AM (#27352685)
It says L1 here

"Both it and all levels of cache in the main processor from level 1 use eDRAM, instead of the traditionally used SRAM."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_z15_(microprocessor)

Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by baybal2 on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @06:55AM (#27352753)
Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by jahnu on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @09:33AM (#27354160)
IBM's technical guide also says it's eDRAM

https://www.redbooks.ibm.com/redbooks/pdfs/sg248851.pdf

Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by rbanffy on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @01:41PM (#27358356)
It's almost sad to see the x86s compared to the IBM mainframes...
Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by amelius on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @01:49PM (#27358490)
What is the main hurdle? Why are these processes incompatible?
Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by ksec on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @04:52PM (#27361114)
Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by geertj on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @06:19AM (#27352533)
Genuinely curious, could you say why logic and dram on the same chip are incompatible?
Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by baybal2 on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @06:52AM (#27352734)
For practical considerations, both DRAM, and CMOS need a lot of steps, and both of them are already dialled closed to thermal limits of materials.

So if you just first make CMOS, and leave empty space nearby protected by something to do DRAM later, it will be very hard to fit into the tiny remaining thermal budget past which CMOS devices will turn into schmoo.

Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by colejohnson66 on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @08:51AM (#27353640)
Basically, at the low nanometer range,[a] if you want on-chip DRAM, it’d be a separate die (“chiplet”) connected by the substrate

[a]: what’s the upper limit? As in, when does it not work anymore? For example, would it work at 100+ nm?

Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by baybal2 on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @09:21AM (#27353978)
I am not a specialist, but I think I can guess.

First, you need a wafer on which you can make a capacitor, which already means an SOI process, and SOI wafers.

The lowest nodes with SOI available to mortals are 40nm, and 14nm on GlobalFoundries, but god knows how one gets GloFo to collaborate on that.

Then, you need CMOS device which has enough thermal budget to survive both own, and DRAM creation.

Third, I think on-die DRAM will only make sense when it wins over SRAM. DRAM cells cannot physically go smaller than the minimal size of a trench capacitor. I believe at 5-7nm nodes, 6T SRAM will already be smaller than a reasonably fast eDRAM per area.

We know that IBM's Z15 is a 14nm FinFet chip, and it has DRAM on board, with them probably somehow doing DRAM first.

Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by adwn on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @06:36AM (#27352624)
That's because high-density logic and high-density DRAM require very different steps during wafer fabrication.
Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by kllrnohj on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @09:52AM (#27354479)
> I'm confident we'll see memory-on-chip within the next few years.

Depending on what you mean by "memory-on-chip" we've already seen this with AMD's Fiji (2015) & Vega (2017) line of GPUs which used on-package memory in the form of HBM/HBM2 memory ( https://www.anandtech.com/show/9390/the-amd-radeon-r9-fury-x... and https://www.anandtech.com/show/11717/the-amd-radeon-rx-vega-... ).

It was incredibly fast, but also very expensive and limiting in SKU configurations. The resulting 16GB SKU for the Vega 56/64, for example, made basically nobody happy. It was too much for gamers, who then didn't want to pay money for something that didn't help, and it wasn't enough for the professional crowd, who were getting used to 24GB offerings from Nvidia.

> Actually isn't that already the case for mobile CPU's?

Nope. They "just" replace the slot with solder more or less. It's still externally packaged DRAM modules.

Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by klodolph on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @02:21PM (#27359018)
Why are you confident about this? Semiconductor processes are complicated for a ton of reasons, and a process which is optimized for making main memory (DRAM) has some differences from a process optimized for making logic (CPU), and flash memory is different still.

I see AMD's effort as a way to sidestep the whole problem of putting memory and CPU on the same chip, by making separate chips and stacking them. It makes sense. You can get CPU packages with CPU + DRAM + Flash, but these are separate chips which are wired together inside the package.

E.g.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Package_on_a_package

The whole point of these systems is to avoid putting memory and CPU (and flash) on the same chip. AMD's version is smaller & more integrated than package-on-package but it still achieves the same goal: multiple chips.

Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by simias on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @06:30AM (#27352587)
You can find stacked chips pretty commonly, but it's effectively two chips within a single package.
Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by Sparkyte on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @02:58PM (#27359587)
Actually already a thing but production of the memory isn't easy so not as cost effective yet. HBM is used on the VEGA graphics. GPUs are a type of processor.
Re:AMD Demonstrates Stacked 3D V-Cache Technology: 192 MB at... by mehrdada on Tuesday June 01, 2021 @03:55PM (#27360373)
Mobile SoCs like A14 have a Package-on-Package architecture with DRAM die stacked on top of CPU, but it is not the same die.