News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The end of the pandemic is near by tluyben2 on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @10:54AM (#27291277)
I don't know anymore what the latest is (it changes from yourself, others, both, none in the newspapers here), but doesn't the person wearing the mask protect others, not themselves by wearing it?
Re:The end of the pandemic is near by graeme on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:06AM (#27291462)
No that was a scientifically incorrect meme spread by health authorities (which historically have been anti mask pre pandemic) and people motivated by altruism.

Studies are clear though. This one found non-N95 masks filter 20-80% of particles. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...

It defies common sense to say that won’t help the wearer! We haven’t done challenge trials, but the burden of proof is on those saying that a material covering the face and which filters out 20-80% of virus sized particles somehow won’t stop viral infections.

Re:The end of the pandemic is near by Kranar on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @12:26PM (#27292531)
It does not at all defy common sense. For example if you gave me a shield that deflected 80% of bullets, it would not defy common sense to feel that shield was not effective at protecting me from someone with a machine gun.

The infectious dose of SARS-CoV-2 is as low as 10 viral particles and a single cough can release 123,000 viral particles.

If I shot 123,000 bullets at you, would you be happy with a shield that protected you from 80% of them?

At any rate, masks have proven to be incredibly effective, but the truth is that we don't know exactly how... common sense has not been particularly informative in understanding the spread of this virus.

Re:The end of the pandemic is near by graeme on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @01:42PM (#27293665)
You don’t see 100% infection rates when a positive person is in a a room. Reducing the amount of particles inhaled in such circumstances must be of use.

You would on the other hand expect a 100% fatality rate if you fired 123,000 bullets at each person in a room. So your analogy is faulty.

Re:The end of the pandemic is near by chrismcb on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:01PM (#27298875)
I hear this all the time "masks have proven to be incredibly effective" Have they? Data didn't really bear that. And there are tons of studies that day, for the lay person, we don't know. Or they say n95 and surgical masks may be effective but cloth masks are an unknown.
Re:The end of the pandemic is near by SkyPuncher on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:56AM (#27292153)
One of the challenges is communicating context.

20% to 80% of filters is not good enough in a healthcare setting since a provider may be in a room absolutely filled with virus particles.

In a public setting, 20% to 80% might be enough to limit incidental viral loads enough to prevent infection.

It's hard to define the effectiveness across a wide variety of settings a cloth mask might be used in.

Re:The end of the pandemic is near by mc32 on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:31AM (#27291844)
From a mechanical perspective it would seem it would be more effective at filtering air going in rather than air going out: when you inhale it creates a lower pressure which causes a better seal around the mouth. When you exhale you create pressure under the mask which can “break” the seal and allow more unfiltered air through.

It was kind of a way to make people with valves n-95 masks feel “guilty” for wearing them.

Re:The end of the pandemic is near by splithalf on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:16AM (#27291617)
Even good medical masks didn’t protect Li Wenliang. There was always agreement about well fitted n95 but we’re told, even by your linked article not to use those. Sorry but this seems like politics not science. Obviously if you layer enough masks you can almost get to n95 levels of protection but why not just use an n95 at that point?
Re:The end of the pandemic is near by eloff on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:27AM (#27291777)
The point is not that it gives you perfect protection or even n95 protection. It does give you more protection than maskless. Also the lower the viral load you're exposed to, the longer your body has to prepare. How the disease progresses is dosage dependant.

A low enough load is like a natural vaccination. You don't get sick, but you get some immunity. A high enough load and you can get the sickness very severely. It's a gradient, and masks help put you lower on that gradient than otherwise.

Re:The end of the pandemic is near by splithalf on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @01:06PM (#27293158)
Sure but it’s all about quantifying that accurately so that it can be compared to for example better building ventilation. If, hypothetically, better ventilation had 100x the effect of mask wearing, then focusing attention on masks would be counter productive no? Make no mistake I’m pro mask but mostly for psychological, ethical and economic reasons. I feel their benefits in terms of personal protection are vastly overstated, often in bad faith by those with a desire to impact other people’s behavior albeit with the best of intentions.
Re:The end of the pandemic is near by eloff on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @02:28PM (#27294274)
Why can't you do both? Mask wearing is simple, cheap, and available to all. That's like asking if it's better to focus on masks or vaccines. The answer is both.

As long as it's even marginally effective (and evidence suggests it's more than marginally effective) then it is a good idea.

Re:The end of the pandemic is near by reincarnate0x14 on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:06AM (#27291465)
Surgical masks are mostly about protecting the everyone else from the weaer, yes, but do provide a small benefit to the wearer as well as least with virions for influenza and coronaviruses. Depending on what study, rates of transmission reduction were 10-20% for the wearer, which doesn't sound huge but greatly reduces transmission at scale.

The filter masks like N95s (which are usable for all kinds of non-medical purposes like working around airborne particles of fiberglass or metal debris or whatever) offer a high degree of protection to the wearer as well.

Re:The end of the pandemic is near by splithalf on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:23AM (#27291710)
Exactly. For personal protection you use n95 or better and know it’s not perfect. If you don’t care about personal protection but want to reduce spread in a community then getting large groups to wear any face covering will help, but not nearly as much as social distancing which renders masks meaningless. For community spread, again not personal safety, it’s best to just stay home altogether. Masks are like pulling out during sex, a very imperfect way to compensate for bad behavior (not social distancing).
Re:The end of the pandemic is near by Retric on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @10:57AM (#27291329)
All masks provide some protection for the user from air born droplets produced by coughing and sneezing. N95 masks or the equivalent provide significant protection from catching the disease. Though eye protection is still very important when treating patients with COVID.

Also, it’s important to realize that initial viral load makes a significant difference in how sick people get. Simply reducing exposure can therefore reduce how sick someone becomes.

Re:The end of the pandemic is near by rhino369 on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @12:40PM (#27292737)
>Also, it’s important to realize that initial viral load makes a significant difference in how sick people get.

While that was an early hypothesis, I'm not sure that has really been proven. A lot of the early data wasn't really "initial" viral load, but viral load when they presented in the hospital. That's not necessary an indication of initial viral load.

Re:The end of the pandemic is near by Retric on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @01:32PM (#27293535)
In the end most viruses have similar interactions with the body. The immune system simply takes a while to physically respond which is why initial viral load is important.

So, initial viral load is not COVID specific. Also viral load at first detection is a different yet important criteria for EBOLA, COVID, and other diseases. https://www.jci.org/articles/view/83162

Re:The end of the pandemic is near by rhino369 on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @02:54PM (#27294580)
It doesn't follow that viral load at infection matters because the immune system takes a while to respond. You have a built in assumption that immune response is exactly the same whether there is 1 (arbitrary unit) virus vs. 50 (arbitrary unit) virus. I'm not sure that is true. I could imagine the body starting a heavy immune response at 100 virus--which would mean the difference between 1 and 50 might have little affect on outcome.

Your paper is about viral load at diagnosis--not infection. Diagnosis happens after your immune system has been fighting a while.

Re:The end of the pandemic is near by Retric on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @06:20PM (#27296832)
That study was not supposed to refer to viral load at initial infection, you need to test viral load at exposure in a lab.

The 1 vs 50 difference is known to be based in part on the innate immune system not just the adaptive immune system. Most of the time you don’t need to create specific antibodies etc. If only a single virus enters the body it’s likely for you to fight off the infection without noticing though with the downside of failing to develop long term immunity.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innate_immune_system

The 50 vs 50,000 is a related though less proven idea. Extreme exposure can simply overwhelm the immune system and extreme cases directly result in septic shock, but the middle ground is harder to test.

Re:The end of the pandemic is near by akiselev on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:04AM (#27291432)
The jury is out on whether N95's provide any extra protection over a thick bandana or blown plastic surgical masks for the general public, isn't it? The average person cannot be expected to fit an N95 properly.
Re:The end of the pandemic is near by jfkvktnrnr on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:10AM (#27291512)
A totally unfit N95 has way less leakage than a very carefully fit surgical mask.

Just try it for yourself, put a N95 on you face and don't even press the metal nose thing, and then see if you can fit a surgical mask better than this unfit N95.

This is another meme which needs to die.

Re:The end of the pandemic is near by akiselev on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:39AM (#27291951)
> Just try it for yourself, put a N95 on you face and don't even press the metal nose thing, and then see if you can fit a surgical mask better than this unfit N95.

I have, with a proper fit tester. If you use a half mask respirator with cartridges, sure, the rubber seal is better by default. However, most N95 masks I've seen in public are are the cheap rigid masks leaving large gaps all around the circumference, whereas the surgical masks/bandana cling to the skin better.

Re:The end of the pandemic is near by _ph_ on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:12AM (#27291546)
That would be a to-do item for after the pandemic then: make sure that there is sufficient supply with quality N95 masks and training people how to use them, also perhaps: offer several sizes to ensure perfect fit. There is no good reason not to own a small supply of masks going forward.
Re:The end of the pandemic is near by tartoran on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:01AM (#27291390)
With N95 you filter a whole lot of things out of the air. I’ll consider wearing a mask in special ocasions as well. Another one is in the winter, wearing the mask when the air is cold and gusts of wind blow in your face helps too. Or when on a bike or e-scooter or running through a very polluted area should help somewhat as well
Re:The end of the pandemic is near by kgc on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:15AM (#27291603)
Does it matter that much? Both are good.
Re:The end of the pandemic is near by geoduck14 on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:43AM (#27292003)
It really does.

There is a non-zero cost to wearing masks. It is important to be able to make the cost-benefit analysis when deciding which mitigation to implement.

Re:The end of the pandemic is near by paulmd on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @01:29PM (#27293485)
nothing is zero-cost but wearing a mask in public is as near to zero as any practical cost can be. Costco had a sale a few weeks ago, 250 masks for 5 bucks, or you can buy a re-usable one and wear it for months.

as far as the "human cost" of wearing a mask... grow up. Asian societies like China/Japan/Korea have been wearing masks forever and they're fine. Now that the consequences of spread are more severe (vs just plain old flu) it's time for this custom to spread more widely.

again, the hilarious thing is it's always adults who are so childish about this whole thing. Kids intuitively get it, just like they grasp a lot of the boomer issues that society is burying its head about.

It's so ironic that in modern society, the children are adults and the adults are childish.

Re:The end of the pandemic is near by irq11 on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @06:05PM (#27296695)
> as far as the "human cost" of wearing a mask... grow up. Asian societies like China/Japan/Korea have been wearing masks forever and they're fine

This is a racist meme that needs to die. You would see some people wearing masks. By no means did everyone wear them. Not even close.

The only people claiming that mask adoption was common across asia have never spent significant time there.

Re:The end of the pandemic is near by _ph_ on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:01AM (#27291384)
Depends on the mask and what exactly you are protecting against. The medical masks are good against droplets and protects others in the case of Covid, FFP2 (N95) masks give good self-protection.
Re:The end of the pandemic is near by anovikov on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:08AM (#27291482)
Normal or surgical mask, yes. N95 mask protects oneself very well, too.