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Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday May 22, 2021 @02:32AM (#27244086)
Honest question: how do we fix this? The obvious solution, prosecuting academics, has an awful precedence attached to it.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by lordnacho on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:13AM (#27244281)
Not my turf but I'll chime in.

In the past people who did science could do so with less personally on the line. In the early days you had men of letters like Cavendish who didn't really need to care if you liked what he wrote, he'd be fine without any grants. That obviously doesn't work for everyone, but then the tenure system developed for a similar reason: you have to be able to follow an unproductive path sometimes without starving. And that can mean unproductive in that you don't find anything or in that your peers don't rate your work. There'd be a gap between being a young researcher and tenured, sure.

Nowadays there's an army of precariously employed phds and postdocs. Publish or perish is a trope. People get really quite old while still being juniors in some sense, and during that time everyone is thinking "I have to not jeopardise my career".

When you have a system where all the agents are under huge pressure, they adapt in certain ways: take safer bets, write more papers from each experiment, cooperate with others for mutual gain, congregate around previous winners, generally more risk reducing behaviour.

Perhaps the thing to do is make a hard barrier: everyone who wants to be a researcher needs to get tenure after undergrad, or not at all. (Or after masters or whatever, I wouldn't know.) Those people then get a grant for life. It will be hard to get one of these, but it will be clear if you have to give up. Lab assistants and other untenured staff know what they are negotiating for. Tenured young people can start a family and not have the rug pulled out when they write something interesting.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by msg3 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @06:13AM (#27245139)
I agree with your diagnosis of the problem, but don't think your solution is a good way forward - immediately after undergrad is way too early to be evaluating research potential and would just shift the hyper competitiveness earlier.

A better solution would be to stop overproducing PhDs. We could reduce funding for PhD students and re-direct that towards more postdoctoral positions - perhaps even make research scientist a viable career choice?

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by TimPC on Saturday May 22, 2021 @07:27AM (#27245495)
Overproducing PhDs seems to be a necessary aspect of how research is conducted in the current university. Most serious lines of work are pursued by a PhD student or Postdoc and advised by a Professor. They need a critical mass of PhD students which is definitely a much larger number than 1 per professorship. This is especially true in fields where industry jobs aren't readily available.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by msg3 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @09:56AM (#27246573)
I think that's a huge part of the problem though - we've made it so the only way we can get research done is by training a new researcher - even though there's already plenty of trained researchers who are struggling to find a decent job.

I'm suggesting that we re-direct some of the funding for training PhD students into funding for postdoctoral positions (via either fellowships or research grants). Professors would still get their research team, but rather than consisting mostly of untrained PhD students, they'd have a smaller, but more effective team of trained researchers.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by oldnews193 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @07:51AM (#27245620)
Isn't that the case simply because professors are expected to be highly productive, to the extent where it is not possible to meet the bar without offloading the work to students and switching to a full-time manager?
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by lmm on Saturday May 22, 2021 @08:47AM (#27245980)
> I agree with your diagnosis of the problem, but don't think your solution is a good way forward - immediately after undergrad is way too early to be evaluating research potential and would just shift the hyper competitiveness earlier.

Immediately after undergrad is how it used to work in the golden days of science, more or less.

If the competitiveness is the problem maybe tenure should be a lottery that you enter once at a fixed stage, preferably before you're expected to start publishing in journals.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by msg3 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @09:52AM (#27246530)
I think we had a far smaller number of people going to university back in the "golden days of science" - not sure you can really compare.

A tenure lottery seems like an extreme option - there has to be a middle ground between what we have now and something entirely random.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by ivan_gammel on Saturday May 22, 2021 @06:31AM (#27245225)
The system that produces PhDs isn’t that bad. It is a good way to create research portfolio useful for employment in private sector. We need to pay less attention to the title though - this is not a distinguishing achievement for life.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by RhysU on Saturday May 22, 2021 @07:26AM (#27245487)
Correct, it's not a laurel to rest on.

The act of producing a doctoral dissertation usually leaves something of a mark on one's outlook, skills, etc. I claim it is a _distinguishable_ achievement for life.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by achillesheels on Saturday May 22, 2021 @09:59AM (#27246590)
Yet the principle of pursuing knowledge is not for pecuniary interests. So your judgment demonstrates the temporal shift of the Western University towards rubber stamping people’s vocational aptitude. This leads to corruption, of course.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by uberswe on Saturday May 22, 2021 @07:14AM (#27245423)
This is one of the many reasons I like Universal Basic Income. Having UBI would let researchers take risks and have something to fall back on if needed and could reduce some of the pressure
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by TimPC on Saturday May 22, 2021 @07:24AM (#27245478)
I don't think UBI works well here because in most fields the level of success that the precarious group experiences in industry is substantially higher than a guaranteed minimum. A lot of people have identity aspects tied to their university affiliation and don't want to stop working with the university in part for that reason.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by dagw on Saturday May 22, 2021 @09:17AM (#27246214)
No matter what level we put UBI at, it will almost certainly be less than a third of what a researcher salary would be. Also it's not just about the money. Losing your job means losing access to a lab, access to data, access to grant money and basically everything you need to actually do research.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by ivan_gammel on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:02AM (#27244231)
Solution is to publish data, not „papers“ first and assign it a replication score - how many times it was verified by independent research. The paper can follow with the explanation, but citations will no longer be important - what will matter is the contribution to the replication score (will also work as an incentive to confirm other‘s results).
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by m_mueller on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:47AM (#27244464)
I think it would be gamed just like the current system. Instead of citation rings you just get replication rings.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by ivan_gammel on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:45AM (#27244756)
If someone gets contradicting result the replication score of the entire ring can be nullified or in case of intentional manipulation with data negated.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by m_mueller on Saturday May 22, 2021 @05:11AM (#27244881)
But you have the same basic problem as now - you’d need some sort of science police to control it, which goes against the scientific process. Essentially it’s a problem of establishing trust in an untrusted system. Putting it that way actually makes it sound like a blockchain problem. Maybe there could be some incentive system to replicate work based on smart contracts, but I don’t know how you could ensure the replicating parties to be independent.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by ivan_gammel on Saturday May 22, 2021 @06:15AM (#27245151)
Scientific progress today heavily depends on financial support of society, so as a whole it cannot be completely decentralized and independent. People want to know how their money are spent and want to have guarantees that science will not create something awful. This means that policing of science is inevitable and important part of the system. It is not a question if we need science “police”, it is a question how it should look like. Today it is decentralized: someone maintains the list of media publishing in which will count for citation index, there are ethical committees and scientific boards, lawmakers regularly tell what can be done and what should not etc. How this will change if there will be a new system of incentives in place, we can only imagine: it can be a good or a bad thing, but as long as the system remains democratic, all problems should be easy to fix.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by headmelted on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:17AM (#27244300)
This seems like the right answer.

Don’t (credible) journalists have an honour system of getting at least three sources for a story?

Can’t we make researchers get at least two more confirmations from separate teams for something far more important?

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by PeterisP on Saturday May 22, 2021 @07:46AM (#27245591)
A key function of scientific publication is to inform other researchers in the field about potentially interesting things as quickly as resonable. Getting "two more confirmations from separate teams" is a very high bar, as it's not about just asking a source, it's asking someone else to do all the same work again. Not only we don't require it before publication, we don't expect it to happen for the vast majority of publications ever. Important studies get replicated, but most don't get repeated ever. A partial explanation of the original article's observation is the (very many!) papers that don't have much citations and don't fail to replicate because nobody cared enough to put the work in to try.

If publication would require two more confirmations from separate teams, that would mean (a) doing the work in triplicate, so you get three times less results for the same effort; (b) the process would take twice as long as I spend a year doing the experiment and then someone else can start and spend a year doing the same experiment, and only then it gets published; (c) there's a funding issue - I have somehow got funding to spend many months of multiple people on this, but who's paying the other independent teams to do that?; (d) it's not a given that there are two other teams capable of doing the exact same research, e.g. if you want to publish a study on the results of an innovative surgery procedure, it's plausible that there aren't (yet!) any other surgeons worldwide who are ready to perform that operation, that will come some time after the publication; (e) many types of science really can't get a separate confirmation - for example, we have only one Large Hadron Collider, you can't re-do archeological digs, event-specific on-site sociological data gathering can't really be repeated, etc; so you have to take the data at face value.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by ivan_gammel on Saturday May 22, 2021 @08:19AM (#27245802)
What you describe is absolutely right, it is important to have this kind of communication. If publications were only the means to communicate, that would serve the purpose and won't be a problem. The problem is that they are considered having a second purpose - to create scientific reputation, based on which society allocates funds and prioritizes the research. The original article illustrates how wrong this approach can be, substituting the ability to produce scientific facts with the good story telling.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by achillesheels on Saturday May 22, 2021 @10:03AM (#27246636)
Maybe research that cannot be replicated ought not be pursued? Aren’t there better directions for a society’s calorie outputs?
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by waheoo on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:23AM (#27244327)
There aren't many credible journalists left. Maybe like 5.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by Bombthecat on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:48AM (#27244773)
Somewhere in there i see a blockchain pitch.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by alboaie on Saturday May 22, 2021 @08:09AM (#27245734)
Having a scientific blockchain looks like a decent idea... but of course it will not suffice and will be gamed. The real causes of the mess are complexity of the world compared with our minds and tools and the lack of epistemologic undestanding as society,institutions, culture. Science can't be more than a nice and usefull collection of heuristics. Otherwise is just the Scientism religion lurking arround and pretenting to read God's mind. Metarationality concepts could offer an exit from the inevitable mess.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by lasagnaphil on Saturday May 22, 2021 @09:49AM (#27246510)
What do you mean by 'metarationality'? It's a term I've never seen before and I'm curious about it.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by dorgo on Saturday May 22, 2021 @07:41AM (#27245560)
Game theory might be better suited.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by ivan_gammel on Saturday May 22, 2021 @06:21AM (#27245181)
I personally love this comment as a quintessence of startup mentality.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by seoaeu on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:16PM (#27249480)
Ok, I got 12, 18, 45. Does anyone want to verify my results? If so, I'll write up a paper describing what they mean...

Hopefully it is clear that that data is useless without some written text explaining what it means. Given that for hundreds of years the accepted way of presenting that explanatory text was by writing papers, I don't see any reason to abandon that. Tweaking our strategies for replication (after a description of the experiment has been published!) and reputation don't seem to contradict that.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by remus on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:08AM (#27244257)
Im not sure prosecuting academics is particularly obvious: you'd need to prove malicious intent (rather than ignorance) which is always difficult.

For me a better solution would be to properly incentivise replication work and solid scientific principles. If repeating an experiment and getting a contradictory result carried the same kudos as running the original experiment then I think we'd be in a healthier place. Similarly if doing the 'scientific grind work' of working out mistakes in experimental practice that can affect results and, ultimately, our understanding of the universe around us.

I think an analogy with software development works pretty well: often the incentives point towards adding new features above all else. Rarely is sitting down and grinding through the litany of small bugs prioritised, but as any dev will tell you doing that grind work is as important otherwise you'll run in to a wall of technical debt and the whole thing will come tumbling down.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by ZeroGravitas on Saturday May 22, 2021 @05:41AM (#27245013)
Open source and Free Software is (despite it being a cliche for programmers to over apply it) a good model to compare with.

You have big companies making Billions with the work of relatively poorly paid nerds. But as soon as you make it possible for the nerds to claim all the profits of the work then you have a whole class of people whose job is to insert themselves as middlemen and ruin it for everyone, both customers and developers.

So basically the aim is to limit the degree to which you can privately profit from science, and expand the amount of science you can easily build on. You still get enough incentives for progress, the benefits accrue to society as a whole, and competition and change is enabled without powerful gatekeepers controlling too much in their own interests.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by eob on Saturday May 22, 2021 @02:40AM (#27244121)
I really don’t know.

One perspective is that, “knowledge generation wise,” the current system really does work from a long term perspective. Evolutionary pressure keeps the good work alive while bad work dies. Like that [Top Institution] paper: if nobody else could reproduce it, then the ideas within it die because nobody can extend the work.

But that comes at the heavy short term cost of good researchers getting duped into wasting time and bad researchers seeing incentives in lying. Which will make academia less attractive to the kind of people that ought to be there, dragging down the whole community.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by higerordermap on Saturday May 22, 2021 @07:34AM (#27245528)
This is a recent HN thread and Post you might find interesting.

https://nintil.com/newton-hypothesis

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25787745

Due to career and other reasons, there is a publish or perish crisis today.

Maybe we can do better by accepting not everyone can publish ground breaking results, and it's okay.

There are lots of incompetent people in academia, who later go to upper positions and decide your promotions by citation counts and how much papers you published. I have no realistic ideas how to counter this.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by ordu on Saturday May 22, 2021 @10:13AM (#27246715)
> Honest question: how do we fix this?

We need to create new a social institution of Anti-Science, which would work on other stimuli correlated with the amount of refuted articles. No tenures, no long-term contracts. If anti-scientist wished to have income it would need to refute science articles.

Create a platform allowing to hold a scientific debate between scientists and anti-scientists, for a scientist had an ability to defend his/her research.

No need to do anything special to prosecute, because Science is a very competitive, and availability of refutations would be used inevitable to stop career progressions of authors of refuted articles.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by mistermann on Saturday May 22, 2021 @11:58AM (#27247732)
This seems like a pragmatic and workable idea. We could even have the same type of thing for journalism and "facts" in general, it would be a step up from the current tribal meme/propaganda war approach we rely upon.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by zhdc1 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @02:58AM (#27244206)
Data and code archives, along with better methods training.

Data manipulation generally doesn't happen by changing values in a data frame. It's done by running and rerunning similar models with slightly different specifications to get a P value under .05, or by applying various "manipulations" to variables or the models themselves for the same effect. It's much easier to identify this when you have the code that was used to recreate whatever was eventually published.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by LeonB on Saturday May 22, 2021 @05:43AM (#27245019)
Registering the methods/details before performing the experiments is another technique that is used.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by dagw on Saturday May 22, 2021 @09:21AM (#27246247)
Sure, but often there are perfectly valid reasons to change your methodology half way through a project when you know a lot more about the thing you are trying to do than you did before you started.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by Nasrudith on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:15AM (#27244292)
I don't think prosecution is the right tool but if we were going down that road material misrepresentations only would fit with anti-fraud standard for companies. Just drawing dumb, unpopular, or 'biased' conclusions shouldn't be a crime but data tampering would fall into the scope. Not a great idea as it would add a chilling effect, lawyer-friction and expenses and still be hard to enforce for little direct gain.

I personally favor requirements which call for bundling raw datasets with the "papers". The data storage and transmission is very cheap now so there isn't a need to restrict ourselves to just texts. We should still be able to check all of the thrown out "outliers" from the datasets. An aim should be to make the tricks for massaging data nonviable. Even if you found your first data set was full of embarassing screw ups due to doing it hungover and mixing up step order it could be helpful to get a collection of "known errors" to analyze. Optimistically it could also uncover phenomenon scientests thought was them screwing up like say cosmic background radiation being taken as just noise and not really there.

Paper reviewing is already a problem but adding some transparency should help.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by unishark on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:51AM (#27244790)
Leveraging the prestigious papers to win grant proposals is where they need to get them. Citations aren't what gets you a job or tenure at a R1 research school, it's the grants that the high-impact papers help you win.

You don't have to convict people for full-on fraud. If you are caught using an obvious mistake in your favor or using a weak statistical approach, the punishment can be you are not allowed to apply for grants with a supervisor/co-PI/etc who's role is to prevent you from following that "dumb" process in the future.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by mrweasel on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:32AM (#27244382)
We could use public funding to do the work OP tried to do.

Something like a well funded ten year campaign to do peer review, retrying experiments and publishing papers on why results are wrong.

I have a co-worker who had a job than involved publishing research papers. Based on his horror stories it seems like the most effective course of action is to attack the credibility of those who fudges results.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by ComodoHacker on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:35AM (#27244399)
With added bounty for discovering bad faith.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by roenxi on Saturday May 22, 2021 @05:11AM (#27244880)
The single biggest impediment to "fixing this" is that you haven't identified what "this" is or in what manner it is broken.

There will always be cases of fraud if someone deeps deeply enough into large institutions. That doesn't actually indicate that there is a problem.

Launching in to change complex systems like the research community based on a couple of anecdotes and just-so stories is a great way not actually achieving anything meaningful. There needs to be a very thorough, emotionally and technically correct enumeration of what the actual problem(s) are.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by nostrebored on Saturday May 22, 2021 @05:14AM (#27244895)
A couple of anecdotes is a very disingenuous way to frame the replication crisis. Heavily cited fraudulent research impacts public policy, medicine, and technology development. This means it's everyone's business.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by roenxi on Saturday May 22, 2021 @05:48AM (#27245040)
The problem you're describing there is a public policy one, not something to do with the scientific community. Public policy should be implemented with a trial at the start and a "check for effectiveness" step at the end because there is no way to guarantee the research it is being based on is accurate. Statistically, we expect a big chunk of research to be wrong no matter what level of integrity the scientists have.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by mike_hearn on Saturday May 22, 2021 @07:01AM (#27245366)
"Statistically, we expect a big chunk of research to be wrong no matter what level of integrity the scientists have" - that's the actual problem under discussion here.

Research is heavily funded because people believe it's something more than a random claim making machine. You say governments should assume research is wrong and then try to replicate any claim before acting on it. But you end up in a catch 22: if the research community is constantly producing wrong claims there's no reason to believe your replication attempt is correct, as it will presumably be done by researchers or people who are closely aligned.

Additionally inability to replicate is only one of many possible problems with a paper. Many badly designed studies that cannot tell you anything will easily replicate. A lot of papers are of the form "Wet pavements cause umbrella usage". That'll replicate every single time, but it's not telling you anything useful about the world. Merely trying to fix things with lots of replication studies thus won't really solve the problem.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by TimPC on Saturday May 22, 2021 @07:31AM (#27245512)
Research is far better than a random claim making machine even if some of it has errors that have caused the replication crisis. It's easy to overstate the level of the problem even though it's fairly severe at this point.

"Wet pavements cause umbrella usage" is something where I'd want to see your specific examples because it's easy to get a correlational study of that nature but very hard to design a causal one. The correlational studies are usually accurate and often useful for other research.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by cycomanic on Saturday May 22, 2021 @09:03AM (#27246106)
I would argue the whole framing of the "replication crisis" is another example of the problem with "overselling" research results. Yes there is a problem with some research in some areas of science not being replicatable. However, the vast majority of research in many fields does not have this problem. Framing this as a "crisis" overstates the problem and gives the impression that the majority of research can't be replicated.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by cjfd on Saturday May 22, 2021 @05:20AM (#27244916)
By waiting until scientists address this? Note that the 'replication crisis' is something that originated inside science itself, so, despite there being problems science has not lost its self-correcting abilities. The scientists themselves can do something by insisting on reliable and correct methods and pointing it out wherever such methods are not in use. It is also not like there are no gains in doing this. Brian Nosek became rather famous.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by mike_hearn on Saturday May 22, 2021 @06:25AM (#27245198)
The replication crisis is not being addressed. It's being discussed occasionally within the academy, but a cynic might wonder if that's because writing about the prevalence of bad papers is a way to write an interesting paper (and who is checking if papers about replication themselves replicate?). It's been discussed far longer and more extensively by the general public but those discussions aren't taken seriously by the establishment, being as they are often phrased in street terms like "you can find an expert to tell you anything" or "according to scientists everything causes cancer so what do they know?". And of course the higher quality criticism gets blown off as mere "skepticism" or "conspiracy theories" and anyone who tries to research that is labelled as toxic.

So a lot of people only notice this in the rare cases when someone within the academy decides to write about it. This can make it seem like science is self correcting, but it appears in reality it's not. When measured quantitatively there is no real improvement over time. Alvaro de Menard has written extensively on this topic and presented data on the evolution of P values over the last decade:

https://fantasticanachronism.com/2020/09/11/whats-wrong-with...

Additionally as he observes at the end of his essay, the problems are due to bad incentives, so the only true changes can come from changes to incentives. However those incentives are set by the government. Individual scientists cannot themselves change the incentives. The granting agencies are entirely oblivious to the problems and the scale of their ambition is in no way equal to the scale of their problem:

"If you look at the NSF's 2019 Performance Highlights, you'll find items such as "Foster a culture of inclusion through change management efforts" (Status: "Achieved") and "Inform applicants whether their proposals have been declined or recommended for funding in a timely manner" (Status: "Not Achieved") .... We're talking about an organization with an 8 billion dollar budget that is responsible for a huge part of social science funding, and they can't manage to inform people that their grant was declined! These are the people we must depend on to fix everything."

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by vbezhenar on Saturday May 22, 2021 @05:26AM (#27244946)
Scientists with a proven track record should have life-long funding of their laboratory without any questions asked. So they can act as they want without fear of social repercussions. Of course some money will be wasted and the question of determining whether a track record is proven is still open, but I think that's the only way for things to work (except when the scientist himself have enough money to fund his own work).
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by msg3 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @06:17AM (#27245165)
I think this would be a positive step, but to play devil's advocate, what happens when this superstar scientist retires? If I'm a researcher in his lab, does my job just disappear? If so, I'm still going to feel pressure to exaggerate the impact of my research.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by mike_hearn on Saturday May 22, 2021 @06:44AM (#27245283)
I've been spending a lot of time on 'bad science' as a topic lately (check my comment history or blog for some examples). I think what you're proposing is the opposite of what's required.

Firstly, the problem here is not an epidemic of scientists who feel too financially insecure to do good work. Many of the worst papers are being written by people with decades-long careers and who lead large labs. Their funding is very secure. They are doing bad work anyway for other reasons, sometimes political or ideological, more often because doing bad work results in attention, praise and power. Or sometimes because they don't know how to explain their chosen question, but don't want to admit that scientifically they failed and don't know where to go next.

Secondly, as you already realized your proposal relies on identifying which scientists have a proven track record, but the whole problem is that science is flooded with fraudulent/garbage claims which are highly cited ("proven") and which were written by large teams of supposedly respectable scientists at supposedly respectable institutions. Any metric you can invent to decide who or what has a proven track record is going to be circular in this regard. To Rumsfeld the problem, we are surrounded by "unknown knowns". You say this is an open question but to me that's a fatal flaw.

So the problem is actually the inverse. You say at the end, well, scientists who can fund their own work are an exception. Obviously in most cases scientists don't need to do this, they can also be funded by companies. Most computer science research works this way. Better CPUs and hardware is done almost entirely by companies. AI research has been driven by corporate scientists, and so on. In contrast academic funding comes primarily from government agencies that distribute money according to the desires of academics. This means a tiny number of people control large sums of money, and they are accountable to nobody except themselves. There are no systems or controls on academic behavior except peer review, which is largely useless because the peers are doing the same bad things as everyone else.

Viewed from an economic perspective academia is a planned reputation economy. The state is the source of all resource allocation decisions (academics being effectively state employees in most fields). There's also a deeply embedded Marxist worldview: universities have no working mechanisms to detect fraud, because of an implicit assumption that deep down when market forces are gone everyone is automatically honest and good. The hierarchy is stagnant; the same institutions remain at the top for centuries. A good reputation lets them select the people with the reputation for being smart (e.g. by school grade), so that reputation accrues to the institutions, which lets them keep selecting intake by reputation and so on. Supposedly Oxford and Cambridge are the best UK universities, they always have been, and they always will be. In a competitive, free market economy they would face competition and other institutions would seek to figure out what their secret is and copy it, like how so many companies try to copy the Toyota Way. In science this doesn't happen because there's nothing to copy: these institutions aren't actually different.

This implies a simple solution, just privatize it all. It would be wrenching, just like it was when the USSR transitioned to a market economy, just like it was when China (sort of) did the same. But one thing the 20th century teaches us is that you can't really fix the problems of a planned economy by tinkering with small reforms at the edges. The Soviets weren't able to fix their culture with glasnost and perestroika. They eventually had to give up on the whole thing. Replacing the current reputation economy with a real economy, with all the mechanisms that economic system has evolved (markets, prices, regulators, court cases, fraud laws etc), seems like a more direct and obvious approach to making things better, even if it may sound extreme.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by toomim on Saturday May 22, 2021 @09:02PM (#27251617)
Oh hey, Mike Hearn! I've long been a fan of yours in Bitcoin. It's good to see you're interested in 'bad science' lately as well -- this is a topic I've also been working on for the last N years along with Bitcoin. I hope we get to interact more in the future. :)

My envisioned solution is similar to yours, here. But rather than "privatize science", which I think most people will interpret as "move to industrial research", my rallying cry is a little more like "hey scientists, stop depending on public funding, let's find creative ways to get the science done."

I also like to point out that money is often not the missing factor as much as community. This has always been true. Mendel discovered genetics by experimenting on beanstalks in his garden at his monastery. It cost him very little to do it, and he only stopped the research when his community told him to stop wasting time on beans and get back to the important accounting work that impacted the church's politics at the time.

You might think that maybe science was cheap in the past, but that today you need lots of money, to get the lab equipment, etc. However, science always has a cutting edge of cheaply evaluable questions. We recently hosted a DIY Synthetic Biologist (currently on the homepage of https://invisible.college) who showed the actual costs of his work, and his laboratory equipment was far, far, cheaper than the "cost" of his time. We can get far more science done with "amateur scientists" (remember that "ama" means love, and an amateur scientist is one doing science for love) by creating a scientific community outside the institutions for interested parties to work together, pool their brainpower and resources, and come up with great novel work.

And if anyone else agrees with me on this, please let me know so we can forces. I'm [email protected], and am doing work on invisible.college.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by mike_hearn on Sunday May 23, 2021 @09:30AM (#27254878)
Hello! Absolutely, drop me an email any time you like.

I absolutely agree that a lot of science can be done very cheaply. Some of the most impactful papers were done by people who weren't in an institutional framework, even in the modern era (Satoshi being an obvious example). Additionally it seems most of the really problematic fields are ones where the budget gets dispersed over large number of people writing very cheap low budget papers, hence millions of social science papers with tiny sample sizes.

I'm a big supporter of industrial research though. Many great papers come out of industrial labs. Modern computing is practically defined by such research. The big advances all seem to come from big corporate labs (Xerox PARC, Bell Labs, Google, DeepMind, IBM, Sun, Microsoft, etc). The research is powerful because it's funded by people who expect some sort of meaningful results and supervise the work to ensure it doesn't go completely off the rails. Academic institutions have developed this totally hands off attitude that makes research more or less unaccountable to any standard beyond "will it get published", which in turn can be rephrased as "are the claims interesting".

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by toomim on Sunday May 23, 2021 @04:24PM (#27258270)
Great! Thank you for the invitation! :)

> The big advances all seem to come from big corporate labs

That's an interesting claim, and I'd encourage you to find some statistics to verify this hypothesis, because in my experience, that doesn't ring true.

From my subjective perspective, it seems that academic and industrial research labs innovate at roughly the same rate per-capita. I was a PhD student when Microsoft was dominant, hiring the best faculty from all top-4 CS schools (CMU, Berkeley, MIT, Stanford), and they certainly produced a lot of papers, and did seem to dominate conferences, but the actual innovation in computing came from Apple and startups, which did not have "research labs". Microsoft, including its giant industrial research lab, certainly was not the driver of innovation in computing!

And here are some numbers to back that up: Microsoft's R&D budget in 2011 was 10x the budget of the entire NSF -- for all sciences. Yet, Microsoft was clearly not producing more than 10x the scientific output of all NSF-funded academic science.

So it would help to have some statistics for the claim that industrial research innovates more than academic research. They certainly pay more, and often hire more people, but per-capita they don't seem any more productive or healthier than academics.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by mike_hearn on Thursday May 27, 2021 @04:41AM (#27300675)
Ah, right. That gets us into the definitions of innovation and research.

Apple does very little research, in the conventional scientific sense we're discussing here, I think that's pretty uncontroversial. They produce few if any papers. They are (or were, under Jobs) very good at coming up with new ideas that strongly appeal to the buyer and which got them a reputation for innovation, but which probably wouldn't be considered clever enough to be research papers. At least not top tier papers.

For example, exposé is a widely imitated feature and was considered very innovative at the time, but it wouldn't be seen as serious computer science. The iPhone is/was widely considered innovative but had basically no new research tech in it, given that capacitive touch screens weren't developed by Apple. It was just a really nicely implemented mobile computer. Actually the innovations in the iPhone are nearly all packagings of tech developed by third party firms that Apple then buys or buys exclusivity rights too. At least, that's true in my view.

Microsoft's R&D budget I think is also a victim of definitions. Software firms normally report all product development as R&D, right? I think these days they may even report datacenter builds as R&D. We can see this on Microsoft's investor website:

"In addition to our main research and development operations, we also operate Microsoft Research. Microsoft Research is one of the world's largest computer science research organizations"

i.e. the kind of university type "scientific" research we're discussing here is only a sideshow in Microsoft's R&D budget.

You're right to call me out though; I don't have any stats to prove that industrial research does more than academic research. It's not a statistical argument to begin with, just my own own perception ("all seem to"). I read a lot of CS papers and the best ones have corporate email addresses at the top - the second best, a mix of corporate and university addresses, the third best, only university addresses. If you asked the man on the street to name the biggest innovations in computing in the past 20 years they'd probably say things like, uh, smartphones, YouTube, AI, blockchain, etc etc. All things that have little connection to universities, with AI being the closest but it was Google that revived that whole field and has been pushing it forward ever since. Neural nets weren't receiving much investment by the academic community before that.

Anyway, that's CS. CS really isn't the problem here. The pseudo-science is elsewhere.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by enriquto on Saturday May 22, 2021 @02:40AM (#27244117)
at least in some parts of computer science the solution is easy: do not ever publish results without the public source code of all the experiments.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by clavigne on Saturday May 22, 2021 @08:20AM (#27245808)
I did peer review for a number of scientific papers that include code. Almost every time, I was the only reviewer that even look at the code.

In most cases, peer reviewers will just assume that authors claiming the "code is available" means that a) it is reproducible and b) it is actually there.

As a counter example, this recent splashy paper

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41587-021-00907-6

claims the code is available on github, but the github version ( https://github.com/jameswweis/delphi ) contains the actual model only as a Pickle file, and contains no data or featurization.

So clearly, the peer reviewers didn't look at it.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by enriquto on Saturday May 22, 2021 @09:30AM (#27246334)
that. The main task of the reviewers should be to re-run all the experiments on their own computer and check the results.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by clavigne on Saturday May 22, 2021 @05:20PM (#27250362)
re-running is definitely too much work for most scientific papers, at least in ML and computational sciences were experiments might take 1000s of core-hours or gpu-hours, but that's usually not necessary. In addition, just running the code can spot really bad problems (it doesn't work) but easily miss subtle ones (it works but only for very specific cases).

I think it's more important for reviewers to read the source, the same way one would read an experimental protocol and supplementary information, mainly checking for discrepancies between what the paper claims is happening and what is actually being done. In the above example, a reviewer reading the code would have spotted that the model isn't there at all, even though it runs fine.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by seoaeu on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:25PM (#27249548)
Providing source code is a good thing, but a lot of people confuse re-running experiments with replicating them. If you take the authors' source code and re-run it, then any bugs are going to invalidate your results too. The only way to actually have confidence in the paper's results are to rewrite the software from scratch.

In fact, I'd actually go further and question what kinds of errors could possibly be caught be running the same software that the authors did? Any accidental bugs will remain, and any malicious tampering with the experiment data is exceedingly unlikely to be caught even with a careful audit of the code.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by astrange on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:00AM (#27244510)
That isn't possible if you're using commercially licensed source from other people, drivers for scientific instruments, lacking copyright assignment for some of it, etc. Same reason many commercial projects can't be open sourced even if the company wanted to.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by enriquto on Saturday May 22, 2021 @06:17AM (#27245166)
So people who used proprietary software will not be able to publish. Sounds like a win-win to me!
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by astrange on Saturday May 22, 2021 @06:41AM (#27245263)
Your definition of free software is more restrictive than the FSF’s.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by enriquto on Saturday May 22, 2021 @07:26AM (#27245491)
of course i was simplifying... but it seems obvious to me that enforcing automatic reproducibility in peer reviewed publications can only be a good thing in the long run
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by refurb on Saturday May 22, 2021 @08:03AM (#27245700)
My personal opinion is this problem fixes itself over time.

When I was in graduate school papers from one lab at Harvard were know to be “best case scenario”. Other labs had a rock solid reputation - if they said you could do X with their procedure, you could bet on it.

So basically we treated every claim as potential BS unless it came from a reputable lab or we or others had replicated it.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by la_fayette on Saturday May 22, 2021 @08:14AM (#27245763)
An approach to how go about it is to include a replication package with the paper, including the dataset... This should be regarded as standard practice today, as sharing something was never easier. However, adding a replication package is still done by the minority of researchers...
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by Bombthecat on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:46AM (#27244764)
You can't, except trying to fix human nature..
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by diegoperini on Saturday May 22, 2021 @06:55AM (#27245334)
Instead of adding a punishment, maybe we should remove the reward. How, that I don't know.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by open0 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @02:50AM (#27244165)
More transparency in some form, requiring researchers to publish code and data openly for instance.