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Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by lordnacho on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:13AM (#27244281)
Not my turf but I'll chime in.

In the past people who did science could do so with less personally on the line. In the early days you had men of letters like Cavendish who didn't really need to care if you liked what he wrote, he'd be fine without any grants. That obviously doesn't work for everyone, but then the tenure system developed for a similar reason: you have to be able to follow an unproductive path sometimes without starving. And that can mean unproductive in that you don't find anything or in that your peers don't rate your work. There'd be a gap between being a young researcher and tenured, sure.

Nowadays there's an army of precariously employed phds and postdocs. Publish or perish is a trope. People get really quite old while still being juniors in some sense, and during that time everyone is thinking "I have to not jeopardise my career".

When you have a system where all the agents are under huge pressure, they adapt in certain ways: take safer bets, write more papers from each experiment, cooperate with others for mutual gain, congregate around previous winners, generally more risk reducing behaviour.

Perhaps the thing to do is make a hard barrier: everyone who wants to be a researcher needs to get tenure after undergrad, or not at all. (Or after masters or whatever, I wouldn't know.) Those people then get a grant for life. It will be hard to get one of these, but it will be clear if you have to give up. Lab assistants and other untenured staff know what they are negotiating for. Tenured young people can start a family and not have the rug pulled out when they write something interesting.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by msg3 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @06:13AM (#27245139)
I agree with your diagnosis of the problem, but don't think your solution is a good way forward - immediately after undergrad is way too early to be evaluating research potential and would just shift the hyper competitiveness earlier.

A better solution would be to stop overproducing PhDs. We could reduce funding for PhD students and re-direct that towards more postdoctoral positions - perhaps even make research scientist a viable career choice?

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by TimPC on Saturday May 22, 2021 @07:27AM (#27245495)
Overproducing PhDs seems to be a necessary aspect of how research is conducted in the current university. Most serious lines of work are pursued by a PhD student or Postdoc and advised by a Professor. They need a critical mass of PhD students which is definitely a much larger number than 1 per professorship. This is especially true in fields where industry jobs aren't readily available.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by msg3 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @09:56AM (#27246573)
I think that's a huge part of the problem though - we've made it so the only way we can get research done is by training a new researcher - even though there's already plenty of trained researchers who are struggling to find a decent job.

I'm suggesting that we re-direct some of the funding for training PhD students into funding for postdoctoral positions (via either fellowships or research grants). Professors would still get their research team, but rather than consisting mostly of untrained PhD students, they'd have a smaller, but more effective team of trained researchers.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by oldnews193 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @07:51AM (#27245620)
Isn't that the case simply because professors are expected to be highly productive, to the extent where it is not possible to meet the bar without offloading the work to students and switching to a full-time manager?
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by lmm on Saturday May 22, 2021 @08:47AM (#27245980)
> I agree with your diagnosis of the problem, but don't think your solution is a good way forward - immediately after undergrad is way too early to be evaluating research potential and would just shift the hyper competitiveness earlier.

Immediately after undergrad is how it used to work in the golden days of science, more or less.

If the competitiveness is the problem maybe tenure should be a lottery that you enter once at a fixed stage, preferably before you're expected to start publishing in journals.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by msg3 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @09:52AM (#27246530)
I think we had a far smaller number of people going to university back in the "golden days of science" - not sure you can really compare.

A tenure lottery seems like an extreme option - there has to be a middle ground between what we have now and something entirely random.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by ivan_gammel on Saturday May 22, 2021 @06:31AM (#27245225)
The system that produces PhDs isn’t that bad. It is a good way to create research portfolio useful for employment in private sector. We need to pay less attention to the title though - this is not a distinguishing achievement for life.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by RhysU on Saturday May 22, 2021 @07:26AM (#27245487)
Correct, it's not a laurel to rest on.

The act of producing a doctoral dissertation usually leaves something of a mark on one's outlook, skills, etc. I claim it is a _distinguishable_ achievement for life.

Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by achillesheels on Saturday May 22, 2021 @09:59AM (#27246590)
Yet the principle of pursuing knowledge is not for pecuniary interests. So your judgment demonstrates the temporal shift of the Western University towards rubber stamping people’s vocational aptitude. This leads to corruption, of course.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by uberswe on Saturday May 22, 2021 @07:14AM (#27245423)
This is one of the many reasons I like Universal Basic Income. Having UBI would let researchers take risks and have something to fall back on if needed and could reduce some of the pressure
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by TimPC on Saturday May 22, 2021 @07:24AM (#27245478)
I don't think UBI works well here because in most fields the level of success that the precarious group experiences in industry is substantially higher than a guaranteed minimum. A lot of people have identity aspects tied to their university affiliation and don't want to stop working with the university in part for that reason.
Re:A new replication crisis: Research that is less likely to... by dagw on Saturday May 22, 2021 @09:17AM (#27246214)
No matter what level we put UBI at, it will almost certainly be less than a third of what a researcher salary would be. Also it's not just about the money. Losing your job means losing access to a lab, access to data, access to grant money and basically everything you need to actually do research.