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Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by gpm on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @11:50AM (#27196311)
I think the proposal here is very simple. Pass a law against proof of work crypto currencies, don't let perfect be the enemy of good, and deal with the next big waste of power when it comes about by passing a law about it.

Don't address of any the things that you are proposing need addressing, because they don't need to be addressed in the same law, or really addressed right now at all.

The law doesn't need to try and anticipate the actions that occur in the future, we will still have a legislature in the future capable of addressing the future when it comes about. The law needs to address the actions of today.

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by bko on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @11:54AM (#27196385)
> The law doesn't need to try and anticipate the actions that occur in the future

That's an incredibly dangerous idea.

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by hjek on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @11:59AM (#27196480)
Bitcoin is an incredibly dangerous idea because of its contributions to the climate crisis.
Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by doggosphere on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:26PM (#27197040)
Bitcoin does not consume fossil fuel as a raw material; it is not an ingredient required for its operation. It uses electricity which can be generated from any source, be it wind, solar, or coal.

Subsidized coal mining and untaxed carbon emissions are dangerous ideas.

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by lottin on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @01:11PM (#27197790)
Gratuitous use of electricity is anti-economical regardless of the source.
Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by doggosphere on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @01:27PM (#27198063)
Electricity has higher economic value due to miners seeking to maximize profits.

This makes investments in renewable energy infrastructure more profitable and paid off sooner. A solar farm has more demand and higher margin for its products.

On the other hand, it means cheap coal energy is also financially productive.

What is anti-economical is the unfair price competition due to externalities not captured by coal energy's pricing.

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by webXL on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @01:21PM (#27197946)
"gratuitous use" is completely subjective, so the anti-economical assertion isn't provable. You're suggesting there are no trade-offs between PoS and PoW, no tradeoffs between solar+batteries vs coal or nuclear.
Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by lottin on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @01:32PM (#27198146)
Yes, I'm saying there are no trade-offs between PoS and PoW. If there's one I'd like to know what it is.
Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by webXL on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @02:03PM (#27198600)
PoS can be easily copied and modified by the powerful. There's little cost to create the system and force adoption rather than incentivize. There's an enormous amount of investment and technology dedicated to bitcoin that makes it more resistant to devaluation and duplication. But it saves electricity. That's the trade-off.

Why not focus on the source of the electricity rather than what the electricity is used for?

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by lottin on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @02:53PM (#27199328)
I don't see how proof-of-waste makes bitcoin more resistant to devaluation and duplication. How would switching to proof-of-stake make bitcoin more prone to devaluation, for instance? As far as duplication is concerned, bitcoin is open-source software which means anyone can duplicate it and make derivative works from it. There are dozens of bitcoin clones. It doesn't seem that bitcoin is resistant to duplication at all, or that there is any reason the lack of difficulty with which it can be duplicated should be influenced by whether it uses proof-of-waste or proof-of-stake.
Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by webXL on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @03:06PM (#27199475)
Any software engineer can clone Twitter. The value of it is in the network and the high cost of users switching because they can't convince the people they follow and those who follow them to switch at once. The same applies to Bitcoin, but miners have an even higher cost of switching because they have specialized hardware that can only generate revenue on the Bitcoin network. Ethereum validators have a much lower cost to switch.

> proof-of-waste

It's Proof of Work. Productive work has value and in this case, it's widely distributed censorship-resistant validation of transactions.

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by lottin on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @03:42PM (#27199991)
Network effects have to do with the amount of users, not with the choice between proof-of-waste and proof-of-stake.
Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by nickpp on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:21PM (#27196932)
Would you like to ban all that contributes to the climate crisis then? How about ice cream? Or flying to a vacation spot? Or having kids?
Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by hjek on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:37PM (#27197212)
Now "the antifa Biden voters are stealing our hamburgers" again.
Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by matheusmoreira on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:05PM (#27196600)
It's not even 1% of global energy consumption. Surely there are far more dangerous things to worry about out there.
Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by Shaanie on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:13PM (#27196768)
Isn't it still quite insane that around 0.5% of our global energy usage is spent on bitcoin, though?
Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by doggosphere on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:43PM (#27197336)
Is it? Over time human energy creation and consumption has grown exponentially with technological innovation. Fire to cook meat, a wagon attached to an ox, combustion engines, air conditioning, wireless networks, data centers, etc.

Today you probably consume more energy in a few days than your ancestors whole lives.

Now, we've created distributed, immutable property, something that has never existed before. It turns electricity into value storage. What is the "correct" amount of energy for humans to spend on such a thing?

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by hjek on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @01:06PM (#27197696)
> What is the "correct" amount of energy for humans to spend on such a thing?

Perhaps the "correct" amount is less than what it would take to increase planet temperature by 4°C?

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by doggosphere on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @01:15PM (#27197847)
Energy consumption has nothing to do with increasing planet temperature, if Bitcoin consumed 10x the energy via solar panels, it would not have any environmental impact beyond the raw materials used in the panels.

You're equating energy usage to carbon emissions, but you should be able to distinguish the difference.

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by hjek on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @05:20PM (#27201324)
> Energy consumption has nothing to do with increasing planet temperature,

As long as we're using fossil fuels, planet temperature does in fact have something to do with energy consumption. You seem to be arguing that because renewable energy sources exists, Bitcoin has nothing to do with fossil fuel emissions. However, that is false, as 8% of Bitcoin mining happens in Inner Mongolia, which is home to many of China's large coal mines[0].

[0]: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/bi...

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by doggosphere on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @06:02PM (#27201859)
I'm arguing that China subsidizes coal[0], and that China does not utilize a carbon tax[1].

So when you call for a ban of Bitcoin in the name in environmental concerns, you've decided to be the arbiter of energy usage, on what is productive and valuable, and what is not.

You're welcome to argue your points, but it would still be far more efficient and productive to addresses the actual core problem: coal fire plants, and energy prices.

[0]: https://www.iisd.org/gsi/faqs/china

[1]: https://www.carbontax.org/issues/what-about-china/

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by reedjosh on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @01:31PM (#27198135)
How much energy maintains the USD's reserve status?
Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by matheusmoreira on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @03:45PM (#27200040)
According to some other comment on this thread:

> a bunch of aircraft carriers and planes and bombs and people with big guns, which gives the ability to say (credibly) that it is a crime to forge dollars no matter who you are or where you live

Cryptocurrency offers all this and more for a fraction of the price.

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by matheusmoreira on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:24PM (#27196999)
Bitcoin? Yes, it's a useless coin. I wouldn't mind even higher amounts of energy being spent on Monero though.

It's good that Ethereum is moving to proof of stake. Not because of some environmental impact though. Mining is just really expensive, it results in huge fees making the coin almost unusable for normal people.

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by reedjosh on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @01:30PM (#27198120)
100% Monero is amazing. 1500+tps and it's just getting started. Faster transaction speeds, privacy, just awesome!
Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by matheusmoreira on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @03:09PM (#27199521)
Yeah. It's essentially a perfected version of bitcoin. It should be the number one currency.
Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by broighbrobroigh on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @01:08PM (#27197730)
How much of our global energy usage is spent on poorly implemented ACPI code, Windows drivers, inefficient GPU drivers, etc...

Even better, how much energy is wasted per page view due to inefficient frontend web frameworks?

Seems to me that code is speech, and restricting what one can and can't do with silicon that one owns is absolutely ridiculous.

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by hjek on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:14PM (#27196778)
It's using more energy than most countries:

> Current estimates put bitcoin’s energy requirements at around 130 terawatt-hours (TWh) annually, which would rank it in the top 30 electricity consumers worldwide if it were a country.

Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/bi...

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by matheusmoreira on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:23PM (#27196966)
Not even 1%. The USA alone pollutes a ton more and is always utterly unapologetic about it. Historically I don't think they ever adhered to any global effort or treaty to reduce pollution. You have big entrenched organizations such as the oil industry doing far more damage and nobody messes with them. Not to mention the entire developed world's dependency on China for their borderline useless cheap consumer products.

This concern over the environmental impact of cryptocurrencies is utterly laughable when you figure out the real source of these problems. I guess they're just too powerful to be messed with.

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by hjek on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:43PM (#27197334)
> Nobody messes with them.

Well, some environmental activists try by turning off oil valves[0], just like environmental activists are upset with Bitcoin.

> You have big entrenched organizations such as the oil industry doing far more damage.

People who criticize Bitcoin for its environmental impact don't give a pass to oil companies. The issues overlap, like in Texas where they plug Bitcoin mining rigs straight into the oil well[1].

But I hear you. All big entrenched organizations must be held accountable. Of course.

[0]: https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/companies-dec...

[1]: https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/bitcoin-mi...

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by matheusmoreira on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:57PM (#27197566)
The problem isn't even bitcoin mining, it's pollution. The energy usage wouldn't matter at all if it was generated via renewable sources such as solar.

People who want to see real change need to deal with fossil fuels. Taxing mining operations will do absolutely nothing to solve the actual problems of this world.

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by blibble on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:25PM (#27197010)
it's not 1% of energy consumption... yet

there's every incentive for it to keep growing forever, which is what makes it dangerous

vs. there's only so much ice cream people can eat

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by jedimastert on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:03PM (#27196554)
> don't let perfect be the enemy of good

I don't think this applies to laws. In fact, I'd claim the opposite. Laws are something you REALLY want to get right

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by bidirectional on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:10PM (#27196704)
It applies to laws in the sense being discussed here. Ban X which is really bad while not banning Y which is totally unrelated but happens to be bad in the same way. Why does that need to be perfectly right?
Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by selfhoster11 on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:00PM (#27196489)
> Pass a law against proof of work crypto currencies, don't let perfect be the enemy of good, and deal with the next big waste of power when it comes about by passing a law about it.

If we won't legislate it now, it's possible we won't get a chance to do it later thanks to bickering from lobbyists and fossilised laws and practices. See IPv4.

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by gpm on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:45PM (#27197381)
You seem to be proposing that not passing a law against proof of work cryptocurrencies somehow makes it more likely that we will quickly pass a law generally "solving the climate issues" ... I think that is highly unlikely, and in fact I think the opposite direction is more likely, that passing a law banning PoW cryptocurrencies makes us more likely to pass another law which solves climate issues in other ways.

Banning PoW cryptocurrencies is not a big enough priority for anyone that it will be a motivating factor to move past the other issues surrounding the climate debate, especially not anyone on the side of "don't do [thing] to fix the problem". I don't see any other mechanism by which it makes passing other climate legislation harder.

Banning PoW cryptocurrencies removes money that is currently on the side of "don't pass climate legislation because it will harm my PoW cryptocurrency business" from the table. That makes passing future legislation easier.

In general, trying to solve all the worlds problems at once doesn't work. It's too complex, you paralyze the decision making body with too many tradeoffs. When something is obviously bad, banning it immediately not only has the effect of meaning it's gone immediately (and doesn't hang around until you solve the whole problem), but it simplifies the remaining problem for the decision making body. This makes them more likely to come to a consensus on exactly what to do in a finite amount of time.

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by jude- on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @01:02PM (#27197650)
> Banning PoW cryptocurrencies removes money that is currently on the side of "don't pass climate legislation because it will harm my PoW cryptocurrency business" from the table. That makes passing future legislation easier.

Does it? And, do you have data that backs this up? It stands to reason to me that PoW miners only want cheap power; they don't really care too much how it gets generated. Considering that the cheapest power source you can build out today is green energy, it sounds like a win-win to me for them to put their money into "advocate for more cheap power."

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by LudwigNagasena on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @01:43PM (#27198297)
> The law doesn't need to try and anticipate the actions that occur in the future

But that’s exactly what the law should do...

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by beaner on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @11:53AM (#27196362)
You answered literally nothing that the person you're responding to asked.
Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by mcdonje on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:02PM (#27196540)
They answered it. The person they were responding to was trying to broaden the scope too much. Many laws purposely have narrow scopes in order to handle problems that arise without setting too much precedent.
Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by beaner on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:10PM (#27196703)
They did not answer it. "Broaden the scope too much" - why? The question seems completely appropriate if you're actually trying to solve the climate problem. The response didn't address this, it targets crypto specifically, which makes it seem like the motivations are not climate but something else.

The question was about how to choose who is using too much and how, and the response was basically "don't think about it, we will exist in the future and can think about it then." But we exist now. And even if we were to wait, it's still a question we can answer now to have enacted later. The response provided was a bypass, a non-answer.

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by Garlef on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @11:57AM (#27196418)
You are right.

Instead, they explained why these questions are (partially) misguided.

That's also an answer.

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by beaner on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:02PM (#27196543)
They didn't do that either. It reads more like avoidance. The semblance of an answer by posting anything, rather than a plain, direct response. Which gives the original questions more weight: why were they not able to be responded to directly? Are the questions potent? Your reply here is just shifty on shifty.
Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by stale2002 on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:49PM (#27197452)
You really don't understand the problem with asking questions like "well who decides?!?" To literally every proposal of legislation ever?

Because that is what always happens. Every time someone make s a general proposal, for any law at all, there are people making the same old, dumb argument, of "well who decides?!?" Every single time.

Sure you do not believe that all laws ever are wrong, right?

Because the answer to this dumb question is the same as for every law ever. That makes it valid, unless you believe that all laws ever are bad.

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by beaner on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @01:36PM (#27198205)
I don't understand. We clearly have general laws like "don't shoot people," rather than 320 million individual laws like "John Edmund Smith IV of Springfield, Ohio cannot shoot people." And we didn't start with laws targeting individuals and then broaden it later. "Don't shoot people" was the proper, general rule that addresses the problem of shootings. Laws like this seem to be pretty effective and desirable. I don't know why we wouldn't take the same approach with something like carbon emissions.
Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by stale2002 on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @04:19PM (#27200476)
> And we didn't start with laws targeting

There are absolutely many laws, that are very targeted and specific. Were you unaware of this?

For a random example, there are laws that probably say something like "A truck, of this size, must follow these specific environmental regulations".

That would be a specific law, that applies to a truck, and required it to do a specific thing, like have a certain mileage efficiency, and it is not general. It is pretty specific, and it is not a general law that applies to all environmental related things.

The world is full of many specific laws, all over the place.

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by chii on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @11:58AM (#27196462)
> Pass a law against proof of work crypto currencies

once again, you have merely just assumed the role of arbitor. What makes this opinion better than the opposition?

What needs to be addressed isn't energy usage, but the cost of energy in the first place. Why isn't the fix be passing a law to tax carbon properly? Tax the externalities, and the rest would follow. I don't care if people burn up energy for crypto, as long as they pay for the cost properly.

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by gpm on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:04PM (#27196585)
> once again, you have merely just assumed the role of arbitor. What makes this opinion better than the opposition?

This is literally the role of legislators. What makes "my" opinion better, is in the event that this sort of legislation passed, the majority of the elective representatives in both houses agree we should ban proof of work crytpo currencies, nothing less, nothing more.

> [alternative proposal]

I mean, I happen to like this proposal too, but you haven't given any reason not to do both...

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by gamegoblin on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:08PM (#27196657)
I think OP is suggesting that a targeted ban on proof of work crypto will be more politically feasible -- particularly in the US -- than a carbon tax. Even the state of Washington (which is far more left/democratic/liberal than the US as a whole) failed to pass two different modest carbon taxes in recent years.

So while carbon pricing would be a more ideal solution, OP is suggesting that a targeted ban on POW crypto is a good-enough bandaid that might actually pass.

Re:Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge by Aeolun on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:04PM (#27196587)
> What makes this opinion better than the opposition?

Nothing about the opinion is better than any other. But the only thing we have to achieve is that it is a majority opinion, which frankly doesn’t seem all that hard to me.