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Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by erulabs on Saturday May 08, 2021 @02:56PM (#27089777)
It's generally accepted that cats were useful for early humans because we hoarded grain, and so the cats were anti-rat machines. The anti-snake traits of kitties may be an older and just-as-useful reason we tolerated (and loved) cats than just protecting grain storage.
Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by snickell on Saturday May 08, 2021 @03:26PM (#27089970)
Curiously, I have a cat Brownie who grew up feral in the high sierras and appears to have subsisted on snakes as food/prey. They're still his favorite prey.

Instead of startling, Brownie the mighty snake hunter reacts to cucumbers as: FAVORITE FOOD.

He gets a cucumber almost every day. He hunts the cucumbers, drags them to his lair, and consumes them leaving only a small trail of seed viscera behind in his cave.

He's been doing this before I knew about cucumbers scaring cats on internet, and I think lends credence to the hypothesis that cucumbers trigger a "snake recognition circuit": a cat raised to see snakes as food rather (vs the inborn threat response) reacts to cucumbers as food!

Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by jjoonathan on Saturday May 08, 2021 @07:22PM (#27091723)
Ha! Those recognition circuits are real. For us it was birds (quail). They were terrified of rolling balls -- basketballs, soccer balls, tennis balls, you name it, if they saw it roll they would make a special "emergency honk" and the entire group would freeze for the next minute. We had never seen that reaction before even though we raised them from eggs. They didn't ever do that as a reaction to people, they didn't do it in response to the neighborhood cat, and they didn't do it with explosions on TV (they quite liked those, actually). It was by far the strongest fear reaction we ever saw from them.

It took us a while to figure out why: it was probably a bird-of-prey detection circuit looking for gliding motion.

Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by akiselev on Saturday May 08, 2021 @04:42PM (#27090498)
That cats have a natural snake recognition circuit is news to me. Several more anecdotes:

A feral cat that gave birth in a family member's garage in east San Diego (not the sierras but mountainous at ~3k ft elevation) found a rattle snake on their property one time. I had to scare her away several times while running around looking for a bucket and some long sticks because she did not recognize the danger at all. It looked more like she was approaching a strange new male cat that was about to court her than a venomous snake

Regarding the cucumbers: another family member had a cat in Europe in a village around 56°N - which is near the upper limit for snakes, so he's unlikely to have ever seen any, let alone eaten one - and the cat loved cucumbers. They had a greenhouse and had to be extremely vigilant after picking cucumbers because the second they'd turn their backs the cat would proceed to take nibbles out of every single one of them in turn, even if he was given one of his own. I think your cat just likes cucumbers.

Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by steveBK123 on Saturday May 08, 2021 @09:41PM (#27092406)
Similarly have a lifelong memory of my cat when I was ~10 years old coming out of the woods with a 2-3ft snake sticking out of both ends of his mouth, proudly walking to the house with it.. and my mom screaming at him to put it down!
Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by Covzire on Saturday May 08, 2021 @10:27PM (#27092649)
> "cat would proceed to take nibbles out of every single one of them in turn",

Interesting, although I suggest it much more likely that this cat also really is triggering some kind of "snake recognition circuit", it seems to be driven by some desire to make sure each cucumber is "dead". If it were only about liking cucumbers you would expect it to gobble down the nearest delicious thing it sees, which in my own observation of the felis catus, this is their default behavior when there is favored food and no danger present, they tend to act like greedy vultures, though it differs from cat to cat.

Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by akiselev on Monday May 10, 2021 @04:29PM (#27110526)
> though it differs from cat to cat.

That's the problem: people are extrapolating species-wide behavior from a tiny sampling of an animal with high variability. Some feral sisters have set up shop on a family member's property and given birth to several litters so at this point I've got experience with two dozen cats over my lifetime. The natural variability in personality I've observed in three month old kittens raised in the same environment by two biological sisters (who themselves have vastly different personalities), is staggering. I have no freaking clue where people get most of their cat stereotypes.

> If it were only about liking cucumbers you would expect it to gobble down the nearest delicious thing it sees

Why? I can't imagine anyone in my family eating a cucumber after a cat has bitten it for sanitary reasons so I expect he quickly learned that the more cucumbers he nibbled on the more he got (these are home grown cucumbers, not the giant monstrosities in US supermarkets, so he'd want more than one).

Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by inopinatus on Saturday May 08, 2021 @08:11PM (#27091975)
For memetic reasons I immediately wondered if the same cognitive apparatus might be repurposed to identify hotdogs. No doubt specific areas of the brain are electrically involved, and monitorable via electrodes or more invasive probes. This suggests an opportunity to bring to market an efficient, self-cleaning, content filter engine employing a redundant array of cats; then further observe that caudal repositioning is an output property of tensor cats, making such an array the perfect vehicle to unlock the broader field of Feline Learning, with obvious opportunities for tail optimisation at runtime and dinner time.
Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by daveFNbuck on Saturday May 08, 2021 @09:59PM (#27092481)
It's not that cats are scared of cucumbers. It's that the cucumber is secretly placed close behind them while they're eating and vulnerable. It's like startling a person by sneaking up on them. That doesn't mean they're scared of you. They're just surprised.
Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by ChrisMarshallNY on Saturday May 08, 2021 @03:38PM (#27090044)
That's a cool story. Props to Brownie, but I hope he's fast enough to avoid being bitten by the few poisonous ones in the US.

In Africa, most of the storks ate snakes; including really deadly ones. They would stomp them to death. That would probably not work on pit vipers.

Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by serf on Saturday May 08, 2021 @07:02PM (#27091595)
>In Africa, most of the storks ate snakes; including really deadly ones. They would stomp them to death.

my pet goose does this as well with anything remotely snake-shaped.

She's used to it now, but she used to do the same hopping-dance every time she'd encounter a garden hose.

hop hop hop with her wings out to appear bigger while quickly snapping at the 'victim' with her beak and then darting to caution with her head while keeping her distance from it otherwise and continuing the stomp dance.

must just be a bird thing (the dance, not the anti-snake behavior), I have my doubts that her soft webbed-feet would do anything but perhaps scare an actual snake.

Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by trhway on Saturday May 08, 2021 @07:26PM (#27091744)
Our cat, who had never seen a real snake, was hunting "snakes" - my hand in cobra position or rubber/plastic toy snakes - in very distinctive "mongoose" like style - cautiously moving around and ultimately making a lighning fast jump just a bit from a side and biting the "snake" right below the "head". When it were a "standing cobra" - my hand wrapped in several layers of cloth for protection - the bite would be right below the palm, a very strong bite with the cat simultaneously wrestling my hand to the ground using his whole body.
Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by dboat on Saturday May 08, 2021 @04:22PM (#27090352)
I don't think there are any poisonous cucumbers in the us, his cat should be fine.
Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by astrange on Saturday May 08, 2021 @11:11PM (#27092893)
Some common foods like grapes are poisonous to cats (for unknown reasons), there might be some tube-shaped vegetables too.
Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by selimthegrim on Saturday May 08, 2021 @05:50PM (#27091072)
Has anyone worked out how cats react to vampire watermelons?
Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by ChrisMarshallNY on Saturday May 08, 2021 @04:47PM (#27090541)
I dunno. When I was a kid, they would freak me out...
Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by euroderf on Saturday May 08, 2021 @03:31PM (#27089995)
We "hoarded" grain because we transitioned from hunter-gatherers to an agro lifestyle in order to brew beer from that grain, so cats and beer are natural allies.
Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by tomnipotent on Saturday May 08, 2021 @05:12PM (#27090738)
Ships and distilleries also used cats to keep rodents at bay. The Glenturret distillery in Scotland even commissioned a statue of their cat Towser after her passing.

https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/09/09/347093135/...

Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by dylan604 on Saturday May 08, 2021 @04:25PM (#27090379)
I like your position that alcohol was the reason we switched to agrarian lifestyles.
Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by jasonwatkinspdx on Saturday May 08, 2021 @09:44PM (#27092419)
It's not a statement that should be taken any more seriously than a flippant quip in informal conversation.

The story of humans adopting farming is complex, happened multiple times in multiple places, and different societies had very different priorities, methods, and environments to work within. In that context, saying we all did it to get drunk is a bit nonsense.

One of the more interesting things you can read about is how we've found some neolithic settlements that practiced farming for a few centuries, before returning to nomadic hunter gatherer status.

It's pretty clear the primary motivation was simply maintaining caloric intake in changing habitats, not specifically brewing bear, though the Sumarians were quite into that. In fact the oldest remains of what we might call "beer" that have been found were essentially naturally fermented porridge: very thick in consistency. So it seems pretty clear the porridge came first, at least in the Levant.

Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by B1FF_PSUVM on Saturday May 08, 2021 @07:09PM (#27091645)
Sounds more plausible than "we did it for the porridge".

But probably because you could feed ten times the population, develop better tech, and pound to a pulp any neighbors who didn't follow suit.

Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by walshemj on Saturday May 08, 2021 @07:43PM (#27091842)
It and wine also killed bacteria in water so allowed larger communities to form.
Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by datameta on Saturday May 08, 2021 @11:11PM (#27092895)
In the middle ages beer watered down to .5-1% alcohol was had when water supplies could not be guaranteed to be fresh
Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by perl4ever on Saturday May 08, 2021 @11:23PM (#27092956)
You know, this is something people mention a lot on the internet since forever, and it reminds me of the assumption that mouthwash which is 20-25% alcohol must be for the purpose of killing germs.

However, I recently read something that claimed to debunk this, saying that even 50 proof is not effective at all at sterilizing things and it is merely a solvent for the active ingredients.

The reason I stumbled on it was because I'd been worrying about whether the alcohol free variants are effective, vs. alcohol potentially being a carcinogen.

So I think it's less obvious what effect 1% alcohol has than at first glance.

Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by datameta on Saturday May 08, 2021 @11:54PM (#27093088)
I did consider not posting that factoid. I had been a while since I double checked it. You're right, now that I think about it more. I'm inclined to no longer believe that statement to be true but I wonder if a single digit percentage of alcohol could be enough to stave off more advanced stages of exponential growth of bacteria for a meaningful amount of time like, say, a day.

Nevertheless: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_beer

Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by dylan604 on Saturday May 08, 2021 @11:34PM (#27093002)
I always thought they were watering the beer down so you could drink it in place of water so you wouldn't be inebriated after breakfast.
Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by gambiting on Sunday May 09, 2021 @03:21AM (#27093941)
It was debunked time and time again. People in ancient times drank water, it's just that reading ancient texts gave some historians the idea that people only drank beer, since that was the only drink they wrote about(well, along with wine). No one wrote about drinking water because there was no reason to write about it. But modern historians are very much certain that the "they only drank beer because it was safer" thing is a myth, we don't have any proof for that.
Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by fortyrod on Saturday May 08, 2021 @04:33PM (#27090430)
Ya, have a cat who took on 2 copperheads at once with great delight. I won't say I rescued him but I did get him out of there with some blood loss (mine). Maybe a study on the cat - mongoose correlation?
Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by sevencolors on Saturday May 08, 2021 @03:00PM (#27089803)
Indeed mine have anti-snake protection capabilities that also cover items such as nailfiles, pens, and plastic toy springs
Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by SwiftyBug on Saturday May 08, 2021 @03:24PM (#27089960)
My cat's anti-snake protection manifests as an extreme hatred of earphone wires
Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by dylan604 on Saturday May 08, 2021 @04:27PM (#27090398)
Lucky for your cat, headphones no longer need wires. In fact, I think Apple should include that in their marketing. "Not only have we reduced our packaging, we've also stop scaring your cats!"
Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by mhh__ on Saturday May 08, 2021 @06:50PM (#27091507)
Now your dog can eat the whole thing in one go!
Re:If I fits I sits: illusory contour susceptibility in dome... by SilasX on Saturday May 08, 2021 @09:43PM (#27092412)
I named one of my cats Cordie because she liked to attack the (very antique) N64 controller cords.