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Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by schnevets on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @02:27PM (#27040946)
I am frequently surprised by the number of "dead bedrooms" I know about among friends, and I sincerely believe the problem is the western world's secretly coy perception of sex. There is a superficial surface level that is extremely wrong (for example, Successful people have sex, the most successful people have the hottest sex with the hottest partners; Sex isn't about planning it's about letting the desire overcome you; Doing this thing will make you more desirable to your partner... unless you suck; All people are secretly kinky and the happiest people figured out what makes them tick), and then there is a deeper level of taboo that discourages any honest communication about sex.

There is no panacea to this problem because it involves mutual collaboration between both members of the couple. The things that seem to work (couples therapy, self-help books) only actually work because they spark a conversation. Regardless, it always seems to involve rejecting some of those superficial notions I listed above and acknowledging that 90% of the stuff you learned or assumed about sex is wrong.

I think this is a very Americanized perspective, though, so I would be especially interested in hearing perspectives from other cultures.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by graphtrader on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @05:26PM (#27043099)
I just don't think people value sexual compatibility enough.

If you aren't compatible sexually then you are not compatible.

I have been married twice. My first wife was practically my "soul mate", we had the same taste in everything. We were best buds, everything was perfect besides our sex life sucked. It always led to conflict and problems.

My wife now we have almost nothing in common when it comes to taste, art, music, hobbies, nothing. We have an amazing sex life though. I couldn't be happier.

That is not how it works in the movies. I am supposed to meet my first wife and live happily ever after. It is the difference between real life and fiction.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by e40 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @06:08PM (#27043488)
I just don't think people value sexual compatibility enough.

Agreed, but I think it's deeper: when I was in my 20's I didn't even know what sexual compatibility was. Given that, how could I even have made it a criteria for partner selection?

That assumes people figure out their sexuality. I've seen way too many people that didn't figure it out until their 50's. Like, "heterosexual until later in life" figure it out. And, there's an entire spectrum until that.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by supernovae on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @06:16PM (#27043556)
Not sure you ever figure it out, you just live it as you go along.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by e40 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @07:40PM (#27044248)
I agree. I think there's a long tail past a certain point, though. After a certain age, my preferences didn't really evolve much. Before that? Very rapidly, and much of it was just personal discovery.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by maest on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @05:40PM (#27043234)
I think some imortant parameters are: age when you started and ended first marriage, age when you started second marriage, current age.

I suspect sexual compatibility lowers in importance as people age.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by stevenicr on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @07:03PM (#27043947)
I had thought similar for some years / decades.. the past few years my views on older people having sex / not / alot etc have changed quite a bit.

Certainly there are some old couples that stay together without good sex for different reasons, religios beliefs and such...

But if you are an intimate couple - that includes sex. If you are not having sex you are just roomates / friends - and there is nothing wrong with that.

I know a few different people in thier 70's right now having really great sex because they have found new partners, and because it's great they are having a lot of it.

So it could be less important if both people's only goals are stability or other goals - however we are seeing from reports in retirement communities and nursing homes that whether it is the loss of partner through death or divorce or just ageing single into a new community of options - that people are indeed searching for sexual compatibility as they age - often times with many more partners later in life than mid-life.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by capableweb on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @05:51PM (#27043335)
The most parameters are: who you are as a person and all that comes with that.

Saying that this matters less when that, or you'll loose interest in sex as you grow older simply won't fit for a lot of people. But for a lot maybe it will.

But since all of this is such a inherently personal thing, its opinion around the world will be as divided as our own butts.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by piva00 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @03:20PM (#27041727)
> I think this is a very Americanized perspective, though, so I would be especially interested in hearing perspectives from other cultures.

I agree this is very Americanised, I can chime from two different perspectives and cultures: Brazil and Sweden.

Brazil is... Very Americanised, I believe that the same issues the USA has with sex are present in Brazil, it's expressed in some different ways but the underlying issues are more-or-less the same. Even though Brazil is seen through a very sexualised image from the outside, it's still a very conservative society where women are shamed for having sex.

Now for Sweden: I don't think anything you said really applies here, people are very open about sex, parents just consider it a natural thing and will allow their teenagers to have sex in their house, I heard stories from friends who had breakfast with the parents of a hook up after a night out, etc. There is very little taboo about sex here, even though not everyone is open to talk about it, the vast majority is completely fine with people having sex.

Which brings me to a point I don't really grasp how it happens, my sexual experiences here showed me that women suffer some similar issues as the women in Brazil: lots of them don't have good sex, not even with their partners, most of the times not due to a lack of communication but a lack of understanding from men. I've heard from girlfriends similar behaviour from men here as in Brazil, not the aggressive type but the lack of care about their needs, a lack of interest and curiosity in sex itself, to improve it, etc.

And then I don't know if this is something global and most men in the world are really that bad sex partners, it was really surprising to hear from Scandinavian women some of the same issues that girlfriends in Brazil went through. Not even counting the abuse, in Brazil it's much more extreme but I was surprised by how many of my girlfriends here had at least one instance of rape or sexual abuse, usually from partners.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by llampx on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @05:58PM (#27043395)
Men on the other hand are generally taught by society that good sex is entirely their responsibility, and that if the woman does not get off, it is their fault.

This is one of the reasons why men are hesitant to talk about sex. It is easy to talk about it if you can say "No I didn't enjoy it and it isn't my fault." and less so if you have to introspect. Thoughts like, is my penis big enough? Am I not lasting long enough? Am I good-looking enough? and other thoughts come unbidden to the subconscious.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by ethbr0 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @05:10PM (#27042958)
I typically don't talk about it here, but I'd say I've been part of a pretty sexually liberated community (US based) for... about 15 years.

Because of our educational focus, we had a high number of new people come through, learn and mature, and then go off to do other things. So I'd like to think I learned something watching the common arcs.

In American culture, there are two big hangups about sex: (1) nobody is comfortable admitting ignorance & (2) the former leads to nobody being able to communicate about anything sexual.

Essentially every critical sexual conversation is some variant of this: "I'm not sure about X. How do you feel about X?" "I've never tried X. Do you want to try it?" "I'm nervous, but I do. How about if we Y'd and Z'd to start?" "I don't think I'd like Y. What if we Y_1'd and Z'd?" "I'm up for that!"

Notice the numerous admissions of ignorance. Because real conversations start in truth, without judgement. And it's worth it, because that's how you get to the fun times. Either in or out of a relationship.

(And ironically, you know who is typically comfortable admitting ignorance? Those with the most experience)

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by AussieWog93 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @07:55PM (#27044375)
I don't know whether this is the case for everyone, but I've noticed that my wife's dissatisfaction tends to correlate very very strongly with periods where I'm completely exhausted.

I genuinely believe most men _want_ to satisfy their partners securely, in the same way that many working mothers _want_ to cook wholesome, healthy meals from scratch for their children, but after yet another stressful day we just don't have focus and energy required to show the love in that way.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by IkmoIkmo on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @05:37PM (#27043211)
> I was surprised by how many of my girlfriends here had at least one instance of rape or sexual abuse, usually from partners.

Same here, absolutely appalling. Whenever I speak about it with guy friends they don't quite believe me and try to rationalise it (which is a common response for me on many topics as well), often by arguing semantics of what is considered rape or abuse etc, or the integrity of the person in question.

I'm not sure what prompts this skepticism exactly. The friends I've discussed this with who are skeptical, tend to otherwise be quite understanding and well thinking individuals. It's a bit akin to my own first reactions to allegations of Chinese genocide against Uyghurs, the concentration camps, etc. That can't be... There's probably some nuance I'm missing. I was only convinced after reading more and being exposed to more information and evidence.

It's very hard to have these conversations with some guy friends as none of my female friends have wanted me to share any part of their experiences with anyone else. That makes it really tricky to convince anyone else of the veracity of their claims. If I could, I could say 'well it's actually my partner, who I fully trust, or my mother who is completely honest, or our mutual best friend for the past 15 years', people whom my friends also hold in high regard and believe at face value, like I believe them.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by GavinMcG on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @06:33PM (#27043704)
I don't think I've ever asked a woman older than her mid-twenties about her experiences without hearing about an instance of assault. Some serious, some not, but universal.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by sizzle on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @01:03PM (#27052538)
Pornography from a young age might be warping their perception of sex and what it’s supposed to look like making them unable to please a woman who needs time to warm up instead of going from 0-100 like men are portrayed as doing.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by poisonarena on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @04:47AM (#27047618)
I totally disagree with your view on Brazil, I have had lots of dates with many kinds of women and lived in Rio Comprido, and had a long term relationship and many friend in Brazil for a few year and I have found it is very acceptable to have had many partners for young women, and that "overly sexualized" image that is perceived from the outside is for the most part valid and people are much more open with their bodies, showing their bodies, and even hooking up with strangers. All you need to do is go to carnaval. Maybe some evangelical christians are like this but, even among them, I find many are sort of 'born again' after a fairly hedonistic lifestyle.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by piva00 on Thursday May 06, 2021 @05:13AM (#27060792)
Well, I lived from when I was born up to my 27th birthday in Brazil. I went to school in Brazil, I dated a lot of Brazilian women, I have two sisters in Brazil.

I don't want to dispute your anecdote but I feel I have a bit more hands-on experience with Brazilian society.

Don't compare Carnaval, a one-off whole-nation party week to how society really works on the day-to-day.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by MattGaiser on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @02:36PM (#27041097)
> I am frequently surprised by the number of "dead bedrooms" I know about among friends

I originally thought they were mostly an old people thing, but I am hearing more stories about it from friends. And we are mid 20s.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by Balgair on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @03:36PM (#27041925)
One thing to note is that birth-control may decrease libido in some women. The science is a bit mixed though.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/all-about-sex/201902...

As for the male side of things, I'm not sure if there is a environmental culprit like birth-control.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by willcipriano on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @04:58PM (#27042821)
Antidepressants and antianxiety medications decrease libido as well.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by robocat on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @05:27PM (#27043103)
Depression and anxiety usually reduce libido.

Edit: Also an unhappy relationship often can lead to poor sex, depression, and anxiety.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @05:36PM (#27043203)
Sounds like we need to address depression and anxiety with something other than drugs.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by supernovae on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @06:22PM (#27043602)
Shorter work weeks, universal healthcare, affordable housing, open borders, freedom to travel, less consumerism, more time for friends/family...
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by robocat on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @07:04PM (#27043955)
I thought countries that have most of those things seem to have as many problems with depression and anxiety?

And countries without those things perhaps don't?

Which are the correlations that actually matter?

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by supernovae on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @12:07PM (#27051726)
nah... go look up quality of life ratings and you can see these countries do great.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by tomp on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @08:11PM (#27044484)
I'm pretty sure that universal healthcare isn't compatible with open borders. Budgets aren't infinite.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by supernovae on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @12:06PM (#27051700)
Why do people assume open borders means freeloaders vs freedom?
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by tomp on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @01:45PM (#27053125)
As long as your country is offering something that 90% of Earth’s population lacks (access to high-quality free healthcare which is what people usually mean as “universal”) then, yes, you’re going to attract a lot of freeloaders.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by supernovae on Thursday May 06, 2021 @03:51PM (#27068295)
No, no you won't. You will attract people who are committed to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by jquery on Sunday May 09, 2021 @08:39PM (#27101360)
I wish I could believe this. Seems more like wishful thinking along the lines of America’s hubris that it could “bring democracy” to the Middle East.

There’s nothing magic about soil. You need to give time for waves of immigrants to integrate, or it leads to backlash and horrible people like Trump getting elected.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by prestigious on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @11:08PM (#27045747)
Open borders = unaffordable housing, no universal borders, less time for friends and family
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by jquery on Sunday May 09, 2021 @08:40PM (#27101367)
One of these things is not like the other, one of these things does not belong
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by lr4444lr on Saturday May 08, 2021 @09:44AM (#27087062)
What does open borders have to do with the other things?
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by proxyon on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @08:43PM (#27044705)
> open borders

No thanks. Feel free to go conduct extreme social experiments with your own life, not mine.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by amanaplanacanal on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @05:33AM (#27047909)
I wouldn’t call it extreme, as it has been done before. In the US, for example, borders were completely open for the first hundred years until anti-Chinese racism led to the passage of the Page Act in 1875.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by krrrh on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @07:33PM (#27044186)
Or maybe drugs that lead to insight instead of away from it.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by CRConrad on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @01:08PM (#27052619)
Also, you need to address birth control with something other than drugs.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by thrower123 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @11:06PM (#27045739)
Lack of sex causes depression and anxiety. It's a vicious circle.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by coldtea on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @06:38PM (#27043743)
Depression and anxiety even more so, modern work-life balance and social media too...
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by nradov on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @06:35PM (#27043718)
Exposure to phthalates reduces testosterone in both men and women, and thus lowers sex drive. Phthalates are widely used chemicals, primarily for softening plastic.

https://news.umich.edu/reduced-testosterone-tied-to-chemical...

That's not the only cause. Increased obesity levels also play a role. Probably other factors.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by krrrh on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @07:07PM (#27043977)
Widely and freely available HD porn too. It’s easier than ever for people to use it as a substitute, and it reduces the drive to seduce. It contributes to a downward spiral of satisficing.

Edit: Getting downvotes from folks in denial. I’m not making this stuff up, college students rarely used to have ED, now porn-induced ED is quite common. Many such cases! [0]

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5039517/

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by monort on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @01:31AM (#27046546)
From review you linked. Clearly this means research is conflicted on this topic.

Viewing Sexual Stimuli Associated with Greater Sexual Responsiveness, Not Erectile Dysfunction https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26185674

Is Pornography Use Associated with Sexual Difficulties and Dysfunctions among Younger Heterosexual Men https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25816904/

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by ClumsyPilot on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @07:40PM (#27044252)
I thought porn was supposed to make people into sexual deviants, which is it?
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by proxyon on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @08:42PM (#27044699)
It reduces the novelty of real sex and thus the arousal for it. Lots of studies on this.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by jjeaff on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @12:02AM (#27046044)
A common side effect of porn addiction is that the addict requires more and more extreme situations and stimulus in order to get aroused. So I would say that is sort of turning one into a sexual deviant.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by WalnutBoat on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @01:24AM (#27046505)
Would love to see any sort of actual studies on this, because I'm fairly confident it's false.

The argument at face value is a slippery slope, like "sugar triggers dopamine response in the brain in similar areas as cocaine, so any exposure to sugar eventually leads to someone consuming sugar at all times"

I think it's much more likely that people, in general, imprint sexual preferences around the time that they are becoming sexual in their teens, and that doesn't change much as they age.

Religion in the US tends to focus on "any exposure to porn makes you an addict," which is why I am assuming this is what you're trying to imply. If you want to play a semantics game "porn addiction is defined as" then I'd argue that the same people are -true- porn addicts at the same rate that people are -true- sugar addicts. So, not saying they don't exist, but are a significantly lower number of the population than US religions would have you believe.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by Shorel on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @04:07PM (#27055003)
Your opinion seems to come from the same school of thought that claimed cannabis consumption would surely lead to harder and harder drugs.

In fact, I have experienced the opposite: I do not enjoy any kind of "ugly", much less "extreme" porn. It turns me off.

The simplest kind for me, missionary position, or a girl alone, and that's it.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by throwaway1492 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @09:12PM (#27044923)
I have a dead post in this thread for basically the same thing, very odd reaction I don't understand.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by Viliam1234 on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @05:32PM (#27056079)
> it reduces the drive to seduce

Are you suggesting that the solution to dead bedrooms is increasing "drive to seduce" of the ones who complain?

I thought that many of them already have high drive that their partners don't reciprocate.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by AtlasBarfed on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @10:21PM (#27045439)
Stress is higher across the board as the middle class is wrung out of the economy and the gilded age begins again.

Even if it isn't fight-or-flight stress inducement, sheer business and exhaustion are also undeniably up.

All one has to do is look at the laundry list of economic differences (housing, health care, education, salary, etc) between the current generations and the boomers.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by schnevets on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @02:41PM (#27041183)
It was a trend that began in my mid 20s as well. I have also noticed women are more inclined to voice frustrations than my male friends. I guess I became more approachable after proposing to my now-wife (and the things I hear are G-rated compared to the things I hear secondhand from my wife)
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by colanderman on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @02:40PM (#27041161)
Yep same here (mid 20s-30s). I guess it shouldn't really be too surprising; young people often don't know what they really need and/or are capable of providing before diving headlong into an exclusive relationship.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by bigthymer on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @04:48PM (#27042695)
> I think this is a very Americanized perspective, though, so I would be especially interested in hearing perspectives from other cultures.

From my understanding, in Islam, sex is a normal, expected part of marriage. If one partner doesn't want to have sex, it doesn't give the other partner the right to demand it. Rather, if there is a lack of desire for sex, it is grounds for divorce.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by skinnymuch on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @05:48PM (#27043302)
Understanding of the original intent? Is this a thing in actual marriages of Muslims? I’ve never heard of any of this as a thing that is common knowledge. I could be out of the bubble though.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by Seattle3503 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @09:49PM (#27045200)
It was the same with the puritans. You had to produce children somehow.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by swiley on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @05:28PM (#27043120)
I used to think this (Americans don't have sex because they're shy about it) but the data says the opposite.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by schnevets on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @06:30PM (#27043679)
I'm curious about what data suggests this, since getting honest answers about sexual activity from the public is a famously difficult challenge.

As an entertaining example, Seth Stephens-Davidowitz's big data book Everybody Lies mentioned a study that asked people in the United States how frequently they had sex, and how frequently they practiced safe sex with a condom. If the resulting data was accurate and projected across the entire country, the United States consume 2.7 billion condoms a year... even though only 600 million condoms are sold in a year.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/06/our-searc...

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by inreverse on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @07:06PM (#27043968)
That seems like it could be an interpretation problem where the definition of sex changes to only include penetrative sex in the context of the safe sex question.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by proxyon on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @08:48PM (#27044739)
My hypothesis is that Americans are both hypersexual (due to media, porn abuse, etc) and thus deprived of good sex as a result of the over stimulation toward faked, idealized, porn-ified sex. I have no evidence for this, it is merely a hunch and seems to align with what I have heard from people who have moved here from other countries. My parents themselves were immigrants and were shocked at the hypersexuality when they moved here. Simultaneously to that, they were shocked you couldn't even see a boob on TV. The natural human body itself was censored but gigantic fake boobs and butts were plastered all over MTV and VH1, albeit clothed. They'd also never heard of the over emphasis and anxiety over penis size until they came here.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by muntzy on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @03:32AM (#27047161)
Cultural views on plastic surgery are critical here. I see a clear contrast between underlying beauty standard assumptions, like “you should look natural” vs “you should look like a sex machine”. both allow for a certain amount of body modification but one of them pushes for a transformation to bodily extremes. With the elevation of hip-hop culture and Kardashian-style ‘upgrades’ i think the US and canada are heading towards a culture where perfectly attractive people get tons of surgery, i think driven by anxious status seeking.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by rscho on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @06:01PM (#27043421)
I'll go on a limb assuming you don't have children yet.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by schnevets on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @06:39PM (#27043749)
I don't. But neither do those friends who speak about sexual incompatibility with the people that they love. Children are a completely new factor that this thread hasn't introduced, and I'm impressed by anyone who can make it work with a toddler. But for the most part, the demographic I'm talking about have no kids, live together, are financially comfortable, enjoy spending time together... and yet don't want to do it for some reason.